An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!!

[Dick Steinkamp]

Spacer ring on end of main shaft?

[Marshall V. Daut]

When the problem with locking up first happened, the shift tower was removed to check the placement of the main gears. With them lined up in neutral, the hand crank still couldn't budge the engine. The gears would have remained in this neutral position even with the shift tower removed long enough during hand cranking to check for a binding, but not with the starter. No luck = binding. The shift tower was and is not at fault. As updated, everything seems fine at the moment..at least, until I start the engine later today. Keep your fingers cross for me!
Marshall

[Jacksonlll]

Make sure in all this mess that your starter pinion has not jammed into the ring gear. This can fool you. If the engine will rotate with the crank, the pinion is OK.

[Marshall V. Daut]

"JacksonIII" - A new ring gear was installed with the teeth oriented properly towards the back. Previously even with the starter removed, the engine could not be turned over by hand or the starter after it locked up.

"tbirdtbird" - Yes, the "mechanic" who did this engine 30+ years ago should be shot at sunrise...and then strung up. Just plain criminally stupid! But this kind of "repair" is pretty much the normal state of "quality" work to be expected around here. No surprise at all. I've seen such schlock work many times since moving back here 11 years ago. After much pleading and begging, plus an act of Congress, I was able to convince the cheapskate owner of this car to have the block bored out and to purchase new pistons and rings. The block cleaned up at 0.0100" over. Ring gap now is at 0.016" after honing the cylinders. Crankshaft end thrust was restored by adding the special brass insert (Snyder's part #A-6334) at the back of the bearing saddle, which replaces the aluminum rear main "seal (it doesn't!), and by applying a brass shim on the front of the rear bearing saddle. A friend with a portable valve seat grinding set-up re-did the valve seats in the block using the correct arbor for the grinding bit. He refaced each valve at his shop on his valve grinding equipment. Valves should now be o.k. and sealing properly.

"Dick Steinkamp" - Yes, the ring is in place on the input shaft. I double-checked that during input shaft removal and inspection.

[Brian T]

Hello Marshall,
Just a thought, as Dick Stienkamp mentioned the spacer on the main shaft, some main shafts have the spacer machined into the shaft, is it possible that a spacer was added when not required causing the input shaft to bind , maybe forced the bearing balls out of there track.

I have been in these situations with moderns several times, makes one wonder if one should give it up, hang in there, seek and you shall find.

[Mark in MT]

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Marshall:

I worked on a friends tranny which would pop out of 3rd gear and had been worked over by another club member. One thing I found wrong was it had a long roller bearing in the pocket between the input and output shafts. There is enough difference in length that a long one will hit on the end plates once everything is put back together, this could put enough force on the ball bearing to bind it up once it gets running.

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

"tbirdtbird" -
Thank you for the kind words. Very humbling...
In regards to the transmission, upon removal from the case, the bearing would not turn on the input shaft until I tapped it downward, as explained in my recent post. Something had acted upon it to force the bearing and thrust plate together and bind against the shaft's stop rim. Upon reassembly, everything tested o.k. I sure hope there isn't something else wrong in the tranny. You bring up a point that has been nagging me since Thursday: did I actually fix the problem, or was there something else I missed inside the transmission? I can't imagine what. A Model A transmission is such a simple animal and almost bulletproof when assembling. Other than mistakenly swapping the short and long bearings inside the cluster gear, I don't think the Model A transmission can be put back together improperly, yet still function. It had worked fine (except for the lube hemorrhaging) until the new main bearings were installed. I guess we'll have to wait until later tomorrow to see if the problem is fixed.
Marshall

All that you said is true, but remember that same guy probably did the transmission. So all bets are off. Good luck.
George

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Mark in MT

Marshall:

I worked on a friends tranny which would pop out of 3rd gear and had been worked over by another club member. One thing I found wrong was it had a long roller bearing in the pocket between the input and output shafts. There is enough difference in length that a long one will hit on the end plates once everything is put back together, this could put enough force on the ball bearing to bind it up once it gets running.

That could do it. Sounds to me that it must be something like that.

[Marshall V. Daut]

Thanks, Mark and George. I made sure the short bearing was lubed and installed.

O.K. Down to the garage I go to put this monster back in running order. Maybe in two hours I'll know something?

Marshall

[Brian T]

Here is part of an article courtesy of Tom Endy, (Transmission traps) that describes what I posted earlier, this would result in binding the same as if installing the long bearing.

