At my wits end, with this no-start problem!

[Bobs29ModelA]

Believe it or not, I'm STILL having a no-start issue with my '31 Coupe, after 3 months of working on it! Here's the scoop:

- When I first test-drove this car, it was starting and running just fine
- As soon as it was delivered to my home, however, the car would suddenly only crank, but would not even attempt to start
- I checked and verified all timing, compression readings, electrical connections, proper gas flow, etc... no problems were found and everything seemed to be properly set
- During the first month of this no-start condition, I tried replacing the 6-volt battery, installing a brand-new Tillotson carburetor, converting to a new 6-volt positive-ground alternator; installing new points, cap, rotor and wires; I tried different coils, wires, spark plugs, etc... yet, I still had a weak spark
- I then tried bypassing the power wire from the armored cable, and instead ran power from the ignition switch directly to the points in the distributor
- The car suddenly started (instantly!) and it ran fine this way for a full week... Subsequent starts continued to be just as instantaneous. However, on the way home from it's first real 20-mile outing, it suddenly started misfiring and running poorly again, backfiring a lot in the process
- The car ran poorly again the next day, and then finally stopped running for good, leaving me stranded on the side of the road
- Since then, I've tried upgrading to a new Weber downdraft carb and electric fuel pump system, along with a new manifold and gasket (to cure a leak I'd found), and I also upgraded to an FSI Ignitions pointless distributor with a mechanical advance. Still, no start!
- Thinking it might possibly have a "floating ground" issue, I replaced the positive battery cable with an original-style copper-strap type, but first polished the mounting-bolt area to a chrome-like shine with my Dremel tool. I then added a ground-strap from that very same frame crossmember to the left-hand frame rail... again polishing all connection spots with the Dremel tool. I then added a final ground-strap from the left-hand frame rail to a polished spot/bolt on the engine block. Impedance readings from the battery to the frame and body show perfect continuity readings... yet, the car still refuses to start and still exhibits a weak spark!
- I worked with the owners of FSI Ignitions, who were great with their technical help, and they ultimately sent me another new pointless distributor, in case their unit was defective... yet, the new unit has made no difference; the spark continues to remain weak, and the car still refuses to start!

I'm running out of options here.... does anyone have any more suggestions for something I may not have checked yet? H-E-L-P!

[Mike V. Florida]

Ok there are only a couple of things that an engine needs to run,

Fuel
Air
Compression
Spark
all that the right time.

So the first thing you need is to solve the weak spark problem. Without a good spark you will have a poor running engine if it runs at all.

I know that you have received another distributor but that does not mean it is a good one.

One of the guys in our club bought the "Zipper" from FSI. Although the spark was good, to get the engine to run well he had to throw away the instructions and play with the cam setting. Moving it a little at a time in each direction until it would run well. I'm sorry but I don't remember in which direction he had to move it, advance or retard.

What does the resistance read from the distributor body to the battery ground? Maybe corrosion in the head?

[quickchange]

check the terminal box. loose wires, nuts, some of the repo one have been known to short out via the bolts that hold the wires AT THE BACK. Sounds like something is earthing out , ok when new , now paint has worn & is shorting out. let us know what you find, Derek fro sunny Nelson now the snow has gone,

[sturgis 39]

The distributor has to be grounded to the engine. I would polish the bottom of the distributor and the top of the head where the distributor sits. Paint can act as an insulator when you do not want it to be an insulator.

The wire in the cable from the ignition switch to the distributor is from the coil and not from the battery. Running a wire from the battery to the distributor will by pass the coil. The coil power is direct from the battery with no switch. Model "A"s are wired a little different than modern cars where the ignition switch turns power on to the coil. The "A" switch completes the circuit from the coil to the distributor points. I do not know why Ford wired the ignition switch this way.

I had a problem with a wire that looked good. The wire was broke inside the insulation and would make contact when it pleased. I took a long time for me to find the problem and I was frustrated and could not believe I found the problem.

I read you post again and you did the jumper wire correctly. I wish you had a Model "A" friend that lived close to you. I can understand your frustration. Lucky for you Model "A"s are cool even if they do not run.

[Bobs29ModelA]

One of the things I forgot to mention is that, in addition to all the other ground-straps I installed, I also ran a ground strap from the distributor body itself directly to the engine block (to insure a good distributor ground), and then again from the right-hand side of the engine block to the body of the car, as well as to the frame on the right-hand side. Everywhere I test it, I have virtually no resistance, thereby indicating a very good ground between the battery and all components.

And, although all of the older wiring tested good, I went ahead and replaced most of it with brand-new modern wiring of the proper gauge, in order to eliminate the "broken but hidden" wire issue.

[pooch]

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1. check charging voltage for burning points.

2. hook a timing light to coil wire to verify faulty spark.

[jerry shook]

I had the same problem . Run a wire from your ing switch to the battery .fixed mine. Electronic ing needs at lease 7 amps to crank.

[Bill Goddard]

One thing you might not have done - check to see if your pig tail wire in distributer is grounding out on the coil spring between the plates. Sometimes in effort to clear the distrib side wall the wire terminal is turned too far inward and touches the spring.

[Robert]

Mr. Shook is correct, the electronic distributors need a dedicated power source.

[Cajun]

You may want to pull the distributor cap and make sure the rotor is turning.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Don't take this the wrong way, but you spent a lot of money fixing what wasn't broke and have complicated the diagnostics, if not adding to the problem. With electronic ignition and changes in the ignition switch and wiring we can't give you the stock Model A diagnostics.

In the third statement, you mentioned doing many checks, but I didn't see "checking for a good blue 1/4" spark" mentioned.

When you say you have a weak spark, what is weak? Compared to modern cars with HEI all older cars have a weak spark, but if you have at least a 1/4" nice blue spark when holding the coil wire 1/4" from a head nut, then you have enough spark to run fine. Since checking for this good spark is the easiest check to make I'd do that first.

I'm wondering if a bad condenser wasn't the initial problem, but with all the changes made, it hard to know what's going on now. With an original Model A that quits running, there are basically 3 things to think of as a cause.
1. Did you loose spark?
2. Do you have gas in the intake?
3. Did the cam gear strip?

