distributor drop in problem

[fried okra]

My 1931 Tudor has lost spark so I pulled the distributor to swap it out with two other dizzies I've got to see if that would solve the "no spark" problem.

The original distributor is out now, and I removed the dizzy anti-rotation lock in pin on side of the head, but none of the three dizzies I've got will drop fully back into the head.

Right now the locator pins on the bottom of the distributors are about 1/8" "proud" of the location hole on the head when trying to install each of them.

All three of my dizzies are similar. None will drop back in as they should.
The locator hole in the head is good and clean now, but the dizzy pin won't reach the locator hole.

The dizzie shafts are clean and I cleaned the recess in the upper part of the lower shaft. The lower dizzie shaft seems free, as in not frozen, and seems engaged with the oil pump, as it doesn't rotate.

The dizzie upper shaft will lock in fine with the lower shaft, as in the shaft won't rotate, but the dizzie won't drop down.

What am I not seeing here?

[alexiskai]

You may have checked this already, but the distributor shaft must be rotated in such a way that the tab on the upper shaft lines up with the slot in the lower shaft. If you turn the cam while installing the distributor, you should be able to find the spot where the upper shaft inserts properly.

[harryc]

could you please re-phrase the question ?

[Joe K]

The tab on the shaft is a little "off center." It goes in well as designed, but turn the distributor shaft 180 degrees it doesn't (shouldn't) fit.

Wear between the components MAY wear or bend the tang (male) portion or widen the groove in the female portion. I've seen operable Model A engines come into my shop with a little slip of leather between the parts to take up space.

ANOTHER issue you may want to check: check your distributor/oil pump gear for "rising." There is only a spring holding the distributor/oil pump gear housing/sleeve to its seat in the valve chamber.

I had let my Model A (avatar) sit for a couple of years between use. Parts in the valve chamber apparently rusted together in the inactivity. Cranking the engine trying to start it seemingly "raised" the distributor/oil pump gear - and literally "raised" the distributor - which is where I first noticed an issue.

Joe K

[Y-Blockhead]

Sounds like you may have pulled the lower shaft up when you removed your distributor and it is no longer aligned with the drive gear.

Put a screwdriver in the hole and see if you can turn the lower shaft.

[fried okra]

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Thanks, yes, the shafts are rotated where where they lock in correctly. I presume if they lock in properly that the 180 degrees is not the issue? The off center tabs seem to be correctly engaged.

JoeK....seems your thought on the "gear rising" might be the issue.

How did you fix the gear rising problem?

[johnbuckley]

you'll get loads of advice on this Fried Okra! ...I suspect that that possibly the upper or lower shaft are not clicking into place here's my suggestions and PS the lock screw at the side of the block should not stop rotation ... it's there only to stop the dissy lifting up.
1. Install the lower distributor shaft by inserting it into the cylinder head. Oil the shaft with engine oil. Use a screw driver in to rotate the shaft so that it slots into place. The shaft can be inserted either end down as both the key ways are off set.
2. Place the distributor in the cylinder head whilst correctly positioning the locating pin with the hole on the head. Rotate the cam on the top of the shaft to rotate it so that upper and lower shaft mate correctly. (Very occasionally[ NB THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM IN YOUR CASE AS THE ORIGINAL DISSY FIITED OK] one may find the shaft too long if the head has been machined. Grind the shaft carefully if this is the case but check several times that the shafts, distributor and head are correctly mated in every other way are correct in every other respect before undertaking this irreversible step!)
3. Install the locking screw and jamb nut into the side of the head. Screw in the locking screw only far enough to lock the distributor in place to eliminate it lifting out. Adjusting it too tight is unnecessary and can cause binding of the shaft and bushing.

[fried okra]

Thanks, Y-blockhead, yes I tried that with a big screw driver and it does not rotate, but does now seem stuck.....as in has slight lateral type movement.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by fried okra

How did you fix the gear rising problem?

Took the gear/housing/spring out. Bought new gear. Cleaned up housing (they're reproduced now), put it together with the pin/collar, and put back in place. All easily done after removing the carburetor, oil pipe, and valve chamber cover.

A wire wheel on the component parts MIGHT have cleaned it up enough to operate - for a while until re-rusting occurs.

This gear/drive is one of those which takes quite a beating in real life. So does the center cam gear - but that one is harder to do something about.

At the end - re-time engine - voila...


Joe K

[fried okra]

The lower shaft is still installed and seems locked in to the oil pump drive.

