An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!!

[justold]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

'Sorry, folks. Nothing will be decided until Sunday due to other time constraints = no time to work on the car until at least tomorrow. I guess I'll have to keep you in suspense for two more days.
Marshall

Did you install the pilot bushing in the end of the crank shaft ? Without it the input shaft would be able to wobble and break the gear on the other end .

[Marshall V. Daut]

Quick answer to "justold" - Yes, a new pilot bearing was installed.
Marshall

[Larry Jenkins]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

'Sorry, folks. Nothing will be decided until Sunday due to other time constraints = no time to work on the car until at least tomorrow. I guess I'll have to keep you in suspense for two more days.
Marshall

This is the way he wrote articles in the old Model A Trader. The one about his muffler experience is an example..

[V4F]

maybe flywheel bolts hitting (as the head is to thick) . the disc does not like thick flywheel bolts

[Marshall V. Daut]

Until I can post a more complete follow-up and to avoid wasting people's time making engine-related suggestions, I will reveal here and now that it was a transmission-related cause of locking up. I had gone through the engine three times after three subsequent engine removals, but couldn't really find a smoking gun for the banging and subsequent engine lock up. I, too, had thought it must be the engine because it had taken 96% of time and effort in this project. It REALLY needed a great deal of help. I removed a shim or two from the rods and mains to dial in the clearances even better after its short idling time, but seized bearings was not the problem. The tranny guys were right on the mark.
And I can also tell you that this problem has NEVER popped up in all my 50+ years messing around with Model A's! As I wrote in this posting's title, it's a new one on me. More tomorrow night...hopefully.
Marshall

[Art Newland]

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Return tomorrow for the next exciting chapter of "As the Crankshaft Turns"! Or in this case "doesn't turn"! Will Marshall finally get this Model A on the road, and out of his hair?Will he have to pull the engine out of the car again? (oh! The humanity!) Will he find the quarter that fell out of his pant's pocket in the transmission? Will little Timmy be able to play the piano again after his tragic run-in with Aunt Matilda's pet armadillo?? Tune in tomorrow, for the next exciting chapter of... "As the Crankshaft (hopefully) Turns"!

[Marshall V. Daut]

Art's description is considerably more interesting than the reality show I've been living with this %$&^% car!!! "Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of a Model A? The Shadow knows!" Or, " Tune in tomorrow. Same Bat-time, same Bat-channel."
Marshall, cousin of Ming the Merciless (Anyone remember him?)

[jb-ob]

'Ming the Merciless' and the Clay People with Flash Gordon.....remember the rocket with a sparkler in the back gliding down a string ??

"Stay Tuned Kiddies for Another Thrill Packed Episode of Marshall's Maddening Model 'A'.......

Currently 4 - zip

Good Luck to our Super Hero

[Marshall V. Daut]

"jb-ob" -
BINGO!!! You got it!
Marshall

[Larry Jenkins]

In spite of all the fun jabs and one little "dumb ass" one, how many of us would ask for that kind of help from one who is pretty knowledgeable? ...

[Art Newland]

It's normal to assume the new problem comes from something you just repaired. If you have ever been a repair-person for hire, just ask one of your customers.

Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of a Model A?

Or any machine for that matter! The next broken thing can be right around the corner, it's just unfortunate that it breaks just after you fix something else. It really screws up the whole "diagnostic flow". Marshal, best of luck with this repair and I hope we'll all learn something new from your trial-of-fire. Thanks for sharing.

[jb-ob]

OK Marshall, time is up !

Went through enough suspense last week, what's up ???

No extra innings or over time !

The American Public (Ford Barn) has a right to know !

You stringing us along or what ??

And where is my Model A News ??

JB

[Marshall V. Daut]