Just pull the distributor cap to see if the rotor is turning to verify the cam gear is OK.
Pull the choke and crank the engine for a few compression strokes and you should see gas dripping out the carb inlet. If you have gas dripping, then you should have enough fuel for at least some firings of the cylinders.

Is there no one near you that can help check for the problem? It's so much easier in person than over the phone or internet.

[Bob from Northport]

Tom, you said it!! Get back to the Model A!! Check the underside of the rotor for a crack from the brass outer tip to the inner shaft mounting area.

[V4F]

i had a simular problem . it turned out the hot wire to the points (under the point plate) was to close to the bottom plate causing it to short out intermittantly . i just bent it away from the plate maybe 1/8 " & all was good ............... steve

[Jim/GA]

Originally Posted by steve norcal

i had a simular problem . it turned out the hot wire to the points (under the point plate) was to close to the bottom plate causing it to short out intermittantly . i just bent it away from the plate maybe 1/8 " & all was good ............... steve

That might have been the problem 3 months ago, but he has changed out so many things now that there is no telling what is wrong now.

"Weak spark" might have been something as simple as wrong coil for the voltage of the car, or coil polarity hooked up backwards.

[Jynx]

Did you change your coil wire,,caused me problems for a while

[Gary WA]

My guess was condenser also! BUT you have made many updated changes and may be hard to diagnose. How about changing back to a standard Model A set up including Alt to gen. points cap rotor etcetcetc. and see how it goes! Best of luck!

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Is there no one near you that can help check for the problem? It's so much easier in person than over the phone or internet.

You should get someone out there. With as many A's as there are, there must be a club or another A in your vicinity.

An experienced mechanic can see, feel, smell and hear things that you might not be relating. Long distance communication is very limited in effectiveness. I had a similar incident where the guy was struggling for weeks with a no start, and I found the problems (there were 2 interacting) in less than 5 minutes . He had not accurately described the symptoms because, being unfamiliar with an A, he did not notice them and was chasing one theory while not seeing a few facts. Sometimes another perspective is needed to break away from a theory that is not working.

[Bob C]

What kind of ignition switch to you have? Some of them are to
long and can rub on the gas tank behind the instrument panel
and short out.

Bob

[Bobs29ModelA]

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions and advice. Yes, it is no secret that I have changed-out a lot of things, all to no avail. However, all of the suggestions made in the last batch of posts have already been tested and/or otherwise checked, with good results. I should clarify that, when it was actually running for a few days, that was back on the original distributor with points... and only after I had bypassed the original armored cable set-up... because I had at first found the exact situation that "Steve Norcal" found... that is, that the "the hot wire to the points (under the point plate) was too close to the bottom plate causing it to short out", due to over-tightening of the armored cable. Once I did the bypass and got it running, I used a clear distributor cap on it and I could see that it had a very hot blue spark going on inside the distributor... the hottest it had ever been. A few days after that, it died on me again and has not run since. That was why I had decided to try going to an electronic distributor system and the Weber carb system... to try to get to something that was (theoretically) more reliable and less troublesome. I have since tried putting it all back to stock again, and yet it continues to refuse to start.

To answer some of the other suggestions... I do have power to the ignition switch (a new one) running directly from the battery post, as the instructions required. And, I've even tested it with the switch hanging down (away from the gas tank) but there was no difference, nor are there any signs of it ever shorting to the tank (due to the fact that I have it heavily-wrapped in electrical tape, as insurance). I've even tried it with the (new) ammeter removed from the circuit as well, as I've heard that those can cause problems as well.

And, again, we have proven fuel-flow; the rotor is turning just fine, and there is no condenser to worry about (at least in the new electronic distributor). And, the condenser was already replaced on the original stock distributor.

And, finally, I've already had two senior members of my local Model A club chapter come out and go over the car with me. These guys have over 75 combined years' experience with these cars... and yet they couldn't find anything obviously wrong with the car or in the way I had it put all together, even after all the testing and electrical readings we did.

It was because of the fact that it ran well for one week (before dying again) that I thought perhaps there might be an intermittent frame ground issue (due to theoretical flexing and potential corrosion in the frame joints where they meet and are riveted), so I then pursued trying the installation of multiple ground-straps throughout the frame and the engine block. Unfortunately, that hasn't helped whatever the real issue is, and I'm still back to square one...

Ironically, I've been a home mechanic for all of my life, and I've restored a few muscle cars recently, all with great results. This Model A, however, is far simpler than anything else I've ever worked on... yet it is the one that is giving me the most grief! Who woulda thought?

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Bob C

What kind of ignition switch to you have? Some of them are to long Bob

I agree that you should check the ignition switch. The originals are notorious for having problems at their age, and I have had to replace about four of the modern replacements before finally spending the bigger bucks to get a quality one. They can fail intermittently and drive you crazy trying to diagnose. The fact that it ran ok for awhile IMMEDIATELY AFTER fiddling with the ignition wiring is an important clue. Just jumper a wire across the ignition switch lugs, or temporarily twist the two wires together, and give it a go.

Steve S

just read your last note, and see you have a "new" ignition switch. I would still try jumping around it. Continuity testing isn't reliable; a feeble connection might still test ok.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Bob,

First, you should be highly commended for your patience & your not giving up. No doubt you understand a lot about about all facets of the internal combustion engine & you are very inteligent.

In reading your last statement asking for a "suggestion" & H-E-L-P, with much humility, the following simple tests from former simple mechanics are offered as a simple diagnosis by process of elimination to help to concentrate on an (A) Electrical problem, or (B) fuel problem; or (C) Both.

1. First go to the foremeost source of the internal combustion engine; i.e., the internal combustion chamber where both: (A) Essential spark & (B) Fuel mixture is required. (Forget about the battery ground, battery, distributor, carburetor, intake manifold, fuel pressure, timing, coil, junction box, condenser, shorted wires, points, tire pressure, type of engine oil, etc., etc.)

2. Second, remove all (4) plugs, lay each on its side to properly ground same while being properly connected to the distributor cap, so you can "see" the spark on "all" (4) plugs when the engine is cranked. Concentrate on finding "problems" as opposed to "experimenting" by changing parts.

