Toe-in Adj. tool

[bobmc]

It became very aparent to me today that my toe in needed better adjustment. After a day of enjoying the changing of the leaves on the back country roads in Westen PA I totaly shreaded a good tire.

When I put the front end together I attempted to check the toe-in with a wodden ruler. Thought It was close, I was wrong.

Any one have instructions on how to build a more accurate tool to measure the toe in?

Or If on could be purchashed?

I did a search and found nothing on the subject.


thanks

[160B]

Here are three photos of an alignment tool I built based on a design one of our club members came up with. Works great!!! I use masking tape on the tire and the edge of the tool. The ends of the alignment tool where it comes in contact with the tire are beveled so you get good contact with the tape on the tire. This is where I make my mesurement with a small scale.



hope this helps

[Randy in ca]

There's a bunch of info in this thread:

http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74237

[Jerry Parr WI]

The tool is called a "Duby Wheel Alignment Gauge." A Google search will get you several suppliers. Still made exactly like the the one in the Ford Service Bulletins. Price $70. to $100. depending on the supplier.

[J Franklin]

I have used the Duby gauge and it worked great. Don't smoke a duby before using the Duby or everything gets messed up.

[zzlegend]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

I use a flat style spring loaded curtain rod, With a seamstress cloth measuring tape that has a sticky back and attach that to the curtain rod. Easy to install in the front of the tires and read, and then place in the back and read. Is it high tech? Not really but gets it close enough for me. Just a thought.

[J Franklin]

Toe at 1/16 +- 1/32, Close enough.

[DosCoupe]

Recently, I asked some question about 1932 Ford front end specifications and got a lot of great answers. The local Ford garage dialed my front in at 1/2 degree - laser methodology. Tires are now wearing even and we track much better in a cross wind. Mine had too much tow out, with similar disatrous tread wear.

[1931 flamingo]

1/2 degree of what??
Paul in CT

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by bobmc

It became very aparent to me today that my toe in needed better adjustment. After a day of enjoying the changing of the leaves on the back country roads in Westen PA I totaly shreaded a good tire.

When I put the front end together I attempted to check the toe-in with a wodden ruler. Thought It was close, I was wrong.

Any one have instructions on how to build a more accurate tool to measure the toe in?

Or If on could be purchashed?

I did a search and found nothing on the subject.


thanks

Unless both tires wore equally (and similarly) you need far more than a toe-in adjustment! It sounds like you have a badly bent front axle.

[Gary WA]

Originally Posted by bobmc

It became very aparent to me today that my toe in needed better adjustment. After a day of enjoying the changing of the leaves on the back country roads in Westen PA I totaly shreaded a good tire.

When I put the front end together I attempted to check the toe-in with a wodden ruler. Thought It was close, I was wrong.

Any one have instructions on how to build a more accurate tool to measure the toe in?

Or If on could be purchashed?

I did a search and found nothing on the subject.


thanks

NAPA Auto parts have them. Have stock number if needed.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Someone recently posted that he pushes 2 straight pins into tire tread, measures between them, rolls car forward, and measures again! NOT BAD!
I think I read somewhere that the measuring point should be 11" above the floor. Saw a pic of some brand name, spring loaded toe in guage that goes between the tires, and it had 2 skinny 11" chains dangling, that guaged the proper height. Bill W.

[Blessyouboys]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Someone recently posted that he pushes 2 straight pins into tire tread, measures between them, rolls car forward, and measures again! NOT BAD!
I think I read somewhere that the measuring point should be 11" above the floor. Saw a pic of some brand name, spring loaded toe in guage that goes between the tires, and it had 2 skinny 11" chains dangling, that guaged the proper height. Bill W.

It's six inches above the floor, not eleven.

http://abarnyard.com/workshop/align.htm

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Someone recently posted that he pushes 2 straight pins into tire tread, measures between them, rolls car forward, and measures again! NOT BAD!
I think I read somewhere that the measuring point should be 11" above the floor. Saw a pic of some brand name, spring loaded toe in guage that goes between the tires, and it had 2 skinny 11" chains dangling, that guaged the proper height. Bill W.

