The Ford Barn

poolplayer1 · 10-13-2023, 11:08 AM

So I have my 302 initial timing set to 12 degree BTDC and its running good, eighter at idle or going down the road ( other than the overheating) problem.I was talking to a man that had his own auto repair shop here in town for about 45 years. He moved out of town a long time ago but came to visit his daughter for a week. I have known him for years and was a real good mechanic, especially on the 50's tru 90's cars. Anyway I was telling him about my wagon running hot. He asked me how I had my timing settings and I told him my settings. He said that my 302 should be set at 6 degree BTDC but at the same time he said that every engine is different. He said the simple way for me to do to do it was to advance the timing until I hear knocking/ pinging and than retard it until the pinging was gone. I remember when this man would set the carburetor idle screws by just listening to the motor. He would do the same when adjusting the distributor, just move it back and forth until he heard the engine running smoothly. He had a real good reputation as a excellent mechanic. I do understand and have heard the saying, If it aint broke, don't fix it but I wanted your opinion on the 2 different settings, where I have it now at 12 BTDC or the 6BTDC he mentioned. I guess I can always just play around with it to look at it to see how the engine reacts when running at 6 degree. What do you think?
You guys are the pro's compared to a learning in progress guy like me. Thanks to all as always.

Dobie Gillis · 10-13-2023, 11:24 AM

This is just my opinion but if it overheats with the timing set at 12 degrees I think I'd try a little more advance. Setting the timing at 6 degrees has a good chance of making it overheat worse.

poolplayer1 · 10-13-2023, 12:15 PM

Thanks Dobie, I'm always open to opinions and suggestions. Lets see what other guys have to say on this subject.

cadillac512 · 10-13-2023, 12:57 PM

If it's running hot, neither 6 degrees initial timing nor 12 degrees is going to fix it. The problem is not timing if it runs well but gets hot at 12 degrees.

Terry

40cpe · 10-13-2023, 12:57 PM

Initial timing has little to do with running hot except with prolonged idle. The distributor advances (or should) as engine speed increases. About 35 degrees should be close to max advance. A timing light should be used to set the distributor at 2500-3000 rpm to max advance and let the initial fall where it may. Distributor advance operation should be checked. If it isn't advancing, it should be corrected. Low timing is inefficient and because more fuel is being used, more heat is produced. If you still have the Load-O-Matic distributor, it relies on vacuum alone to provide advance. A vacuum leak or a bad vacuum advance will prevent any advance above the initial setting. Observing the timing with a timing light while revving the engine will tell you a lot.

cadillac512 · 10-13-2023, 01:15 PM

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He's running a '68 302 so no Load-o-matic distributor. Almost always in cases like this the radiator is simply not able to exchange enough heat, whether it be from mineral deposits inside it or just plain to small for the job. A retrofit electric fan seldom works as well as a stock type mechanical fan with shroud either. I'd be strongly suspicious of the cleanliness of the radiator unless it's been correctly cleaned recently or is new.
You do have a lot of heat to deal with in 100+ ambients and a/c as well as the engine. My 2 cents is saying a better radiator and a mechanical fan may be the real cure.

Terry

40cpe · 10-13-2023, 01:34 PM

[QUOTE=cadillac512;2262393]He's running a '68 302 so no Load-o-matic distributor. [QUOTE]

OOPS, missed that.

paul2748 · 10-13-2023, 03:27 PM

I have to ask - what are the temps and where/how is it being measured. The gauge alone, thermometer in the radiator, using one of those temperature guns at various parts of the engine? Relying on the gauge alone is not a good idea, especially if the stock gauge.

Another question - what gauges are you using and what senders are you using? Compatibility problem?

This can give us a better understanding of the problem.

cadillac512 · 10-13-2023, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul2748

I have to ask - what are the temps and where/how is it being measured. The gauge alone, thermometer in the radiator, using one of those temperature guns at various parts of the engine? Relying on the gauge alone is not a good idea, especially if the stock gauge.