3. Third, turn the switch to "on", & have someone depress the starter while you, or an "experienced" Model A mechanic observes "proper" spark on "all" (4) plugs. If you have good spark while the starter is depressed, you know you have a good coil, good condenser, clean points, good plugs, & good electrical connections from the battery through the distributor, all the way to the plugs, where it really counts. If no good spark found, one "definitely" has an electrical problem which needs further investigation.

4. Fourth, install all (4) plugs, turn the switch to "off", fully pull out the choke, depress the starter, allow the engine to rotate about a dozen times & immediately remove "all" (4) plugs. Either you, or an "experienced" Model A mechanic can observe if "all" (4) plugs are coated with fuel, i.e., gasoline, with no droplets of water. (If one has droplets of water one may have condensate water in the carburetor bowl which needs to be drained, or water in the fuel tank; or maybe a blown head gasket). If plugs are not wet with fuel one "definitely" has a fuel problem which needs further investigation.

5. Fifth, if the plugs were dry, add about (1) teaspoon of gasoline in each spark plug hole, dip each plug in a (4) ounce or so can of gasoline, "immediately" install plugs, turn switch to "on", & crank engine with starter. If engine now fires a few revolutions, a double check for "no doubt" that one has a fuel problem.

6. Sixth, after these simple tests, the "voodoo" is just about over, whereby one can further investigate: (A) An electrial problem, or (B) A fuel problem, or (C) both.

Having nothing against modern igniton systems & modern fuel systems, it appears one can find more written & posted forum information on how to maintain Model A's when more original parts have been installed.

Hope this H-E-L-P-S!

[gunmetal blue]

Did you try putting gas heat in gas tank. you my have water in the gas. or in the gas tank that blocks the flow of gas.

[jmeckel]

I had almost this exact issue wth my 2 clyinder John Deere tractor. I replaced every part in the electricial system, including all new wire, switch, plugs, plug wire, etc., 2 new carburetors, new fuel lines, checked fuel flow rate, checkd compression, retimed many times, pulled valve cover and checked the tappets, valve timing etc. problem still existed, mostly would not even fire, or when it did run, sounds very bad and died. Finally because there was nothing left to do, I drained out the gas, (the gas was only about 3 months old), and put in new fresh gas...... engine started and ran great. Gas looked good, felt cold when ran on your hand, so it was evaporating, did not smell bad, but would not burn, infact when I dumped a small amount on the gravel drive, it would not light untill I held a match to it and then it very slowly started to burn and then it burned with a yellow flame and black smoke, just like used oil.

I have no idea what was wrong with the gas, other than it was the 10% ethanol junk, some think that the ethanol absorbs water and causes this issue, I do not know, however the tractor has ran just fine since, and I no longer use the ethonal gas.

[mach0415]

If you suspect an electrical issue with all this, checking for resistance in wiring is pointless if all strands are broken except one. When "Ohming out" wiring, it will test good, because it is checked without current flowing. The six volt side of the coil, grounds, and wiring to the distributor needs to be rechecked, because the most accurate way to check an electrical system is by performing a voltage drop test. When loading a circuit, that one last strand of wire inside the insulation will build resistance and impede voltage and amperage through the circuit with current flowing. Weak spark is an example, where voltage and amperage will drop, due to higher amounts of compiled or localized resistance. On a 12 volt system, voltage should not drop more than .2-.3 volts across a circuit. If it shows more, then there is high resistance. My assumption is that 6 volt systems would have a similar drop. I would check all wiring to and from the ignition switch, distributor, and coil to points, using voltage drop tests. You can also check drop across the grounds this way. Once you find it, overlay a wire, or jumper it to confirm. I hope this helps you out. Let us know.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by steve s

I agree that you should check the ignition switch. The originals are notorious for having problems at their age, and I have had to replace about four of the modern replacements before finally spending the bigger bucks to get a quality one. They can fail intermittently and drive you crazy trying to diagnose. The fact that it ran ok for awhile IMMEDIATELY AFTER fiddling with the ignition wiring is an important clue. Just jumper a wire across the ignition switch lugs, or temporarily twist the two wires together, and give it a go.

Steve S

just read your last note, and see you have a "new" ignition switch. I would still try jumping around it. Continuity testing isn't reliable; a feeble connection might still test ok.

I vote for this answer. Does your coil feel warm with the switch on? If so it would indicate a short. As mentioned above, I would try bypassing the ignition switch and see what happends. Tom W mentioned these checks to me a few months ago and it solved my problem which was the ignition switch.

[Slseacrist]

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Maybe a Coil. I am not electrical expert, but I just when through a loss/ week spark. I had burned up two coils before I got my caleague ( auto shop ) teacher to take a look. I had wired mind negative ground 12v to run a alternator. Apparently 12v coils need 8v in or you will burn up a standard coil over time. I got direct 12v ( built in resistor) coil and solved the week spark. With your electrical changes you maybe having similar issues on a 6v system. Sorry this may not be directly helpful but it may spark (pun intended) an idea.

[Popeye31]

get back to basics .Are you using the screw in the front of the timming cover to find top dead center or are you looking in the sparkplug hole? use the pin(screw) in the front of the timming cover. at top dead center make sure the nub for the number one spark plug in the distributor is in the middle of the rotor tip. also check that the points contact has not fallen off of the points . set points to .18 -.22. and check spark plugs for correct gaps .35 . now with the cap off turn the key on and open and close the points with a screw driver if there is a spark put cap and coil wire back on and try to start. if it still will not start pull coil wire out of cap hold close to head bolt and crank engine if you don't get spark change wire, if you still dont get spark after changing wire change coil and condensor. I always change them as a set don't need to but one can make the other go bad. if you still do'nt get spark then you have a connection problem between the points and switch. this can be a broke wire or falty switch or just a bad connection at a screw. also the black wire or the wire that goes to the negative side of the coil should be on the passenger side stud on the distribution block on the fire wall the red wire that goes to the ignition switch should be on the driver side of the distribution block. now if all is fixed you should get a spark if car will not run change cap and rotor. now as far as fule goes check to make sure you are getting good flow through all fule lines I saw a petcock that was parshally cloged and fule would flow but not fast enough to let the car run. I know you have probably checked all of these thing but make a list and check them off as you check the item and I think you will find the issue or multipule issues you might have over looked because of frustration. Like you said these cars are very simple and you just need to get back to basics when assessing issues with them.

