skip wat6er pumps

[lenmissy]

sorry I opened a can of worms lenmissy

[41ford1]

Donald1950,

I am going to install a pair of Skip's pumps on my '41 since it boiled over on the NE tour. I will be flushing the system and refilling it per Skip's instructions. I am doing it on the recommendation on the other folks in the tour group. Right now I am not sure if the pumps will completely cure my problem. My truck doesn't run hot if it's moving faster than 20mph. My problem seems to be when caught in a traffic jam or at parade pace. It could very well be the crank mounted fan needs some help. I'll post the results in this thread.

[lenmissy]

Originally Posted by lenmissy

do skip pumps make 40 flattie run cooler how much are they how many fins do they have len

what did i start lenmissy

[41ford1]

Lenmissy,

It was a legit question. The day of the boil over the ambient temp was in excess of 95°. On engines with a crank mounted fan the issue may be air flow at idle. I'll see and let you know here in a few days.

[lenmissy]

Originally Posted by G.M.

Lawrie The configuration of the 32 to 36 heads don't have the room for the turbine impeller. The improved impeller Skip provides in the 32 to 36 pumps he modifies pump about as much water as possible for the early engines. I see him test them and once in a while look over the tests sheets and with him consistantly holding the same tolerances on each pump they all test at 92 Gallons each in 5 minutes. These were at 55 gallons stock before being modified. The 37 to 48 pumps with the turbine are 110 gallons and were 65 stock. The percentage of increase on the early and late pumps are about the same. My early 35 and 36s run a very slight bit cooler then the 39s. The fan is larger on the 39s but is down low on the radiator. A 6 blade on the 32 to 36 provides better cooling at lower RPMs in town. As I mentioned many times my 39 P/U which has the fan on the generator like the 32 to 36 cars has an industrial 6 bladed fan and a shrowd and will run at a fast idle on a 95 degree day for over 2 hours and never get to 180. Some old Ford industrial engines such as Schramm air compressors ran all day at higher RPMs and I doubt they got hot. I happen to have one, it has a BIG radiator and a large industrial 6 bladed fan plus better impellers in the pumps. The 2 6 blade fans I mentioned before on my 33 phaeton and the 39 P/U came from the attic of Schramms parts dept. I know Dick Schramm and a number of years ago he left me go up in the attic to hunt for Ford parts and the blades were the only thing I found. LARGE dumpster loads of new flathead engines and parts were thrown out several years before I got there. G.M.

did I start something sorry lenmissy

[G.M.]

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41 I'm confident you will see an improvent but as I mentioned many times it still won't be a parade car. If you have any problem contact Skip. The person Don mentioned installed a set of Skips pumps and in a short time returned them with shaft damage. We have never seen this before. Skip repaired them and sent them back and in a few weeks they came back again with the same damage. This time Skip found a large gob of RTV or silicon down in the oil passages on the face of the pump closeing off the lubricant to the pumps. This person chose to come on a forum before getting help from the provider for a problem he created. The problem was resolved at no cost to the customer that caused the problem and I'm sure he now has a cooler engine as I have seen him recommend Skips pumps on other posts. Skip refaces the mounting surface of every pump making a smooth flat surface. The face of the block needs to be clean with all old gasket material removed and a thin film of grease on both sides of the new gaskets provided with the pumps is all that is required for a good seal. Also blow air through the oil holes on the face of the block to make sure they are open. I have an engine that one oil hole was never drilled at the factory. I put an oiler tube on that pump to lubricate it once in a while. G.M.

