Why "What's it worth?" is tough.....

[Uncle Bob]

Seasoned vets of the hobby know that question can be maddening. The more complex an item (e.g. a complete car vs. a single component part) the more difficult it is to answer. The subjective nature of valuation can make it very complex. There are regional differences, misrepresentations, wild stories, and just plain crazy people. And then there's comparison of seemingly like products/items.

Given the two following examples I would imagine a person could get quite confused. The parts in question are two examples of unused 24 stud aluminum heads, one set are NORS aftermarket, the other genuine Canadian Ford. http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOS-Ford-fla...vip=true&rt=nc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1932-1934-19...vip=true&rt=nc

I've got a thing for aluminum flatheads, not completely rational as there are advantages to iron heads as well, just one of those "it is what it is" things. As a result I watch what's out there for the fun of it. Unless I'm missing something, over $1200 for the NORS set seems crazy high to me. $800 for the genuine Canadian heads is in line with the approximate market the past several years so no surprise there. But what makes the aftermarket ones go for some 50% more??! I'm just gonna chalk it up to there were a couple "nutso" bidders who were just going to not back down until too much blood was spilled. After all, that's what auctions are for. It was a good stroke for Michael, as I'm sure he got way more than he expected for them, but man..... I can imagine some newb having seen these and saying something like "Yeah, but I just saw............"

Hmmmm, maybe it's a good time to unload some '37 type 21 stud aluminum heads........

[Kube]

Uncle Bob,
As most folks with even a basic understanding of economics can figure, it's all about "supply and demand".
The Canadian heads are generally not worth as much as the domestic equivalent as the Canadian heads are much more common (+ supply). In addition, if one is doing a proper restoration on a domestic Ford, the Canadian heads would be of course improper and result in a point deduction (-demand).
The heads that Mike sold on eBay are in fact Ford (OEM) heads. They were available as an extra cost option. Having a stock 6.2 to 1 compression ratio these were available for all 85 H.P. equipped vehicles. Outwardly, the right (81A-6049B) and left (81A06050B) cylinder heads appeared nearly identical to the stock cast iron heads. These are, as one might figure, extremely rare heads (-supply / + demand).

[Uncle Bob]

Good to know, and a rational explanation. I would have expected a Ford logo on OEM heads, but that isn't the case here apparently.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Good to know, and a rational explanation. I would have expected a Ford logo on OEM heads, but that isn't the case here apparently.

Nope, no Ford logo. That small "A" is a good indication though.

I have always wondered why Ford made these. Being the same compression ratio as the stock heads, the only advantages I can think of are weight (who cared?) and better heat dissipation.
I can understand the cast and aluminum heads that were offered with higher compression but these???
Anyone have any ideas?

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Kube

Nope, no Ford logo. That small "A" is a good indication though.

I have always wondered why Ford made these. Being the same compression ratio as the stock heads, the only advantages I can think of are weight (who cared?) and better heat dissipation.
I can understand the cast and aluminum heads that were offered with higher compression but these???
Anyone have any ideas?

From an old "hot rodder's" perspective (mine), it gave us a perfect platform to easily polish and make shiney for today's iteration of a high-performance (hot-rodded) flathead...thank you, Henry! Realistically, probably not too many of these NOS (relatively high-dollar) heads going on high-point-resto engines, huh KUBE? DD

[Uncle Bob]

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Originally Posted by Kube

I have always wondered why Ford made these. Being the same compression ratio as the stock heads, the only advantages I can think of are weight (who cared?) and better heat dissipation.
I can understand the cast and aluminum heads that were offered with higher compression but these???
Anyone have any ideas?

Well, your first reply caused me to remember I had downloaded rumble seat's (rest his soul) pdfs in the past, so checked to see if anything explanatory was there. It appears these are pre-war 81a heads as well by his reckoning:
"The 81A heads (24 stud) came in either aluminum or cast iron. Both were rated
the same at 6.2:1 C/R. Both have right and left heads. The aluminum heads have
combustion chambers of 82cc for the right head (part #6049) and 84cc for the left
head (part #6050). The cast iron heads have combustion chambers of 79cc for the
right head (part #6049) and 81cc for the left head (part #6050). Interesting....
same C/R with different cc’s.... wonder if flat top versus semi-dome pistons
account for the variation?"

The larger chamber size for the aluminum is consistent with the 21 stud ('37-8) being lower compression than iron heads (supposedly for truck app, but I have a passenger engine with them, so.....?)

As for the original idea of the thread, you've demonstrated the effect of less common knowledge being useful in recognizing seemingly unusual market pricing.

[flatford8]

Another thing to watch on ebay when an item seems to be going for more than it's worth, is who's bidding on it. I've seen the same bidder bid against themselves till the item got up to a high price, then sometimes it doesn't sell and then gets listed again. The bidding seems fishy to me on some items......Mark

[Uncle Bob]

Actually if you bid "against yourself" using the same ebay I.D. it will show the extra bid but the dollar amount will stay the same as long as it has hit the reserve or there isn't one. Any additional amount you bid won't show until another bidder hits. Now, using a shill bidder or a different address is another story.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Well, your first reply caused me to remember I had downloaded rumble seat's (rest his soul) pdfs in the past, so checked to see if anything explanatory was there. It appears these are pre-war 81a heads as well by his reckoning:
"The 81A heads (24 stud) came in either aluminum or cast iron. Both were rated
the same at 6.2:1 C/R. Both have right and left heads. The aluminum heads have
combustion chambers of 82cc for the right head (part #6049) and 84cc for the left
head (part #6050). The cast iron heads have combustion chambers of 79cc for the
right head (part #6049) and 81cc for the left head (part #6050). Interesting....
same C/R with different cc’s.... wonder if flat top versus semi-dome pistons
account for the variation?"

The larger chamber size for the aluminum is consistent with the 21 stud ('37-8) being lower compression than iron heads (supposedly for truck app, but I have a passenger engine with them, so.....?)

As for the original idea of the thread, you've demonstrated the effect of less common knowledge being useful in recognizing seemingly unusual market pricing.

The few CC's in variation that were noted had more to do with manufacturing tolerance and perhaps the accuracy of the inspection process.

Both the cast iron and aluminum heads (6.2:1) had a factory dimensional tolerance of 78 - 82cc's.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

From an old "hot rodder's" perspective (mine), it gave us a perfect platform to easily polish and make shiney for today's iteration of a high-performance (hot-rodded) flathead...thank you, Henry! Realistically, probably not too many of these NOS (relatively high-dollar) heads going on high-point-resto engines, huh KUBE? DD

Coopman, I have no way to know how many of these may still be out there. I have seen only one other set in my 40 years of "playing" with prewar Fords. I have seen and owned numerous sets of the Canadian sets.

[Gary in La.]

I would expect that to use these heads on a 59 block that the valve pockets would need to be relieved same as the cast iron heads.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Gary in La.

I would expect that to use these heads on a 59 block that the valve pockets would need to be relieved same as the cast iron heads.

Without question.

[jimTN]

I have a set of real Canadian heads and they sure feel much lighter than the fake Canadian high compression heads made for round track engines. Also the stud bosses are not as high as the HC heads.