[Tom Endy]

Bob:

Were I trying to sort this problem out, two things I would do.

First I would remove the battery and cables and clean the area of the frame where the battery ground strap attaches. This is the most overlooked electrical connection on the car. Out of sight and out of mind. Paint, crud, rust, and powder coating create a poor ground. You can hang ground straps all over the car, but if the battery itself is not properly grounded you will have problems.

Second, I would make up a bypass cable that threads directly into the distributor and attaches with a clip lead to the coil. This will eliminate any loss of battery power through the ignition switch and the pop out cable.

Tom Endy

[PC/SR]

Try disconnecting all wires from the hot side of the coil and run "hot wire" from the battery/starter lug direct to the hot side of the coil. That eliminates all system wiring up to that point. Then check that there is current on the distributor side of the coil, and to the center electrode of the coil. That is a partial trouble shoot of the coil. I may have missed it, but I dont see that you have tested or replaced the coil. The internal wiring can break or short and act intermittently.
I dont know how to troubleshoot an FSI distributor so have no suggestions there.

[1931 flamingo]

Just a suggestion to posters whho are trying to help; Half a dozen of you have told him how to set up and ck a std dist, he has an electronic ign. Others have told him about how to ck for fuel, etc. He's swapped to a weber carb and manifold.

He had a problem, now he has the problem and by changing all these parts, etc, he probably has the orig problem and probably a couple others that have been self induced. He's stated that he's added at least two additional grounding straps and "dremel" polished all attaching points.
Best thing to do would be to reinstall orig dist and carb and intake and start from there, then if it gets running he can change over to elec ign and weber (one at a time). JMO
Paul in CT

[sturgis 39]

Maybe the starter motor is taking all of the juice. I have never hand cranked a model "A",but I have seen it done. I guess you want to pull on the crank. I had a bad starter on a model "T" and the coils were not getting electricity. Some cars actually supply the full 12 volts to the coil when starting.

He probably has had the starter rebuilt. Do you think he is playing some kind of mind game with us. I think this problem has been going on for months.

[Bill Goddard]

On a recent tour we had two cars fail to start and/or run smoothly. Both had to be trailered home - 75 miles. The bottom line was we tried to fix the problems at the scenewith freshly overhauled but faulty replacement parts. Check to see if any of your replacement parts are defective.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Faulty parts is one reason I installed some condensers in my A, then drove with them for a week, and then reinstalled the original condenser. This way I know I have a well tested working condenser for a spare. If you carry a spare carb or coil, I'd do the same with them.

[wi0v]

My car has an 8 volt battery and that really makes it start, worth a try. I know you said you checked the coil, but as an old boat mechanic when they had coils, they would be intermittent, might also try that.

[Bobs29ModelA]

My thanks again to all of you for your ongoing input and suggestions. As we speak, I am already in the process of putting both the original ignition system and Tillotson carburetor back in, just to see what happens.

As far as I can tell, I have probably tested or otherwise checked most everything that has been suggested so far (including taking voltage-drop readings during cranking), without a negative result. The one thing I haven't done yet, however, was the idea of pulling out all four spark plugs at the same time and grounding them out to the block, to visibly confirm that each one will have a spark capable of jumping the electrode's gap. (I've only tried pulling them one at a time and grounding them, not doing all at the same time). I will definitely give that idea a try, once I get everything converted back to it's original configuration again.

I also need to say that, yes, I have been dealing with this disappointing and frustrating issue for a few months now... but no, I'm not "playing some kind of mind game" with anybody! I wouldn't be asking for such help if I wasn't having to deal with these problems, I can assure you. My love of older cars and their restoration/repair goes way back, and I was truly looking forward to driving and enjoying this latest acquisition much more than I've been able to do so far. Hopefully, and eventually, I want to find out what the true issue here is, so I can do just that.

[Brentwood Bob]

Did you intend to use the original coil? By doing the plugs you include everything so that will give you a starting point.

[Mike]

Did you try frsh gas yet ? I once had 2 bad brand new 3 x champion plugs right out the box!!

Mike

[Fred K-OR]

(I've only tried pulling them one at a time and grounding them, not doing all at the same time)

You may also want to pull the coil wire out of the distributor and grounding it on the head as you turn over the engine to see if it sparks. Or you could just ground it and pull the points open and it should also spark when the points spark.

[2935ford]

Just to commiserate with you. I know the frustration. I have a 1919 Dort that ran when I first got it but now.....it turns over but doesn't want to start. It will cough a bit and want to but doesn't. I won't give up on this either. It WILL start!
Keep at it....you will find the cause!

[jkeesey]

Is there a chance the timing has changed? Did anyone check it with the front pin?

[andyg]

Make sure POSITIVE side of battery is hooked to ground.

Throw away any new Champion spark plugs because they are not what they used to be. I run Autolites with much better results. I have used brand new Champions that were gapped correctly and run pourly.

[Gary WA]

How about the distributor? is it turning as you crank? just another thought!

[John Duden]

also check your wire connections on the ignition switch, my nut came loose and the contact was poor and had harldy any spark but a little blue one the truck ran withe the throutle all the way open withe choke all the way pulled and it was still barley running
John

[rally 1]

When I first got my '31 Tudor six years ago, experienced the same issues. After having gone through the entire ignition and carburetion systems,
turned out, mice had built a housing development in the muffler, would move and plug up the exhaust when trying to start the engine.
This car had been sitting in a garage since '53.
Took the muffler off, turned it on end, shook out ten lbs. of lint,grass, mouse turds, and dead mice.
Reinstalled, cars still running today.

Worth a look.
Ken

[gweilbaker]

For Grins and giggles, check your terminal box for shorting into the firewall. The repro units have the terminal screw head "proud" of the back and can wear through the paint. This can be intermittent which can lead to one pull out his hair.

Good luck,
GW

[Model A Fan]

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Originally Posted by gweilbaker

For Grins and giggles, check your terminal box for shorting into the firewall. The repro units have the terminal screw head "proud" of the back and can wear through the paint. This can be intermittent which can lead to one pull out his hair.