Years ago we just used a 2 x 10 inch by 8 foot plank of lumber and some chalk marks on the tire and on the board. Jacked the front end up just enough to rotate the front tires and you would put the 2x10 plank in the front of the tire and chalk both tire and board. Then rotate the tire to the back direction and move the plank so you can line up the chalk marks. On guy using this method had put in finishing nails into drilled holes in the plank and used them with the center groove of the Firestone tires. Worked well for us to get good wear on the front tires.

While the front end is still jacked up you can also pull a tight string from the back of the back tire all the way up to the front end of the front tire. Move the steering wheel for best alignment. If one side has both tires touching the straight string on both sides of both tires you can then go to the other side of the car and do the same. It should be off but it will give you a visual on how much you maybe towed in or out...

We were not trying to be laser precise but it worked for us.

I also like to rotate the tires yearly in a X pattern RR to LF, etc...

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Blessyouboys

It's six inches above the floor, not eleven.

http://abarnyard.com/workshop/align.htm

Blessyouboys,
Thanks for the correction I just told the Dog to help me remember that! LOVE THAT DOG! Bill W.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Blessyouboys

It's six inches above the floor, not eleven.

http://abarnyard.com/workshop/align.htm

I think folks don't think to click on links that are posted. I put that page up 14 years ago and many have never seen it!

[marc hildebrant]

Marco,

I read your posting and found it very helpful when I adjusted toe-in.

Marc

[Purdy Swoft]

Snyders has the tool listed on page A-103 of their 2012 catalog. Part number A-3282 and the price is $27.95 it comes with instructions. this is the type that I use. I got mine in the ninties and I believe the price has gone up. Its still less expensive than having the toe in set at a shop, if you want to do the job yourself.

[jkeesey]

I have the same tool purdy mentioned. It works like a charm, and is easy to handle. A lot of the older styles are kinda heavy and cumbersome.

[Gary WA]

NAPA Part no. 807-2000 Alignment Gage.

[Ned]

Always roll the car forward, not back, between the first and second measurement.

[scott30]

Originally Posted by Gary WA

NAPA Auto parts have them. Have stock number if needed.

I would like to have the NAPA part number.
Thanks.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by scott30

I would like to have the NAPA part number.
Thanks.

As Gary posted,

NAPA Part no. 807-2000 Alignment Gage.

[Jason in TX]

I wish I had a picture, but I made one with a piece of conduit pipe and a stick of rebar.

Insert rebar into conduit. I drilled and tapped the wall of the conduit so I could put a locking bolt in the side to hold the rebar.

Manually roll the car forward on level ground to get the tires to naturally track. Measure the front of the wheels with the expanding rebar/conduit tube and lock the nut, then move it to the back of the tires and make sure you have about a 1/8" gap either side of the bar.

I like the expanding curtain rod idea above, as well as a shower curtain rod would work, but that would cost money and I just used what was laying around.

I got the idea from here: http://jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170197

[larrys40]

These are the best kind... at least in my opinion. They are like the ones sold by KR Wilson... and I just bought one at Hershey this year. BTW.. I tried to call these folks and couldn't get them, dropped them an e-mail. Napa doesn't have them in their system by the number or description given above.
Larry S.

[Gary WA]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Originally Posted by larrys40

These are the best kind... at least in my opinion. They are like the ones sold by KR Wilson... and I just bought one at Hershey this year. BTW.. I tried to call these folks and couldn't get them, dropped them an e-mail. Napa doesn't have them in their system by the number or description given above.
Larry S.

That came off my invoice from 2006. Sorry! ask for wheel alignment Guage.

[Gary WA]

Discontinued Item at NAPA>

[Jerry Parr WI]

Here is a supplier. Think I ordered mine some time back from Amazon.com

http://www.toolsource.com/duby-wheel...e-p-58507.html

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Jason in TX

I wish I had a picture, but I made one with a piece of conduit pipe and a stick of rebar.