Another question - what gauges are you using and what senders are you using? Compatibility problem?

This can give us a better understanding of the problem.

^^^^Excellent questions. Bottom line-Is it actually getting too hot or is a gauge lying to you?

Daves55Sedan · 10-13-2023, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 40cpe

If you still have the Load-O-Matic distributor, it relies on vacuum alone to provide advance. A vacuum leak or a bad vacuum advance will prevent any advance above the initial setting. Observing the timing with a timing light while revving the engine will tell you a lot.

First of all, timing should not be attempted until first disconnecting the vacuum line from the dizzy vacuum advance. You need to plug the tubing from the carb with a vacuum cap. If you have converted to rubber hose, just stick a sharpened pencil in the end of that hose and it will hold vacuum from the carburator. Now you are ready to check the timing as long as you have the idle/fuel mixture screws and the idle-speed setting properly adjusted.
Run engine at idle speed and flash timing light at the timing pointer. Adjust the distributor rotation till you get the desired timing. Factory setting for Y-blocks is something like 6 degrees BTDC, but some people here like it a little higher to compensate for this lousy ethanol gas we have nowdays.

Daves55Sedan · 10-13-2023, 06:41 PM

Easy way to check actual engine coolant temperature is to get one of those cheap cooking thermometers that you stick into a baked turkey (but don't use the wife's kitchen devices). Get a separate one to use just for garage projects.
Run the engine till warm up is done and remove radiator cap. Stick the thermometer down in the coolant. The needle on the thermometer will begin moving quickly. When the needle settles, that is your operating temperature at idle.

KULTULZ · 10-14-2023, 06:57 AM

If INITIAL TIMING is set @ 12BTDC and the engine doesn't rattle under load, there is something wrong.

If the timing marks show that amount of advance at correct curb idle (vacuum signal disconnected), either the curb idle is too high or there is something faulty either in the DIST mechanical advance, DIST install, timing chain and/or damper ring.

The MECHANICAL ADVANCE in the DIST has to have initial advance set @ OEM curb idle or it will show advance (mechanical advance cuts in)(and if the advance curve has not been modified). It has to have a ported vacuum signal to allow the OEM mechanical advance to work correctly.

You can plot the mechanical advance with a timing light and tach.

That has to be one hell of an AC COMP to draw the idle down like that. HOLLEY makes a throttle kicker kit to increase curb idle under engine load.

If the A/C COND install mod doesn't work, I would buy a QUALITY mechanical water temp gauge (for testing) and go from there. If you remove a radiator cap while the coolant is @ 190 degrees, the loss of cap pressure (opening) may allow the coolant to reach boiling point and that could be very bad.

If you could post some photo(s) of the COOLING MODULE and FEAD it would make things a lot easier. I am guessing a lot of air deflectors were not re-installed also. The incoming air has to be directed to move through the RAD. Does you fan have a good shroud?

The way the guy adjusted timing was referred to as POWER TIMING. That may be OK for a hot street engine but not for a driver with A/C.

KULTULZ · 10-14-2023, 09:27 AM

- CONTINUATION OF ABOVE POST -

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...ge/parts/46-74

The fan, is it a single or double blade? Is it contained within a shroud?

How is it triggered (coolant sensor)? Is it wired to increase speed w/ AC?

Can you post make and model no.?

NOTE - This thread is a continuation of a previous thread found here -

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331572

poolplayer1 · 10-14-2023, 02:24 PM

Thanks to all for your great information and advice on my project. I had to do some things today and was not be able to drive my car to see how it does on the road, until tomorrow. I am going to try to post pictures of the installation of the AC, Radiator, and fan. Hopefully you will be able to see them. The motor is a little dusty but I am waiting to get this overheating problem taken care off before I power wash the engine and engine bay.

poolplayer1 · 10-14-2023, 03:20 PM

That I have the camera on my iphone working, I decided to post a few more pixs of my wagon.

miker98038 · 10-14-2023, 03:38 PM

Given the advise from Vintage Air, the next thing is a proper shroud. Your losing a significant amount of surface area on that radiator with that fan set up. I’ve been there and done that.