Good luck,
GW

If this happens, can I just place a piece of rubber against the back of the terminal box/glue it to the firewall to prevent the short? Would wood be better? A thin piece?
Thanks!

[J Franklin]

If any want to throw away your new Champion 3X plugs send them to me as they work best of any I have used in my car.

[steve s]

Originally Posted by Model A Fan

If this happens, can I just place a piece of rubber against the back of the terminal box/glue it to the firewall to prevent the short? Would wood be better? A thin piece?
Thanks!

I can't imagine that that wouldn't work. The first case I heard of this problem for claimed the short occured when the firewall got hot and thermal expansion somehow caused the short. Sounded pretty implausible to me, but there it was. Grinding down the bolt heads was recommended, as I recall.

I would think an easy test for the problem--if you can get the car running--would be to just push the wingnuts toward the firewall. If they're close to shorting out, that should bring them in contact and kill the motor.

Steve

[Gary WA]

IS IT RUNNING YET?? Keep us posted lots of suggestions out there?!!!

[Bobs29ModelA]

I've read all of the latest suggestions posted in the last day, and, while they're all good suggestions, unfortunately they're also things I'd already checked and/or tried.

I did, however, read an interesting tidbit in my "Model A Miseries and Cures" book. It said that occasionally someone will put a Model B timing gear cover on a Model A engine... and that the timing will be off because the location of the timing pin hole differs between the two covers.

Interestingly, when I first got this car, it was clear to me that someone had removed the timing gear cover at some point, for some reason... because it had been repainted a regular green (not Ford Green) color, and then reinstalled onto the front of the engine. So, I started wondering if perhaps my car fit the description of the same problem I'd read in the book.

Using the book's suggestion as a guide, I did check the position of the timing pin hole and determined that it is indeed the correct Model A cover. Besides that, I've always been visually-checking that the #1 piston is at TDC when setting the timing... and when it is at TDC, the timing pin correctly drops into the notch in the timing gear. I therefore don't think this has anything to do with the problem, especially since it ran for a few days using the same timing and checking methods before...

[Brentwood Bob]

I'm thinking that with the original parts reinstalled you have the logical starting point for diagnosis. Using the spark plug spark test first then trouble shooting from there. Dave and Ralph had a shot, maybe we could look again when you are ready. I'm just over the hill. Bob

[Bobs29ModelA]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the offer; I see you're not too far-away in Brentwood. Cool.

FYI, I've seen in a couple of places that people are recommending the placing of a ground cable going from where the positive-post cable connects to the frame... and the other end going to the transmission housing. While I've got plenty of grounding straps (as shared in my previous posts), I have not tried this yet. I may give it a shot, once I get the car all back to nearly-stock again....

[Brentwood Bob]

Keep me in the loop. Bob

[Mills River Barn]

Interesting problem, I read all posts and thought I would add my 2 cents. I had a similar problem when I started working on an old A that did run but I figured it needed new points, condensor, rotor, and plugs. After making a wholesale change (bad idea) the A now would not run. Come to find out I had 6 volts at points but when the points were closed I did not have consistent 6 volts through the points to ground. The new points had a very weak spring and were not making good enough contact. I installed the old points and all was fine. I bought a new set of points from NAPA auto parts and the spring was 20 times stronger then what I has bought from a Model A supplier. I contacted the supplier but they blew it off like I was crazy. Live and learn. Good luck.

[Jake]

Bob: A better test for continuity is with a volt meter with the ignition on read each wire with the VM in parallel to the to the wire in question. If you read any voltage the wire or connections are bad. A place to start would be with your battery connections.
With the new ignition switch on check for voltage across the terminals if there is a voltage reading it is a bad switch. Also with the points closed read the continuity between the switch contact in the distrib and ground. I don't recall you saying that you replaced your coil. If you did make sure it does not have an internal resistor.

[Bobs29ModelA]

The latest is that I returned the entire ignition system components and wiring back to stock, with the exception of using "modern" points. I also then tried bypassing the ignition switch as recently suggested, all still with negative results.

Anybody wanna buy a '31 Coupe? I'm putting it up for sale...

[sturgis 39]

I would not give up. There is probably a Model "A" club close to you. I would load it on a trailer with all of your extra parts and take it to their next gathering. Tell them you know what is wrong. Then offer a $100 to the guy that gets it running. I bet it will be running in no time. I would would take a fresh can of gasoline because that would probably be one idea of water in the gas. Take all of the tools along that you have been using like wrenches , volt meter, plugs, condensers, polarity checker,jumper wires, compression gauge, carburetor cleaner, wire brush, carburetor tools etc.

You might want to call the president of the club so they know you are coming and can schedule a couple of hours.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by Bobs29ModelA

The latest is that I returned the entire ignition system components and wiring back to stock, with the exception of using "modern" points. I also then tried bypassing the ignition switch as recently suggested, all still with negative results.

Anybody wanna buy a '31 Coupe? I'm putting it up for sale...

Maybe one last thing you may try. My coupe died on me awhile back and I could not find anything wrong. So I thought I would try sanding the points. So I closed them, put some sand paper between them, pulled it back and forth a few times. After putting things back together, tried it and away it went. I know this is simple but one more little thing that may work.

Good luck-there has to be some answer to you problem.

[JBR]

Bob,
Don't give up. There is a Mafca Chapter right in Livermore. The contact person is listed as Nelda McArthur it doesn't give a phone number but does give this email address: [email protected] I would send them an email asking them for help and request that they contact you.
I have a pickup that drove me nuts for four years. It would run, but had no power. I could barely get it to 20 mph on a level street. Like you, I tried everything I could think of. I had several older model a guys trying to help me. I threatened to sell it several times.
This summer I swore I would fix it or get rid of it. I started changing parts. To make a long story short, it turned out to be spark plugs that were fouled by a carb that was running way too rich.
The answer is there, you just haven't found it yet. It will be so worth it when you do. Good Luck,
Jon

[dlshady]

Bob,

I've read through every post in this thread so thatI don't make a bunch of useless suggestions, but the one thing I don't recall you mentioning is a basic compression check. Many years ago I attended an AC Delco training school for the (then) new EFI systems, and the one thing I remember my instructor saying is that all internal combustion motors have one thing in common. To run they have to "suck, squeeze, bang and puke", and they have to do all of the above in the proper timing.