Insert rebar into conduit. I drilled and tapped the wall of the conduit so I could put a locking bolt in the side to hold the rebar.

Manually roll the car forward on level ground to get the tires to naturally track. Measure the front of the wheels with the expanding rebar/conduit tube and lock the nut, then move it to the back of the tires and make sure you have about a 1/8" gap either side of the bar.

I like the expanding curtain rod idea above, as well as a shower curtain rod would work, but that would cost money and I just used what was laying around.

I got the idea from here: http://jalopyjournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=170197

The point many folks are missing is that most wheels have more wobble in them than the toe-in spec. Moving ANY gauge from one position on the wheel/tire can change your center lines so much that the measurement can actually end up providing slight toe-out or excessive toe-in. That is why the original method is by far the best. Toe-in affects both vehicle tracking and stability as well as tire wear.

[Jerry Parr WI]

Expanding on Marco's comment the factory spec for wheel wobble is 1/8 in. So without considering any tire variations or out of spec wheels the static front to rear measurement can be off by as much as 1/4 inch. The Duby gauge eliminates the wheel wobble and tire variation resulting in a correct toe in setting even with a bent wheel. You can also compensate for wheel wobble by spinning the wheel and scribing a line on the tire. The static measurements then can be taken from the scribe line.

[Smitty]

I bought one last spring, found it online after much searching. They are still available, if I can find the order I placed I will post the location. The price for the same tool can vary considerably so search around.

[Smitty]

Here you go:
http://www.ntxtools.com/network-tool...361-p-WAM.html

Steve

[160B]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I bought one last spring, found it online after much searching. They are still available, if I can find the order I placed I will post the location. The price for the same tool can vary considerably so search around.

I looked at the web site and their claim is seen below in quotes. My question is how does this work when it contacts only one wheel???
“One of the most accurate and inexpensive toe gauges on the market today
· Gauge makes contact with only one wheel and therefore is not subject to error
· Contact is made while the two spots are in a position, in front of the axle where
the dial is set at zero. The gauge is left in position while the car is rolled
forward a certain amount to bring the gauge and the two spots into a
corresponding position, in back of the axle where the reading is taken.
· If the gauge should be placed against any irregularity at the front, it will not
cause an error because the same irregularity will be moved with the gauge to
the back, where the reading is taken. As the gauge is not touched by the
operator between the setting and reading, contact with the wheels is sure to
be exactly the same in both positions"

[Bob C]

It's a misprint, if you go to the Wheel-A-Matic site it says "Makes contact with only one spot
on each wheel" http://www.wheel-a-matic.com/page6.html

Bob

[700rpm]

I made one out of 1/2" copper tubing and 1/2" wooden dowel. It works OK, but takes some care. I think I'll get the Snyder's tool.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Always make sure you have NO "slop" in your front wheel bearings as this can FOIL your attempts at getting proper toe in! Also, after resetting toe in, look often at the tire tread & see if it's "scuffing" from the outside in, or from the inside out. Hopefully it will be wearing smooth & even. Bill W.

[RonC]

here's one on ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Toe-Measurin...164c86&vxp=mtr

[Will N]

I've used the string method. Tie a long string to an outside spoke on the rear wheel just below the running board and attach the other end to a jack stand at the same height that you put a couple feet in front of the front tire with the string stretched tight. Move the jack stand so that the string just touches either the outside front or back outside sidewall of the front tire, and then move the steering wheel so that both the front and the back sidewall of the tire are just touching the string. What you've done here is gotten one front wheel pointing straight ahead. Then attach a string to the rear wheel on the other side, stretched out taught like the first string a couple feet in front of the other side's front tire. Move the jack stand until the string just touches the rear outside sidewall of the front tire. There should be a 1/16" gap between the string and the front of the tire if you're toe in is correct..

[mrraford]

I'm a visual learner. After several failed attempts at using similar tools, I took my car to a local truck alignment shop. For $30 the guy that runs Acme Wheel Alignment was delighted to set the toe in precisely. I have not had any problems since then.