The second picture I can see from the top of the radiator thru to the grille. That’s an air by pass at highway speed, and part of the problem. The condenser in front doesn’t help. Look at the shroud picture I posted in the other thread of my bird. It can be adapted from something else, doesn’t matter. You need airflow thru the whole radiator working surface.

The good news is your running 220 or so on a 105*day with the a/c on and didn’t boil. Running within 100* of ambient on our old cars with a/c added is pretty good, and you’re real close now.

Clearance for a proper shroud is going to be difficult with the fan as deep as it is.

Very nice classy ride.

poolplayer1 · 10-14-2023, 05:04 PM

Thank you miker98038. The guy at vintage air said that as long as the fan covers 75% of the radiator, it should be good. The fan has its own shroud and when its running at 3000 CFM, if you stand next to eighter fender, you can feel how much hot air its pulling away from the rad. I am limited to space between the fan and the water pump pulley. As you can see on the photo, I had to use allen type screws because the square head bolts were hitting the fan.
I had to move the rad, forward to get the extra space to fit the fan. That was a job because of the way the body is formed where the rad. sits at the bottom. That fan was the only one I could get that was not too deep.

KULTULZ · 10-14-2023, 05:27 PM

Quote:

The guy at vintage air said that as long as the fan covers 75% of the radiator, it should be good. The fan has its own shroud ...

That's not a shroud, it is a fan mounting bracket.

This is an electric fan and shroud assy -

KULTULZ · 10-14-2023, 07:01 PM

Am I seeing correctly? Is the upper and lower radiator hoses on the same side (end) of the radiator?

miker98038 · 10-14-2023, 10:33 PM

I’m not arguing with Vintage Air, but if that’s a 16” fan on a 16x20 or so core, you’re barely at 75%, probably under. Normally not a big deal, but at 105*+ there’s not much room for error. I just went thru 3 weeks of 95-103*, and I didn’t car how the car cooled. Short trip to the store and back, I’m done when it’s 90.

But you’re real close, you’ll figure it out.

Good eye Kultulz. I don’t know enough about radiators to know what the internal flow is. I’m just familiar with vertical and cross flow. Don’t remember if I ever had a vertical with the hoses on the same side.

10-13-2023, 11:08 AM	#1
poolplayer1 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 399	55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: So I have my 302 initial timing set to 12 degree BTDC and its running good, eighter at idle or going down the road ( other than the overheating) problem.I was talking to a man that had his own auto repair shop here in town for about 45 years. He moved out of town a long time ago but came to visit his daughter for a week. I have known him for years and was a real good mechanic, especially on the 50's tru 90's cars. Anyway I was telling him about my wagon running hot. He asked me how I had my timing settings and I told him my settings. He said that my 302 should be set at 6 degree BTDC but at the same time he said that every engine is different. He said the simple way for me to do to do it was to advance the timing until I hear knocking/ pinging and than retard it until the pinging was gone. I remember when this man would set the carburetor idle screws by just listening to the motor. He would do the same when adjusting the distributor, just move it back and forth until he heard the engine running smoothly. He had a real good reputation as a excellent mechanic. I do understand and have heard the saying, If it aint broke, don't fix it but I wanted your opinion on the 2 different settings, where I have it now at 12 BTDC or the 6BTDC he mentioned. I guess I can always just play around with it to look at it to see how the engine reacts when running at 6 degree. What do you think? You guys are the pro's compared to a learning in progress guy like me. Thanks to all as always.

10-13-2023, 11:24 AM	#2
Dobie Gillis Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Middle TN Posts: 1,060	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: This is just my opinion but if it overheats with the timing set at 12 degrees I think I'd try a little more advance. Setting the timing at 6 degrees has a good chance of making it overheat worse. __________________ Often wrong but never in doubt.

10-13-2023, 12:15 PM	#3
poolplayer1 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 399	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: Thanks Dobie, I'm always open to opinions and suggestions. Lets see what other guys have to say on this subject.