It will not rotate so assume it is locked in. It has slight lateral motion if prodded by a large screw driver so does not appear to be frozen.

I am wondering if outta remove the lower shaft? Is there a good tool to do that?

I've tried twisting two screw drivers into the slot but it doesn't seem to wanna rise up when pulling.

[Joe K]

I've tried twisting two screw drivers into the slot but it doesn't seem to wanna rise up when pulling.

I've seen distributors with "long drive shafts" (i.e. extend from the distributor DOWN into the block and to the oil pump drive gear) made in one piece. It seemingly was a common JC Whitney thing back in the day "to reduce free play" (i.e. instead of leather pieces.)

I can't say I've ever seen a long shaft extending "up."

More than likely you got water somehow into the oil pump drive gear/housing. The "collar" at the top of the housing doubles as the "locator" for the oil pump drive gear tang. I'm imagining the two are rusted together.

Rust of course occupies 1-1/2 times the volume of the carbon steel it's formed of.

Pix below

Note the "pin" holding the upper collar. Perhaps you can file/grind off the upset head and use a pin-punch to drive it through - releasing the collar to go up? Meh. Spring still in way.



Joe K

[fried okra]

Hmmm.....the car has not seen water in years and was running fine when shut down in the driveway and I pulled the distributor to swap it out with another to see if could get spark back.

I am running the standard two piece stock Ford dizzy shafts. And tried three distributors and none will fully drop the last 1/2" back into the head. And the dizzy lock screw is fully removed.

The lower dizzy shaft is still in place and does not appear to be frozen or stuck. It has slight lateral movement when prodded by a large screw driver.

[Gary WA]

Originally Posted by fried okra

Hmmm.....the car has not seen water in years and was running fine when shut down in the driveway and I pulled the distributor to swap it out with another to see if could get spark back.

I am running the standard two piece stock Ford dizzy shafts. And tried three distributors and none will fully drop the last 1/2" back into the head. And the dizzy lock screw is fully removed.

The lower dizzy shaft is still in place and does not appear to be frozen or stuck. It has slight lateral movement when prodded by a large screw driver.

is the pin on bottom of dizzy larger in diameter than hole? Been there!

[johnbuckley]

Originally Posted by fried okra

The lower dizzy shaft is still in place and does not appear to be frozen or stuck. It has slight lateral movement when prodded by a large screw driver.

Ah, I now suspect that the problem is the lower shaft has pulled up slightly from the drive and crud/rust is stopping it going back down .. need lots of airline blowing and thin oil ... you will need to remove the lower shaft somehow . ( the lower shafts do wobble laterally - its wobble is restricted once the dissy and its shaft are connected to it )

[fried okra]

JoeK....The locator pins on the dizzy shaft seem ok, flush with the shaft and three dizzies and none will drop in properly.

johnbuckley....I think you might be onto the issue. Seems the lower shaft has risen bout 1/2". At least in my simplistic way of thinking that is what it feels like.

I've tried tapping lightly on the lower shaft and it doesn't wanna go down though, and doesn't rotate, seems engaged with the oil pump drive.

Maybe I should try and soak it with a good rust penetrant.

Anything better than kerosene for soaking lower shaft cavity?

[P.S.]

Use some needle nose pliers and pull the lower shaft out. Look down the hole with a flashlight and make sure the drive is clean and nothing fell in there.

[Joe K]

Originally Posted by fried okra

Anything better than kerosene for soaking lower shaft cavity?

PB Blaster. Has a small content of "oil of wintergreen" which those who read of Jake Hohman on "The Sand Pebbles" will remember.

Highly penetrating to rust.

Comes in an aerosol can, also container which you will need a separate pump sprayer.

Automatic response from my wife "PHEW - what have you been into?"

Joe K

[fried okra]

Thanks, Joe and Paul....I was thinking our 3-4 major parts suppliers might have a lower dizzy shaft puller but didn't find anything. Nothing in my garage will pull it out yet either.

Will have to peruse Harbor Freight tonight and see what kinda pliers they have

[Bob C]

I tried some Harbor Freight hose pliers and the middle size would fit down the hole but I couldn't grab the shaft. I think If you heated the and bent the end to 90º instead of it's 45º it might work.
I had one that the offset of the drive gear and the lower shaft didn't match and somebody beat them together. Made a collet to pull it out.

[alexiskai]

I’ve used these to retrieve items from tight spaces, might work here.