[J Franklin]

The shop can straighten a bent tie-rod too, no trouble for them.

[J Franklin]

Was that at a Ford dealership?

[ford31]

I use local tire shop they check everything

[marc hildebrant]

My experience with local tire stores for Model A work was not good. The major chains and the local garage all told me that they could not check the toe-in on my car. Most of the reasons were that they didn't want to scratch the paint !

I decided that I would check it myself, and after using the instructions from the Ford service bulletins/Marco's web site, I did it myself.

The driving improved after the adjustment and I have more hands on experience with my car.

Marc

[Jerry Parr WI]

Originally Posted by 1930 coupe

another heads up
The scale on the Duby is not calibrated for a Model A Ford, it is calibrated to show the amount of toe-in or toe-out on the tread at hub level with a 8 inch chain on a modern car. Shorten the chain to 6 inches and mark the scale at 1/16 inch with a ruler, notice 1 inch on the ruler is not the same as 1 inch on the scale.

The toe in spec is given at hub level or the center of the wheel. The gauge indications are intended to compensate for the fact that you are not measuring at the center of the wheel so they are not ruler measurements. Changing the chain length would also affect that compensation. The shorter the chains the more compensation necessary. At true wheel center no compensation is necessary so ruler measurements would apply.

[Purdy Swoft]

You can't measure the rear of the wheel- tire toe in any higher than the level of the wishbone-radius rod. Wheel and tire size will also effect the distance from the floor . I set mine at the level of the wishbone. The center of the hub would be optimum. If the frame is sagged or the motor mounts are allowing the engine to ride low, it will effect the level of the wishbone and the outcome of any adjustments that are made . Common sense tells me that there is No exact level from the floor that will be correct in all cases, Too many varyables.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Dang! just found why I walk funny & run over stuff, scuff marks on my shoes are from the INSIDE to the OUTSIDE! Is that "TOE OUT"??? How can I correct it??? Bill W.

[Blessyouboys]

Originally Posted by 1930 coupe

I am confused, I agree the spec for modern cars is at the center of the wheel. Is the 1/16 inch on a model A at the hub or 6 inches from the floor. I looked at Marco's instructions and it seems the 1/16 is at 6 inches. I am confused and need help.

The measurement is at 6 inches above the floor.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Jerry Parr WI

The toe in spec is given at hub level or the center of the wheel. The gauge indications are intended to compensate for the fact that you are not measuring at the center of the wheel so they are not ruler measurements. Changing the chain length would also affect that compensation. The shorter the chains the more compensation necessary. At true wheel center no compensation is necessary so ruler measurements would apply.

The problem with attempting to compensate AS IF you were setting at the center of the wheel is that you would need various chains for different wheel/tire sizes based on the outside diameter.

Below is pic of the tag from my original gauge. Have you seen an original done differently?

[Jerry Parr WI]

Originally Posted by 1930 coupe

I am confused, I agree the spec for modern cars is at the center of the wheel. Is the 1/16 inch on a model A at the hub or 6 inches from the floor. I looked at Marco's instructions and it seems the 1/16 is at 6 inches. I am confused and need help.

The service bulletin gives the toe in spec with no mention of any special location so the assumption has to be to common standard which is wheel center. The reason for measuring below center as Purdy states is to clear suspension hardware. The Duby gauge was designed to read below center and compensates for the distance from center with the gauge that reads toe in inches not true inches. The chains can be any length so long as the gauge compensates for that length. I agree Marco's explanation seem to indicate otherwise but the reference does not indicate that the dimension or gauge are other than standard. Hopefully he will weigh in with any other source. The Duby gauge assumes some wheel height to the center so some compensation for height may be warranted. The service bulletins are from 1928 so it's possible a 19 inch wheel would be slightly different. I did make a quick check of some moderns for reference. The center of an Escape is exactly the same as a 19 inch Model A, a Mustang is lower and my truck is higher. I don't have a car with 21 inch so I can't check that.

