An odd clutch problem that's new to me!!!

[DougT]

Originally Posted by Marshall V. Daut

I'll bet the front bearing is locked against the gear again, which stops the engine dead in its revolution. I suspect the problem lies somewhere in the input shaft, but we'll all have to wait until tomorrow night or Wednesday to know for sure.
Ain't working on these cars fun????
Marshall

Marshall, when you say the bearing is locked against the gear, are you talking counter gear or input gear? Before you pull the trans apart, check the endplay in the shafts. You wouldn't want the snout of the input bottoming in the crank or the splines bottoming on the flywheel. If they did, it could force the shaft back into the trans and cause the problem if I'm understanding it right. Another thought would be the input shaft bent somewhere like the pilot snout.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I can't imagine something in the tranny stopping a running engine without there being severe damage. Wish I was there to help, as I like a good mystery, but even better is learning the solution.

[iverson]

any chance something is in the pilot bearing hole? that would push back the input shaft?

[john charlton]

Luckily over the years I have a selection of good used transmissions from people who have swapped to a 39 trans . If you have another good trans like me just swap it out completely . If you still have the same problem then you are suffering from "baby mouse ghost syndrome !!!" How about running the motor in the car without the trans installed might be final proof where the fault lays or is that lies HHMMMM .

John in sunny Suffolk County England

[john charlton]

Thinking about it maybe the tapping noise you get before lockup is the transmission trying to get into gear and the bang is when it does . When you take the tower off the gear has returned to its correct position thus throwing you off the scent . Maybe a gear with a shallow shoulder which allows the fork to become disengaged or worn/misaligned fork or combination of both . Just a thought .

John in same place but raining now Suffolk County England .

[tinkirk]

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I'm not seeing here where you ran the motor on the stand without the trans attached i think i would run motor on stand or how ever you want before installing in the car before and after attaching the trans.
Don't see where you mentioned, where the ticking noise is coming from before everything comes to stop.

[Marshall V. Daut]

The tapping noise appears to be coming from the rear of the engine or inside the bellhousing. The engine doesn't run long enough before locking up for me to isolate where the tapping is coming from. But it must be telling me that things will shut down shortly - and they do.
As I am becoming a speed expert at removing and install the engine and tranny in record time, I may just shove the engine back in without the tranny, as suggested. That way, if the engine works without locking up, I can consider the problem to be the transmission or possibly the clutch area. Kind of a Rube Goldberg way of solving the problem, but at this point, I'm about ready to try even this drastic and labor-redundant experiment.
M.

[john charlton]

With the going into gear theory the gear does not need to be fully home,only enough to lock up the trans .Undersize gear groove/ oversize shifter fork ??? Just another thought .Maybe try another tower but I would try running the engine with no trans first.

John in rainy Suffolk County England.

[larrys40]

Marshall... this is quite the drama. I have refrained from commenting and probably still should. This is really fairly simple. run the engine on a test stand and make sure the engine will perform on the stand. Obviously any unusual noises etc will be known.

Then add the trans to it sans ujoint. You may want to pull the rear bearing retainer so you can check out the front and rear bearings simply ( including the pocket bearing) and make sure the front input shaft is meshing with the cluster. Are you sure the cluster is good and no teeth broken ( laying in bottom of trans case ready to be picked up).
Once all is verified reassemble the trans ensuring all bearings are good.

In my opinion aside from internals in the engine the only things that are really going to lock up the engine to a stop are :
clutch issue - exploded or jamming
cluster/input shaft / gear lock up
total bearing lock up on main trans bearings. take all apart and ensure they are good.
Once these are verified and installed/mated to the test stand to verify it should be a known good at that point.

Test stand run to your liking... then install.
If I were working on it after engine is verified good alone with flywheel and clutch I would disassemble trans and replace all the bearings. Lets face it.. the bearings are less than $50 for all. Since you can't see the rollers and race inside the front and rear bearings to me those are an unkown. for $20 you can replace both.

Good luck - Hopefully the saga and drama will come to a quick close for you.
I had a vibration issue once before and discovered it was a slightly bowed torque tube. I had the in and out 3 times in one evening. Finally covered everything but the torque tube. Replace it and all was well. Hang in there! There is light at the end of the tunnel.

Larry Shepard

[Art Newland]

Marshall, is there an engine stand available from another Model A guy/club local to you? Would be great to run it out of the car. I was also thinking about the severely worn thrust bearing you mentioned early in the thread. Could your fix/replacement be installed incorrectly, or could this indicate that there is an extreme force pushing on the crank?

[Marshall V. Daut]

Update: I installed just the engine in the car this morning without the bellhousing and transmission in an effort to trace why the newly-rebuilt engine locks up after a few seconds running. With it bolted in place and everything hooked up, the engine started...and stayed running. It did not knock real loud and suddenly stop, as it did before, refusing to be turned over by hand crank or starter. So the problem is NOT in the engine. Hurray on that count!
I am now left with the transmission or possibly the clutch. The engine locked up with the clutch trunion arm hooked up and then also with it disconnected. I assume I can then rule out the clutch. That leaves the transmission, which I will disassemble tomorrow. Hopefully a smoking gun will be found inside.
At least we know the engine is o.k. We're almost there!
Marshall

[tbirdtbird]

Yay!

[Mitch//pa]

Doing the diagnosis this way beats pulling the motor 9.5 times and performing exploratory surgery...

[Marshall V. Daut]

Yes, I wish I had done this after the third failure. But, hope springs eternal in the human breast. I thought each time I had solved the problem before I re-re-re-installed the power pant. Obviously NOT.
Marshall

[Mitch//pa]

I had a super bad vibration on one last year, (a fordbarners car) it felt like the bottom end of the motor..pulled the trans then started it up,,same vibration,,, pulled the clutch assy off vibration was gone,,, turns out the bolt holes for the pressure plate were drilled off center on the fly wheel so the clutch was not turning eccentric with the crank... we were able to see the pressure plate bobbinging a little.
Replaced the flywheel and all was good

[john charlton]

My money is on a bad shifter rail/fork alignment maybe bad pin certainly in the tower/fork/detent /sliding gear area . I along with all of us await with bated breath !!!

John in same weather same place .

[tbirdtbird]

YIKES! Mitch, how does stuff like this happen anyway? it never ran right, then.
It must have vibrated like the dickens....babbitt must have loved it

Marshall, I am betting there is a back story to the tranny that the owner is not telling you. Parts inside don't go bad suddenly while you are peacefully working on the motor

wonder what triggered him to suddenly make him spend money and have you work on the motor? there is more to this

[Mitch//pa]

YOOO Dave,,
Here is the thread i dug up about it....

http://fordbarn.com/forum/showthread...light=Flywheel


your right on if he would have driven it the mains would have been beat out....

[George Miller]

I think all of us have been through this sort of thing. I learned when working on cars in my dads garage, to not lessen to what the owner said was wrong with his car. Say to him just tell me what it is doing. If not they can get you off in left field. That is just the way us humans are.

[Art Newland]

An easy trap to fall in is when you see the same thing over and over again, "assuming" it's the same-old thing without really checking it!