O.K. Enough suspense. It's time to reveal the cause of my problem cited in the initial posting on the first page of this thread. I did not post the answer before now because I didn't want to prematurely broadcast what I had found - only to get another shock when it happened again after announcing to the world the problem. Even though I am not 100% ready, it's not fair to the "Fordbarn" readers to keep dragging this thing out. The reason for the engine locking up and refusing to turn over has been discovered and repaired. But it's not as simple as that. The engine and transmission have been re-installed into the car for the fourth time, but not started due to other time constraints. The starter now turns the engine over at a good clip, even without depressing the clutch (read my postings in this thread to get up to speed on the problem and subsequent dribblings of information). But therein lies the rub! Recall that before I first started the engine two weeks ago, I could hand crank it and the starter had no trouble turning over the engine enough to start it. In other words, the situation is exactly the same now as then. Gulp! I will not know if I actually fixed the problem until the engine is started again tomorrow. What went wrong two weeks ago happened within 20 seconds of the engine starting. If after finding the problem and making the repair, the engine bangs and locks up again, I will be completely frazzled.
But I know most of you are more interested in learning the cause of the problem with my engine. Well, it turned out not to be in the engine after all. Maybe I should have known that, but this engine was possibly THE worst "rebuilt" Model A engine I have ever seen. I'm sure my older friend, who has owned this car since 1970, sought out the cheapest repair job he could find 30 years ago and paid commensurately. Yeah, he's that kind of Model A owner. Anyway, in my own defense for not suspecting the guilty party at first, this engine needed everything to make it usable, absorbing 96% of my time with this project. It was only natural to assume that my life-saving efforts to resuscitate a corpse went haywire somewhere. A short list of my friend's engine problems before repairs included:
(1) .060" pistons in 0.080" cylinders
(2) Pistons had been knurled 360 degrees on the entire skirt surface up to the ring grooves to compensate for being undersized
(3) 0.035 piston ring end gaps because the rings were wrong
(4) The valve seats had been cut at an angle, presumably because the drill with seat grinding bit had been hand-held instead of mounted on an arbor in the valve guide bore
(5) The rear main bearing's oil drain tube was lying at the bottom of the pan
(6) Numerous chips in the Babbitt, both mains and rods
(7) The front Babbitt thrust surface on the rear main bearing saddle was worn to almost nothing and the rear thrust surface had broken off in a half-moon chunk and was lying next to the drain tube in the bottom of the oil pan = 0.040" crankshaft end play
(8) Main bearings so were loose that at least eight shims were removed from the mains alone!
(9) Deep groove worn in the flywheel surface from clutch disk rivets
(10) Clutch fingers were more than 1" from the top surface instead of the required 5/8" to 11/16"
(11) Shot throwout and pilot bearings
Well, you get the idea. There's more, but why bother? So, my first thought when the engine started banging and then seized was that I had scr*wed something up inside the engine. That's why my focus fell on the engine instead of the real culprit = the transmission. Duh on me! Those who suggested the transmission was at fault were partially correct. It wasn't the transmission per se; actually, it was the NEW front bearing on the input shaft. Within 10 minutes of posting this problem here, Larry Brumfield emailed me off-line and nailed the problem. Others were on the right track, but no one actually stated the front bearing and input shaft specifically.
Background: I had replaced both main transmission bearings because lube was almost flowing out of both ends of the case. I have done this job 100 times before. I know the front bearing was not binding and locking in the transmission case after I had installed it because upon the initial power plant installation after rebuilding the engine, the engine could be easily hand cranked. Only AFTER the engine ran for a few seconds did it lock up. I am fearful it will do the same thing this time. See my dilemma? WHAT ON EARTH would have caused the input shaft to seize so quickly and firmly with a new bearing? The bearing still turns nicely on the input shaft after removing the input shaft from the case for inspection, so it is not damaged or defective. The baffle plate is oriented correctly behind the bearing. I will finish putting the external parts on the engine tomorrow and start it up. Hopefully the transmission locking up was just a fluke. But I have never had this happen to me before. Has anyone else heard of this? Even after working on these things since 1966, I am obviously not immune to being stumped by a new mechanical problem. And I thought I had seen it all! NOPE!!!
The final piece of the puzzle will be posted tomorrow night. Same Bat-Time, same Bat-Channel.
Marshall

[tbirdtbird]

"The bearing still turns nicely on the input shaft after removing the input shaft from the case for inspection, so it is not damaged or defective"

So how do you have any idea that this is what locked up?

The engine sounds like it was pure junk.
.060" pistons in 0.080" cylinders? Really? Someone needs to have their tools taken away.

Surely it is not possible that you did not dial in the FW housing..........If the FW housing angle were bad enough I can see the input shaft being bound up.
Or is everything so chewed up back there that this cannot be properly done. How do we even know if the crank is setting in its correct centers?
With pistons fit like that then I would say all bets are off to the actual health of the motor at any point in time regardless of the effort you put into it....who knows what else is wrong that you haven't even found yet

[jb-ob]

Geese, a grenade motor and transmission.....What could possibly go wrong???

I'll be back for another installment tomorrow Mister Wizard.

JB

[Marshall V. Daut]

"tbirdtbird" -
Hmmm...that's a scary thought! When I tested the input shaft upon power plant disassembly this past Thursday, it would not budge AT ALL, which is why it would not allow the engine to turn. I removed the input shaft, placed the nose on the garage floor, and tapped around the rim of the bearing. It may have been jammed because after I did that, the bearing turned on the shaft. Test fitting the input shaft and bearing back into the transmission case, everything worked and the tranny was normal in operation going through the gears. If the bearing had been shoved too closely against the baffle and stop rim, why did this happen during the engine running, but not before, i.e. during assembly? In other words, the bearing was not jammed against the thrust plate and stop rim when the engine went in the first time. Your suggestion that the problem lies somewhere else in the transmission gives me pause to worry. But once again I must ask: what, where, how and why would this happen?
Marshall

[tbirdtbird]

Marshall I have great respect for your work. You are one of the few knowldgeable posters here that doesn't just run off at the mouth. But I have to wonder if the root cause of the problem has been found, unless there is more you are not telling

[daveymc29]

But I have never had this happen to me before. Has anyone else heard of this? Even after working on these things since 1966, I am obviously not immune to being stumped by a new mechanical problem. And I thought I had seen it all! NOPE!!!

Well that's what the guy said when his horse died.
"I have never had this happen to me before." lan't it?

[Marshall V. Daut]

"tbirdtbird" -
Thank you for the kind words. Very humbling...
In regards to the transmission, upon removal from the case, the bearing would not turn on the input shaft until I tapped it downward, as explained in my recent post. Something had acted upon it to force the bearing and thrust plate together and bind against the shaft's stop rim. Upon reassembly, everything tested o.k. I sure hope there isn't something else wrong in the tranny. You bring up a point that has been nagging me since Thursday: did I actually fix the problem, or was there something else I missed inside the transmission? I can't imagine what. A Model A transmission is such a simple animal and almost bulletproof when assembling. Other than mistakenly swapping the short and long bearings inside the cluster gear, I don't think the Model A transmission can be put back together improperly, yet still function. It had worked fine (except for the lube hemorrhaging) until the new main bearings were installed. I guess we'll have to wait until later tomorrow to see if the problem is fixed.
Marshall

[Tom Wesenberg]

I'd be pulling the shift tower and double check the shift forks to be sure they are both engaged in the grooves of the gears. This is one thing I'm very careful about because of what can happen when two gears slide into mesh at the same time. If the tranny is on the bench this is easy to assemble, but with the tranny in the car I like to get down and look through the crack as I lower the tower into place.

From the work done on the engine, it would be worth it just to look inside the tranny anyway.