[donald1950]

the person I, don, mentioned was tom in texas and his problem and your caustic remarks to him that prompted my letter to shelly was on his 36 ford, with 36 pumps, that he was having problems with water blowing out the radiator cap at highway speeds. he may have had other problems with shaft damage that skip fixed, but the specific occourance was your getting nasty with him over his inability of not being able to follow your instructions was that issue. if need be i will see if i have that posting saved at my work computer on monday and i can post the letter and your response, if need be. we will see if we can get the story correct. and i do not believe tom ever posted on fordbarn again after being insulted.
i do also remember your postings with the person who had the plug of silicone in the oil passage and i do not recall, in that posting, of you being anything but helpfull to him and sharing the story on fordbarn of what the problem was for the experience of others.
i did also burn a set of bearings on a new pair of NAPA early pumps once by putting them on dry. after that dumb experiance, i filled always filled the oil hole in the pumps with motor oil and kept topping the oil off every other day and let them sit soaking for a week prior to installing to saturate the oil into the oilite bearings before installing.
don

[donald1950]

in my 41 pick up i had an 59 & 8BA and the bigest problem i had was under 20 mph and in traffic here in south texas with both skips and speedway pumps. air flow is so low and idle and low traffic speeds that the ultimate souloution was speedway pumps and also 2100 CFM pusher fan in front of the radiator.
i had the same low speed heating problem with the 59 motor, the 8BA and then a 350 chevy in it. radiator size and air flow were consistant with all 3 motors. i had a 3, 4 and 5 tube radiator built and air flow was always the biggest factor. like GM says, you still wont have a parade vehicle, but if i had a high volume fan and a shroud on it like GMs 39 truck i am sure things would have been different than with just the pumps alone. i am sure i would have been able to have it sit at idle for extended periods had i raised the air flow, high volume fan, and drawn that high volume of air through the entire radiator, shroud, like he does with his 39 truck.
don

[FL&WVMIKE]

One of the biggest reasons people have heating problems, in traffic, and not on the road, is that they have set their idling speed too low. At slow idle, your pumps, simply do not pump water and not as much air is being exchanged in the engine compartment.
Just set up your idle speed and your heating problems may go away. It's worth a shot !
MIKE

[lenmissy]

sorry to open a can of worns lenmissy

[41ford1]

Lenmissy
Don't feel sorry. Everyone here has lots of experience and information. Right now I'm makeing like a sponge, taking it all in. Flushing and installing Skip's pumps tomorrow. Stay tuned.

Mike,
I already upped the idle to 700 RPM last year. It didn't seem to help. It always tended to run towards hot when going slow or stopped. On the tour was the first time it puked.

[Frank The Plumber]

Thank you GM. .Frank

[G.M.]

41 when you fill the radiator it's best to just put plain water in until you check it out for leaks etc. After is ran and tested then put your mixture in. Leave the cap off and start the engine letting it idle filling the water up into the neck, leave the cap off and leave it run at a fast idle until it warms up adding more water if required. The main thing you want to know is that there are no pressure leaks from compression in the engine. The water must be up in the neck to see any bubbles that would come from compression. If the water level is down in the tank the bubbles aren't visible. Small bubbles will go away when you add the Barrs stop leak. We put a large bottle of the clear liquid heavy duty Barrs with the aluminum flakes in every engine. G.M.

[41ford1]

Folks,
Here is my plan:
1. Drain the coolantand save it to recycle. Refill with plain water and 1 cup of Cascade powder. Run this to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard. Refill with plain water and run that to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard again
2. Pull out the pumps and radiator.
3 Reverse flush the radiator.
4. Check the oil passages.
5. Install the radiator and new pumps. Grease both sides of the gaskets prior to install.
6. Fill with plain water. Run engine to temp + 20 min to check the system.
7. Drain and discard water.
8. Fill sytem with 2 gallons of antifreeze, 2 bottles of purple ice(or equal), Barrs and water.
9. Run it to temp - down the road and at idle to see if there is an improvement.
I will post my findings here.

Stay tuned to this channel

[Tim Ayers]

Ah, a happy ending. Doesn't it feel good to share the love?

[BillM]

GM, would you happen to have a graph of flow at different RPM's of both original and Skip's pumps you could share?