[Purdy Swoft]

I realize now that differenmt tools for setting toe in have different instructions for their use. Mine is just a cheap one and not like the original design. I won't bother to go out to the shop and copy the instructions. No harm meant.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by 1930 coupe

Just a heads up.
Brown Truck delivered my Duby Wheel Alignment Gage today, the chains are supposed to be 6 inches long, mine were 8 inches long, took out a couple of links and the dog's tail started wagging. If you have a Duby you need to check your chains.

Hey Coupe,
You gotta' smart dog, too! When Chief got a "new" Model A going, after a 16 mile trip to town on the smooooth highway, he'd look at the front tires for wear/scuffing, then decide if he needed to go to Buddy Bogg's Local Unauthorized Ford Place for some alignment "TWEEKING!" Then off to"The Little Gem Cafe" for Chicken Fried Steak! Bill W.

[Jerry Parr WI]

Originally Posted by Marco Tahtaras

The problem with attempting to compensate AS IF you were setting at the center of the wheel is that you would need various chains for different wheel/tire sizes based on the outside diameter.

Below is pic of the tag from my original gauge. Have you seen an original done differently?

Thanks Marco that does explain your calculations based on your gauge. The attempt to compensate must be a later gauge feature. A question now is are you indicating the specification is intended to be at the 6 in point or at the center of the tire?

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by Jerry Parr WI

Thanks Marco that does explain your calculations based on your gauge. The attempt to compensate must be a later gauge feature. A question now is are you indicating the specification is intended to be at the 6 in point or at the center of the tire?

The very first entry in the Bulletins on this subject provides a measurement for toe-in and shows how to use the gauge at 6" from the floor. For that reason I was always convinced that the given measurement was specifically for that location.

I reviewed some of my material again and did SEVERAL calculations to see how it played out and it's pretty clear my assumptions were correct. First, the camber calculates out to 2 degrees +/- (per wheel) when the cars were new based on measurements provided. Now, when Ford implemented the use of alignment equipment in 1936 they specified a MAX camber of 2 degrees on Model A's and many other models. They specified the toe-in at 3/32" which is very close to what I suggest on my page for taking the measurement at the tire tread fore and aft of the centerline.

In addition to the measurement provided in 1936 they included a footnote regarding toe-in and stated that toe-in is directly relative to camber which I had also read in my old Dykes manual. Ford stated that for all models as of 1936 the the toe-in should be 1/10 of the camber. That would mean when they were new the toe-in would have been at .2 degrees per wheel. I'm emphasizing "per wheel" in case anyone else wants to run their own calculations to confirm. When specific dimensions are provided as in the Bulletins they include the total difference between the two wheels. That difference must be divided by 2 before converting to degrees.

As a final note, in 1936 Ford specified a minimum camber of 1/4 degree was acceptable as long as there was no more than 1/4 degree difference AND the right wheel never has more camber than the left wheel. If one had the minimum camber the proper toe-in with my Duby gauge would be 1/128" or essentially zero. I bring this up because most folks probably have 1 degree or less on their camber so maximum tire wear would require a reduction in toe-in from the new car specification .

[tony1940]

Originally Posted by DosCoupe

Recently, I asked some question about 1932 Ford front end specifications and got a lot of great answers. The local Ford garage dialed my front in at 1/2 degree - laser methodology. Tires are now wearing even and we track much better in a cross wind. Mine had too much tow out, with similar disatrous tread wear.

Local Ford garage that does Model A's or any car? TIA

[Chuck Kuntz]

That 2 common pin method was mine.. I have never had any problems with it. Been doing it for over 60 years.
Chuck

[Afordman31]

This is the one I made. I use two straight pins pushed in the tread, set the pointer on the toe in fixture, push the car forward so the pins are on the front side of the tire, move the toe in fixture to the front of the tire and see the difference whether to toe in or toe out!
I have used this on four Model A's and have been very satisfied!

[katy]

Toe-in plates work pretty good.

[Gwill65074]

I used a 1" round spring loaded curtain/shower rod and it works just great. Kinda like yor flat rod.