10-13-2023, 12:57 PM	#4
cadillac512 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Kansas Posts: 921	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: If it's running hot, neither 6 degrees initial timing nor 12 degrees is going to fix it. The problem is not timing if it runs well but gets hot at 12 degrees. Terry __________________ "It don't take but country smarts to solve the problem" (Smokey Yunick) '41 Merc Town Sedan / 260" 8CM engine '66 Fairlane four door / "warmed up" 302

10-13-2023, 12:57 PM	#5
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: Initial timing has little to do with running hot except with prolonged idle. The distributor advances (or should) as engine speed increases. About 35 degrees should be close to max advance. A timing light should be used to set the distributor at 2500-3000 rpm to max advance and let the initial fall where it may. Distributor advance operation should be checked. If it isn't advancing, it should be corrected. Low timing is inefficient and because more fuel is being used, more heat is produced. If you still have the Load-O-Matic distributor, it relies on vacuum alone to provide advance. A vacuum leak or a bad vacuum advance will prevent any advance above the initial setting. Observing the timing with a timing light while revving the engine will tell you a lot.

10-13-2023, 01:15 PM	#6
cadillac512 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Location: Kansas Posts: 921	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) He's running a '68 302 so no Load-o-matic distributor. Almost always in cases like this the radiator is simply not able to exchange enough heat, whether it be from mineral deposits inside it or just plain to small for the job. A retrofit electric fan seldom works as well as a stock type mechanical fan with shroud either. I'd be strongly suspicious of the cleanliness of the radiator unless it's been correctly cleaned recently or is new. You do have a lot of heat to deal with in 100+ ambients and a/c as well as the engine. My 2 cents is saying a better radiator and a mechanical fan may be the real cure. Terry __________________ "It don't take but country smarts to solve the problem" (Smokey Yunick) '41 Merc Town Sedan / 260" 8CM engine '66 Fairlane four door / "warmed up" 302

10-13-2023, 01:34 PM	#7
40cpe Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Star, MS Posts: 4,024	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: [QUOTE=cadillac512;2262393]He's running a '68 302 so no Load-o-matic distributor. [QUOTE] OOPS, missed that.

10-13-2023, 03:27 PM	#8
paul2748 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Midland Park, NJ Posts: 3,982	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: I have to ask - what are the temps and where/how is it being measured. The gauge alone, thermometer in the radiator, using one of those temperature guns at various parts of the engine? Relying on the gauge alone is not a good idea, especially if the stock gauge. Another question - what gauges are you using and what senders are you using? Compatibility problem? This can give us a better understanding of the problem. __________________ 48 Ford Conv 56 Tbird 54 Ford Victoria

10-13-2023, 06:41 PM	#11
Daves55Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Granite City, Illinois Posts: 3,008	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: Easy way to check actual engine coolant temperature is to get one of those cheap cooking thermometers that you stick into a baked turkey (but don't use the wife's kitchen devices). Get a separate one to use just for garage projects. Run the engine till warm up is done and remove radiator cap. Stick the thermometer down in the coolant. The needle on the thermometer will begin moving quickly. When the needle settles, that is your operating temperature at idle.

10-14-2023, 06:57 AM	#12
KULTULZ Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY Posts: 6,475	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: If INITIAL TIMING is set @ 12BTDC and the engine doesn't rattle under load, there is something wrong. If the timing marks show that amount of advance at correct curb idle (vacuum signal disconnected), either the curb idle is too high or there is something faulty either in the DIST mechanical advance, DIST install, timing chain and/or damper ring. The MECHANICAL ADVANCE in the DIST has to have initial advance set @ OEM curb idle or it will show advance (mechanical advance cuts in)(and if the advance curve has not been modified). It has to have a ported vacuum signal to allow the OEM mechanical advance to work correctly. You can plot the mechanical advance with a timing light and tach. That has to be one hell of an AC COMP to draw the idle down like that. HOLLEY makes a throttle kicker kit to increase curb idle under engine load. If the A/C COND install mod doesn't work, I would buy a QUALITY mechanical water temp gauge (for testing) and go from there. If you remove a radiator cap while the coolant is @ 190 degrees, the loss of cap pressure (opening) may allow the coolant to reach boiling point and that could be very bad. If you could post some photo(s) of the COOLING MODULE and FEAD it would make things a lot easier. I am guessing a lot of air deflectors were not re-installed also. The incoming air has to be directed to move through the RAD. Does you fan have a good shroud? The way the guy adjusted timing was referred to as POWER TIMING. That may be OK for a hot street engine but not for a driver with A/C.