[Marshall V. Daut]

5th time charm??? I hope so, 'cuz the engine and tranny have to come out AGAIN!!! Yup - the engine started a few minutes ago, but was tapping again before it locked up for the second time with a CLUNK, the same way it did last week. This time it only ran for 5 or 10 seconds before the whole shebang locked up. I'll pull the power plant tomorrow evening and COMPLETELY disassemble the tranny until I find out what is going wrong inside. I've gone from p*ssed off to mildly obsessed with finding the root of the problem. It has now become a challenge instead of a major frustration. I'll bet the front bearing is locked against the gear again, which stops the engine dead in its revolution. I suspect the problem lies somewhere in the input shaft, but we'll all have to wait until tomorrow night or Wednesday to know for sure.
Ain't working on these cars fun????
Marshall

[Dick Steinkamp]

Sorry about that Marshall. The bad news is that it is frustrating and time consuming. The good news is that you will have a great sense of accomplishment when you figure it out (and you will!).

[old car guy]

Marshall
I truly feel the irritation disgust and the general pissed off that a problem like this brings out when things like this occur. I was there many years ago, albeit on a different car and with a another set of issues and the motor of that dam car came out three times by me and another three times by my assorted friends that were more expert than me in their eyes at least.
I swear I actually thought about calling a crusher and sending the car to the happy boneyard in the sky. But after the last time we or I should say I found the problem ,fixed it and it was the best auto I ever owned . Sold it many years back and wish to this day I had not. Keep at it. Find the problem fix it and next year this time it will all seem funny. Not now not even in a few months but it will become a funny issue to talk and lement about. Good luck and please keep up us to speed

[Marshall V. Daut]

Well, now I'm really stumped. The engine and tranny are out and separated as of half an hour ago. The input shaft was NOT locked up as it was the first time this happened. The symptoms, however, were exactly the same as when the engine locked up before = tap, tap, tap, CLUNK! Locked up engine! This time it happened in 10 seconds' idling time instead of 20. Things are now going wrong twice as fast around here. I haven't disassembled the transmission yet, but the input shaft had been my #1 suspect. I did notice tonight that the snout is shorter than I have seen on all other input shafts. As the shoulder of the shaft comes into contact with the pilot bearing, would a too short shaft end come into play here? Is it important that the snot bottom out against the flywheel in front of the pilot bearing? I can't see how the input shaft would move forward if it didn't bottom out because the splined portion of the shaft cannot go deeper than the pilot bearing's inside ring and the input shaft bearing is held in place by that odd-looking "funnel" front bearing retainer. I can't see how the shaft would move forward while the engine is running. I'll look for signs of scraping inside that bearing retainer tomorrow. anyway.
Tomorrow I'll pull the tranny apart and see if there's anything obviously wrong. Frustration is beginning to make a comeback now.
Marshall

[Tom Wesenberg]

Did you try running the engine with the clutch pushed in?

[Marshall V. Daut]

Tom -
Not with the engine running, but turning it over via the starter with the clutch pedal pushed in. Yes, it turned over with the pedal depressed, as before. Maybe I should have tried to start the engine with the clutch pushed in, but I was sure the input shaft was locked again. Too late now that the engine and tranny are on the garage floor.
Marshall

[Dick Steinkamp]

Marshall...I'm sure you'll be successful this time, but just in case, is there a way you can test start the engine with the trans attached on the ground before installing it in the car?

[Greg Jones]

As long as we are guessing at stuff....have you closely checked out your shifter forks to make sure that they are keeping the gears where they are supposed to? I suppose if you had gears going where they shouldn't be going at the wrong time you not only would hear it but could also see some damage. Could a loose u-joint somehow create such a thing, i.e., loose bolt or foreign material somehow made its way into the u-joint grease and gets rattled around. Just guessin' out loud. I feel your pain, as they say.

[Dick Steinkamp]

Originally Posted by Greg Jones

Could a loose u-joint somehow create such a thing, i.e., loose bolt or foreign material somehow made its way into the u-joint grease and gets rattled around. Just guessin' out loud. I feel your pain, as they say.

The output shaft wouldn't be turning in neutral. Hence the U joint wouldn't be in play.

[Greg Jones]

Yeah I thought of that after I posted. Seems like input shaft area is a leading candidate....