[Frank The Plumber]

Friends:
I never really understood all of these over heating problems with these flat head engines, The part I do not understand is why it is so hard to solve. Granted I am not a specialist in the field of water pumps but as a plumbing contractor who also installs home heating systems I have a good knowledge both practical and theoretical dynamics of the principles of btu transfer.
I will say that I do not have a flathead in my trucks engine bay, I have a 351 stroked out to a 408, it makes a lot more heat than a flat head and it sends that heat to an aluminum radiator. Truthfully I think the radiator could be a copper core and would still be able to cool this engine which I believe generates a higher BTU out put than a flathead does, I therefore do not believe the cooling problem is in the radiators unless you are using a junk radiator that is limiting BTU transfer due to corrosion blockage.
Do the number of fan blades on a pump matter? Not really, the shape contour and RPM at which those blades rotate are going to determine the efficiency of that pump, therefore a pump that has 4 veins, 6 veins or 8 veins should not be considered better or worse than each other without direct engineered application trials. In a restricted system an 8 blade impeller may cause cavitation or pressure bubbles that actually would cause it to be less efficient than a 6 or a 4 vein impeller.
It would be in the best interest of the science of the process to determine where the design flaw exists on these flathead engines. Is it an internal casting flaw? Is it a flow problem occurring as the coolant is being circulated? Is it a flow capacity issue, an operating pressure issue, a fan RPM issue/air circulation issue? I notice some go 90 degrees hard to the radiator, some go 45 degrees to the radiator in their tubing routing, 45 would be best.
I would say that the root cause of the problem would be low water flow or that the problem could be solved by increased water flow. To achieve this you can route your hosing with sweeps and long radius tubing, use the pump with the best flow characteristics that are test proven not just acclaimed, test the flow characteristics of a variety of pump and vein designs at different rotational speeds through an operating system, redesign the fan assembly to conform to a stock yet accepted specification that is efficient and moves a maximum amount of air through the radiator.
Just because something rolled out of a factory 75 years ago does not mean that you should suffer through its use and keep it bone stock as an ill designed system.
The man who has the engineering expertise, and capacity to produce a well designed comprehensive cooling system for these engines is going to make a tidy penny. The man who can design a comprehensive installment guide that is proven through testing and field use is going to be a hero. My suggestion is that from now on we should work together as a group to define exactly how to cool these engines and share proven tested knowledge and data to achieve that goal instead of claims and counter claims. Science.
Thank you, Frank The Plumber.

[JM 35 Sedan]

Sounds like a plan Chuck. It will be interesting to read about your results. I know I'm one who kept telling you to get a set of Skips pumps during the NE tour. I know what his pumps and over flow pressure release valve did for my '35 and hopefully you will get similar results.

Originally Posted by 41ford1

Folks,
Here is my plan:
1. Drain the coolantand save it to recycle. Refill with plain water and 1 cup of Cascade powder. Run this to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard. Refill with plain water and run that to operating temp + 20 min. Drain and discard again
2. Pull out the pumps and radiator.
3 Reverse flush the radiator.
4. Check the oil passages.
5. Install the radiator and new pumps. Grease both sides of the gaskets prior to install.
6. Fill with plain water. Run engine to temp + 20 min to check the system.
7. Drain and discard water.
8. Fill sytem with 2 gallons of antifreeze, 2 bottles of purple ice(or equal), Barrs and water.
9. Run it to temp - down the road and at idle to see if there is an improvement.
I will post my findings here.

Stay tuned to this channel

[tom/illinois]

Enjoyed read'em. Worms either dry up or crawl back where they came from.

[expavr]

There is a factory installed fan shroud on my 40 Tonner. As near as I can tell all the large trucks had fan shrouds. IMO Ford recognized the need for the shroud to direct as much air as possible through the radiator in this application. While moving the coolant through the block is important, its only one part of the heat transfer system. That said I use a pair of Skip's pumps, a 2# cap, a mixture of antifreeze, purple ice,water and no stats which results in an operating range of 180*-190* from <5MPH to >50MPH in temperatures of 80*+. These numbers tell me that its possible to operate a V8 flathead within a reasonable cooling range over a wide ambient temperature range.