If I were in your shoes, the first thing I would do is verify whether or not the engine is doing the four basic functions above, regardless of whether it's doing them at the right times.

1) Hold your hand over the throat of the carb to be sure it's attempting to draw air in.

2) Run a compression check, or at the very least crank it over while holding your hand over each plug hole respectively to be sure of compression.

3) Check for spark (which I'm pretty sure you have covered)

4) Make sure there's no abnormal obstructions in the exhaust

Once you can be sure that the engine is capable of getting air/fuel in, compressing it, combusting it and getting rid of the spent gases then you can move on to making sure that everything is happening in the right order and in proper timing.

If you suspect a fuel problem (which doesn't seem too likely) then shoot it with ether while cranking.

From the sound of things it looks like you have everything the engine needs to run, which would make me think that something must be happening at the wrong time.

Keep us posted!
Deron

[newshirt]

Originally Posted by dlshady

4) Make sure there's no abnormal obstructions in the exhaust

Have you pulled the exhaust manifold?

[Jynx]

Seen a car with a plugged muffler...could try disconnecting it

[gweilbaker]

Do you read a voltage on either terminal of the terminal box referencing the chassis? I have not seen it mentioned?

GW

[Jazzjr]

Try the Old School Trick, You may think I'm crazy, but its worked for Me for Years.
It ran when You Bought it, and once after. I think You are Flooding the Engine and Fouling the Plugs, every time You try to Start it.!

Pull the Spark Plugs Out, clean them by Sand Blasting them if you can, or use New ones gaped correctly.
Let the Cylinders Dry out for a Couple of Hours.
Make sure you have some kind of Fire at the Points, set the Timing. If you are using a Cap with Wires, make sure they are going to the Correct Cylinders.

Tow it By using a Tow Strap, to a Steep Hill and with gas on, key on, put Transmission in Second Gear, Coast down the hill, Let the Clutch out Slowly to try start it.
No Hill, have Someone Tow You on the Level.
Your Engine Will turn over 10 Times Faster than using the Battery.

Now I know You have done this in your Lifetime, what have You to Loose. Try it again...... Good Luck

PS: It has been Mentioned to do a Commpression Check, Did You? You may have a Valve Stuck Open and Not Seating.
By Towing or Coasting Down the Hill, If You have a Valve Open, It should Backfire when Trying to Start.

[MCHinson]

Bob,

A few things that I have not seen while reading your explanations about what you have done come to mind.

Have you considered an intake manifold leak? If you have a leak here, the fuel will not be sucked in to be able to burn.

If that is not the case, I would think that, as has been mentioned, you may need to clean or replace the sparkplugs, or points.

Those who are urging you to get back to the basics are right. It is impossible for us to diagnose it from afar without really precise explanations of what has and has not been done. It is surely a simple problem. Simple problems are sometimes more elusive than difficult problems.

[John S]

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Originally Posted by dlshady

Bob,

I've read through every post in this thread so thatI don't make a bunch of useless suggestions, but the one thing I don't recall you mentioning is a basic compression check. Many years ago I attended an AC Delco training school for the (then) new EFI systems, and the one thing I remember my instructor saying is that all internal combustion motors have one thing in common. To run they have to "suck, squeeze, bang and puke", and they have to do all of the above in the proper timing.

If I were in your shoes, the first thing I would do is verify whether or not the engine is doing the four basic functions above, regardless of whether it's doing them at the right times.

1) Hold your hand over the throat of the carb to be sure it's attempting to draw air in.

2) Run a compression check, or at the very least crank it over while holding your hand over each plug hole respectively to be sure of compression.

3) Check for spark (which I'm pretty sure you have covered)

4) Make sure there's no abnormal obstructions in the exhaust

Once you can be sure that the engine is capable of getting air/fuel in, compressing it, combusting it and getting rid of the spent gases then you can move on to making sure that everything is happening in the right order and in proper timing.

If you suspect a fuel problem (which doesn't seem too likely) then shoot it with ether while cranking.

From the sound of things it looks like you have everything the engine needs to run, which would make me think that something must be happening at the wrong time.

Keep us posted!
Deron

This is the best advice you can get IMO and you won't spend a cent doing these checks. I'm going to guess that you have some stuck valves or a head gasket blown between two cylinders. Check the compression and let us know the readings. And don't give up...you can fix it.
"Suck, squeeze, bang and puke".....Jeeze...I think I had the same instructor at GM school.

[dlshady]

You know, something else I was just sitting here thinking about...

Several years ago I built a race motor for a customer's Mustang drag car, and thought I was NEVER going to get it cranked when I got it back in the car. I realized pretty quickly that I'd flooded the motor because of a blown fuse to the ignition box, but after fixing that it still wouldn't crank. I pulled the plugs, used an sir hose to dry them off, cranked the motor around to rid the cylinders of any raw gas, etc... But even after all that it still wouldn't fire.

By this point it was about 2:00 AM the morning before he was to pick it up so in an act of desperation I pulled the plugs one more time, took my acetylene torch and heated the insulator on every plug. I did this to 1) burn off any raw fuel that had possibly soaked the ceramic (hey, I was grasping at straws!) and 2) merely just to heat them up a bit.

Then I reinstalled the plugs and tried to crank the motor. It only lit off on two or three cylinders at first, but it ran. Every three or four revolutions it would light off another cylinder and it wasn't long before it was running on all eight, and it never gave trouble again.

Just food for thought, but my point is that just because the plugs might be new it doesn't necessarily mean that they're good.....


Hope you get it going soon!
Deron

[Bobs29ModelA]

I love DLSHADY's suggestion, regarding the use of a torch... although I'm considering using one on the whole CAR instead! LOL!

[Bill Goddard]

Have you checked the little carbon nib on the distributor cap that rides on the rotor? If it is broken away or glossed over with dirt it will not transmit power to rotor. Also I like the $100 challange idea.