10-14-2023, 09:27 AM	#13
KULTULZ Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY Posts: 6,475	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: - CONTINUATION OF ABOVE POST - https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...ge/parts/46-74 The fan, is it a single or double blade? Is it contained within a shroud? How is it triggered (coolant sensor)? Is it wired to increase speed w/ AC? Can you post make and model no.? NOTE - This thread is a continuation of a previous thread found here - https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331572 __________________ *** - WHY IS IT ... - ... that everything you buy in the grocery store is either wrapped in or contained in plastic but the government doesn't want you to carry it out in a plastic bag? WONDERING IN W(BY GOD)V ... DIAGNOSED CDO** - (OCD In Correct Alphabetical Order)

10-14-2023, 03:38 PM	#16
miker98038 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Kent, WA. Tucson, AZ Posts: 1,398	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: Given the advise from Vintage Air, the next thing is a proper shroud. Your losing a significant amount of surface area on that radiator with that fan set up. I’ve been there and done that. The second picture I can see from the top of the radiator thru to the grille. That’s an air by pass at highway speed, and part of the problem. The condenser in front doesn’t help. Look at the shroud picture I posted in the other thread of my bird. It can be adapted from something else, doesn’t matter. You need airflow thru the whole radiator working surface. The good news is your running 220 or so on a 105day with the a/c on and didn’t boil. Running within 100 of ambient on our old cars with a/c added is pretty good, and you’re real close now. Clearance for a proper shroud is going to be difficult with the fan as deep as it is. Very nice classy ride.

10-14-2023, 05:04 PM	#17
poolplayer1 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 399	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: Thank you miker98038. The guy at vintage air said that as long as the fan covers 75% of the radiator, it should be good. The fan has its own shroud and when its running at 3000 CFM, if you stand next to eighter fender, you can feel how much hot air its pulling away from the rad. I am limited to space between the fan and the water pump pulley. As you can see on the photo, I had to use allen type screws because the square head bolts were hitting the fan. I had to move the rad, forward to get the extra space to fit the fan. That was a job because of the way the body is formed where the rad. sits at the bottom. That fan was the only one I could get that was not too deep.

10-14-2023, 07:01 PM	#19
KULTULZ Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY Posts: 6,475	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: Am I seeing correctly? Is the upper and lower radiator hoses on the same side (end) of the radiator? __________________ *** - WHY IS IT ... - ... that everything you buy in the grocery store is either wrapped in or contained in plastic but the government doesn't want you to carry it out in a plastic bag? WONDERING IN W(BY GOD)V ... DIAGNOSED CDO** - (OCD In Correct Alphabetical Order)

10-14-2023, 10:33 PM	#20
miker98038 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Kent, WA. Tucson, AZ Posts: 1,398	Re: 55 Ford Wagon Timing Question: I’m not arguing with Vintage Air, but if that’s a 16” fan on a 16x20 or so core, you’re barely at 75%, probably under. Normally not a big deal, but at 105+ there’s not much room for error. I just went thru 3 weeks of 95-103, and I didn’t car how the car cooled. Short trip to the store and back, I’m done when it’s 90. But you’re real close, you’ll figure it out. Good eye Kultulz. I don’t know enough about radiators to know what the internal flow is. I’m just familiar with vertical and cross flow. Don’t remember if I ever had a vertical with the hoses on the same side.