[Russell in Tulsa]

I'm going to guess it has a fuel problem. Get a propane torch,unlit of course, and direct the gas into the carb. If it fires right up, kill it and check your fuel lines and make sure you don't have too much tubing protruding past the ferrules on both ends. Try it out on a lawnmower (the torch) and see how nicely it starts, with no gasoline in the mower tank. Hope this helps and if not it got your mind off of the non=working "A" for a minute. Good luck.

[J Franklin]

Send me a round trip Amtrack ticket and put me up for a night and I will get it running or tell you why it won't. If I can't do that I'll reimburse you fully.

[Chuck Sea/Tac]

I didn't read all the posts, but I had a friend with an erratic run/start, and it turned out to be the ampmeter. Chuck

[Clem Clement]

I fought an A for awhile using 3 sets of plugs. Turned out all were dead.
clem

[Ken Ehrenhofer]

In the Navy we used to call this "DIVE BOMBING". Boucing around changing parts that do not need changing. Big difference between a parts changer and a trouble shooter.
The Navy taught a "Logical Trouble shooting procedure" step by Step. Do not change two things only one at a time or you will never know what fixed the problem!
"Fly Navy" This advice works for everything in life........well almost everything,
Ken
Lots of good advice from all these guys!

[dlshady]

Originally Posted by Ken Ehrenhofer

In the Navy we used to call this "DIVE BOMBING".

That's awesome!

[1931 flamingo]

And on a promotion exam, if in doubt,it was "Dive Bomb Charlie (c.)".
Paul in CT

[sonny30coupe]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Send me a round trip Amtrack ticket and put me up for a night and I will get it running or tell you why it won't. If I can't do that I'll reimburse you fully.

That sounds like the way to go to me

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Chuck Sea/Tac

I didn't read all the posts, but I had a friend with an erratic run/start, and it turned out to be the ampmeter. Chuck

You can bypass the amp guage by using a jumper wire across the two wing nuts on the terminal box cover. But, if the nuts inside the terminal box are loose or corroded then you still have a problem inside the terminal box that hasn't been bypassed with the jumper wire.

It's still a good idea to try, as the problem may be in the ammeter only and not the terminal box nuts.

[cw]

Did you check the timing gear for missing teeth?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Something fishy about this thread????????? Is this just a GAME????

[CA Victoria]

If you have not already done so, check out the MAFCA.org web site. There is a list of clubs by state and region. There are clubs listed in Livermore and San Jose, they could be a great help with hands on help.

[biggergary]

slack in chain maybe

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Something fishy about this thread????????? Is this just a GAME????

Only thing that will smell like a fish, is Bob who will be selling his 'lemon' at a loss! Hm, I love challenge..may invest
BTW..model As do not have a 'chain' ..if I recollect correctly!

BTW...Bob IS a standup guy...for your information!

[Mike V. Florida]

After 4 months and 5 pages here it's time to go back to ground Zero and back to basics. FORGET everything you have done so far and start from the beginning.

You need,
Fuel
air
compression
spark
all at the right time.

I would start with spark, since you changed out to a pointless system the testing is a little harder. Get a list of trouble shooting tips from FS ignition. No matter what else might be wrong you need a strong blue spark or your wasting your time looking at other things. Your original post stated that you have a weak spark. Work on this first. Check grounds, all connections between frame, body and engine. Check all connections period in all the ign wiring!

Once you have a strong spark get back to us.

http://www.fsignitions.com/uploads/T...ide_9-7-10.pdf

I'm serious, you need to start with ONE thing get it right and move on.

[Fred K-OR]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

Something fishy about this thread????????? Is this just a GAME????

Good point!

[Ron W]

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" - I then tried bypassing the power wire from the armored cable, and instead ran power from the ignition switch directly to the points in the distributor
- The car suddenly started (instantly!) and it ran fine this way for a full week..."
This quote from you indicates a short inside the armored cable. did you correct it?
Ron W

[Bob C]

This thread in like the "1937 No Start" on the early V8 forum, 220 posts and 7,553
hits and the guy never said if he got it running.

Bob

[1931 flamingo]

Yup. I followed that one also with great interest. Thet're both long gone I thinl.
Paul in CT

[J Franklin]

Sometimes it is too embarrassing to come back and say a wire was missing or the key not turned fully.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by J Franklin

Sometimes it is too embarrassing to come back and say a wire was missing or the key not turned fully.

AND, sometimes people....even at this honorable place, are a little strange !
Go back to sleep or whatever...the CAR HAS BEEN SOLD, due to the problem. End of theories/conjecture and speculation as to this guys honesty. Unless you want to keep it going

BTW-talk "embarrassing"... have you noticed how long it has been since owner even made last remarks..however thread just keeps going and going..like it now has a life of its own !!

[sturgis 39]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

AND, sometimes people....even at this honorable place, are a little strange !
Go back to sleep or whatever...the CAR HAS BEEN SOLD, due to the problem. End of theories/conjecture and speculation as to this guys honesty. Unless you want to keep it going

BTW-talk "embarrassing"... have you noticed how long it has been since owner even made last remarks..however thread just keeps going and going..like it now has a life of its own !!

What does "BTW" mean?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Well, it teaches us how NOT to act on our forum!
We are gentlemen, all of us are a little WEIRD, BUT GENTLEMEN!

[sturgis 39]

I bet that it is not running. What does btw stand for? I hate to ask the granddaughter.

I do not text and I can barley answer the cell phone without drop kicking it across the floor. I never have been able to answer the phone until the ringing is over with.

I have tried all kinds of combinations for "BTW".

[MBI Houston]

BTW By the Way in text talk

[Gord. B by the bay]

According to you notes when you "hot wired" it right from battery to distributor with the coil in the circuit it started immediately then run for a few days then started to miss etc running poorly I would be questioning the breakdown of the coil changw it with out disturbing anything else and if it start right up then you have a coil with poor windings, Give it a try Gord. B by the bay

[mickeyb]

A new condenser does always mean a good condenser

[mickeyb]

thats does not sorry

[sturgis 39]

BTW I e-mailed him to find out what is going on.

[Bobs29ModelA]

Hi again; sorry to all for not being "on-the-air" for a while. I've had more pressing issues at home with my wife's multiple doctor's appointments and two upcoming surgeries, along with her facing a long recovery, that have kept me focused on more important things.

As my friend Hardtimes shared, I did indeed sell the car just the other night at a loss, as the next 6 months are going to see me not having much time to play with the car and continue to troubleshoot her, as well as the fact that I needed to convert some of my investment back into cash to help with upcoming medical expenses. So, I'm sorry if that disappoints any of you, but I had to face the reality of upcoming expenses plus lack of time. And, just to clarify my "character", the gentleman who bought her was made well-aware by me of the issues that exist with her, as I never sell a car without being totally honest about known problems, and, in this case at least, also about what I've tried on her so far to get her going. He is looking forward to spending the time on her to get her up and running again, so I feel good about that.

In closing, I do thank you all for your kind help, as well as your understanding in this matter.

[leo]

Take a look inside your distributor, remove the upper plate and see if the pigtail wire is shorting out by having moved at the upper connection point or if the upper plate is shorting out to the lower plate or distributor body.

[ford31]

fire and fuel should do something,can you go back to original for test,make sure you are not to far in where threads to dist,check input volts at coil (batt volts)power up switch lay coil wire close to ground engine ect with points open short with screw driver see what spark gap is,will gas run out of carb open drain if Zenith

[sturgis 39]

He sold the car!!! His wife is sick and he needs the money

[JBR]

Bob,
I wish you and your wife the best of luck with the issues you are facing and hope she has a speedy recovery.

I am sorry to hear that you sold the car. Maybe you can get another someday. I realize how perplexing some mechanical issues can be having dealt with a few of my own.

The best of luck to you and your wife. Have a Merry Christmas.
Jon

[J Franklin]

Could you ask the buyer of your car to post what he did to get it running and not leave us in suspense Please. Good luck with all that is happening in your life now.

[Bobs29ModelA]

Hi Jon, thank you for your good wishes. We do have a tough road ahead of us, for sure.

I'd like to point out that I do indeed still have another car, as I'd also recently bought Hardtimes' '29 Sport Coupe, to add to my "stable". His turned-out to be much nicer than expected, and needed nothing else to enjoy her, which is a blessing. However, it was also at the very same time that the '29 was being delivered that we unexpectedly got word that two more surgeries would be required... just when we thought she was already on the road to recovery. It was then that I realized that I'd need more time to concentrate on my wife's issues, plus some extra money to help with the out-of-pocket costs, to get through the coming months. The result of all this was that I then had to make the decision to sell the '31 coupe. Since she still wasn't running, it was a no-brainer that she would be the one to go. However, I really did plan to hang on to her and ultimately get her going again, as anyone who knows me knows that I really don't like giving-up when it comes to a challenge like this. However, it also seemed like the right (and logical) thing to do, thanks to the new circumstances, so I did so.

Anyway, I should be able to hang on to the '29, because if I suddenly find myself in even more financial difficulties in the coming months for some reason, I would probably sell my restored '67 Camaro before I would sell-off the '29. I mean, as great as the '60's-era muscle cars are, these Model A's have personally become more fun for me to drive and tinker with, than my Camaro could ever be. I think that really says something for the Model A, huh?

[Bobs29ModelA]

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Oh, and yes, I had already asked the buyer to let me know what he finds on the '31 to get her going again... and I will definately share that with everyone, should he follow-through and get back to me! "Enquiring minds want to know", as the old advertisement goes!

[marc hildebrant]

Wouldn't a Running 1931 Model A be worth more money than a broken 1931 Model A ?

Marc

[Bill in Al]

Bob,good luck with your family.I had looked at HARDTIMES '29 pix before you bought it. A really fine car I would have loved to own myself! Enjoy!!

[V4F]

Wouldn't a Running 1931 Model A be worth more money than a broken 1931 Model A ?

i think it depends on the buyer ! .................... steve

[Bobs29ModelA]

Of course a running car would fetch more; however, I had to get it out of my driveway ASAP, as the wife was giving me grief over it sitting outside under a car cover while it was up for sale. I have no regrets, just bigger things on my plate right now, concerning my wife. Coincidentally, I just got a call from her, and now some sort of "cancer marker" number has gone up, in her recent lab tests. This on top of the two upcoming surgeries, which were NOT related to any kind of cancer but another serious condition. Geez, it's like a triple-whammy these last couple of weeks. Anyway, my thanks to those that have shared their concern. After today, I may not be on the forum for a while, so I hope you'll all understand. Thanks!

[gweilbaker]

Prayers for your wife.

GW

[1931 flamingo]

Prayers going out for your Wife..............and for You. It's a burden no one needs.
Paul in CT

[Bobs29ModelA]

My sincere thanks to all for their concern!

FYI, it looks like I will be spending the holidays "living" at the hospital with her, as they've scheduled her surgery on the 23rd, and then she'll be in there for 2 or 3 days before they'll let me take her home. It's going to be pretty strange spending Christmas Eve and Christmas Day at a hospital, instead of at home where we belong! (We're now planning to have our Christmas dinner and gift-exchange with the kids and grandkids a few days before she goes in, out of necessity).

Anyway, I can only hope that next year's Christmas will be a heck of a lot better than this one is shaping-up to be! Ha!

[Fred K-OR]

Your situations brings back memories of some 60 years ago when my mother went through a similar situation at Christmas. It does change Christmas for that year but remember, there will be future years when you will enjoy Christmas with your family.

Good luck with your situation.

[BudP]

I had a similar experience with my wife a few years ago. Christmas at the hospital can be difficult. But time passes and things change. This year she and I are enjoying the children and grandchildren at our home. Tolerate the immediate situation but anticipate with hope the future.

[Bobs29ModelA]

Sure, I know it's only a temporary thing, and the bottom line is that this should help her on the road to recovery... so that we can deal with the next issue. I have to say, however, that at least I get to spend Christmas with her one way or the other... it could always be worse!

Thanks again for your support and encouragement!

[ct1932ford]

Merry Christmas and God Bless! Prayers for your family.

[bobpo]

Originally Posted by ct1932ford

Merry Christmas and God Bless! Prayers for your family.

The same goes from my wife and me. Our prayers are with you.