Why coolant is good

[SeaSlugs]

Thought I would share pics of the steel impeller/aluminum body factory water pump off my 1995 s10 that has 226K miles on it when the seals started leaking. No rust or gunk! Truck has had orange dexcool, yellow universal stuff, and has green stuff in it now. So pick a color and use it! If its lasted this long for that many miles there is no reason to use water in a model A.

[updraught]

How often do you change it?

[SeaSlugs]

coolant? whenever something requires it to be drained...ive had to replace the radiator twice (stupid crimp between aluminum fins and plastic tanks always leaks) and for the water pump replacement. I did flush the system at 115K miles. so maybe 3 -4 times in that 226K miles...

[mike657894]

my car sat for 30 years with coolant in it. pulled the coolant looked like it was put in yesterday. I dont think straight water would have done as well.

[mike657894]

WOAH!!!! Chevy talk on the ford forum? heres mine

[DaWizard]

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Originally Posted by mike657894

WOAH!!!! Chevy talk on the ford forum? heres mine

There sure is a good looking Town Sedan in that photo album too!

[SeaSlugs]

i do love me a square body fullsize... must not be in the rust belt as yours still has cab corners, rear wheel wells, and rocker panels...

I did have to spend about 3 hours replacing the battery on my moms 2013 escape today outside in the driveway in 9*f temperature with a 0*F windchill... 3 years old and factory battery dead as a door nail - wont take a charge at all. new 7 year warranty one is $107...

[updraught]

Those fuel consumption issues must be because of the ethanol ...

I always seem to end up with a rusty overflow bottle even when changed every few years. The Subaru dealer says it only needs to be changed every seven years.

[mike657894]

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

i do love me a square body fullsize... must not be in the rust belt as yours still has cab corners, rear wheel wells, and rocker panels...

I did have to spend about 3 hours replacing the battery on my moms 2013 escape today outside in the driveway in 9*f temperature with a 0*F windchill... 3 years old and factory battery dead as a door nail - wont take a charge at all. new 7 year warranty one is $107...

In michigan. This is right after my tri-annual patch up. had to patch the 6 year old fenders and cab corners this time plus a wheel arch and a rear tail. The chineese steel doesnt last as long as the OE .

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m...212-105748.jpg

[mike657894]

Originally Posted by DaWizard

There sure is a good looking Town Sedan in that photo album too!

trying to make my grandpa proud with his choice to give me the car.

[SeaSlugs]

Originally Posted by updraught

Those fuel consumption issues must be because of the ethanol ...

I always seem to end up with a rusty overflow bottle even when changed every few years. The Subaru dealer says it only needs to be changed every seven years.

I wonder how you get rust... Do you buy the concentrate then make a 50/50 mix using distilled or drinking water? I just use the stuff that comes out of the garden hose, very soft water being only a few blocks from the town treatment plant so no heavy chemicals in it.

[updraught]

When I do it, it is 50/50 and a well known brand. The water is pretty good here.

I had a radiator replaced recently (plastic tanks were getting old) and asked the guy what they used for coolant. He said they don't, as "it's not like Poland here where it gets real cold". They just use some sort of inhibitor stuff.

This was a large national radiator chain. They send their staff to Fiji for a radiator conference each year apparently to learn about ... radiators.

[pooch]

Originally Posted by updraught

When I do it, it is 50/50 and a well known brand. The water is pretty good here.

I had a radiator replaced recently (plastic tanks were getting old) and asked the guy what they used for coolant. He said they don't, as "it's not like Poland here where it gets real cold". They just use some sort of inhibitor stuff.

This was a large national radiator chain. They send their staff to Fiji for a radiator conference each year apparently to learn about ... radiators.

OZ here too, so no need for coolant in general except for real cold bergs.

But, a need for it for electrolysis reasons.

[brokenspoke]

I'm pretty sure at the volume the coolant flows it pretty much keeps it super clean. The coolant does help

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

To me, it seems that Antifreeze that's run TOO LONG, seems to reverse its' corrosion inhibiting properties!
I've seen water pump impeller blades that were just little NUBS!
We would open a WHOLE new can of WORMS, if we discussed ELECTROLISIS !
Bill Stubby

[phonconn]

Seems the old green stuff was not meant to be run in a non pressurized cooling system. At the 88 Marc meet in St Louis we saw a lot of gumming up due to 104 degree days. Radiator tubes got clogged up and then couldn't take the 50+ gallons of water/coolant that was meant to run through the radiator per minute. I was told the new yellow stuff didn't have these issues and didn't gum up like the old green stuff but haven't tried it in mine.
They say "Spring Water" is the best as it is pure water and doesn't ever freeze. Not sure as I haven't tried it but it makes sense.
Dan Bixby
Come see us in Branson Summer of '18

[tbirdtbird]

"it is pure water and doesn't ever freeze"

are you sure?

the onslaught of myths continues; the laws of chemistry and physics will not be denied. Try it and get back to us

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by SeaSlugs

I did have to spend about 3 hours replacing the battery on my moms 2013 escape today outside in the driveway in 9*f temperature with a 0*F windchill... 3 years old and factory battery dead as a door nail - wont take a charge at all. new 7 year warranty one is $107...

Just did this on son-in-law's older Escape, with a two year old battery! Won't take a charge either. The original Motorcraft battery was 7 years old. Battery that went bad was a 'Neverlast' from Wal-Mart. Walmart did replace it as he's trading it off next year anyway so no need for a 'good' battery.

[SeaSlugs]

I think its all the power junk like auto opening and closing rear hatch, unlocks and locks all doors with the pull of the drivers handle, has to sit and constantly monitor if the fob is in range or not, turns on the center screen between the speedometer and tach anytime a door is opened and of course every time any of the above happens the parking lights flash/stay on for minutes at a time (not LED either...). Batteries dont like to be charged discharged charged discharged over and over again.

I think the pure water myth is true UNTIL you give it a big enough jolt. Look up super cooled water on youtube - pours as a liquid but instantly freezes when it hits the ground or if someone flicks the bottle you can watch the entire bottle freeze. So kinda right but obviously in a car a door slamming may start the chain reaction of freezing.

Ever open a cold enough beer that was liquid when you took it out of the fridge only to have it freeze when bringing it to your mouth?

[updraught]

Here is some reading from a bit of Googling on coolant/corrosion/copper/brass .

A bit of a basic coolant explanation:
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...t-fundamentals


" ... Can you run organic coolant in an earlier vehicle? Yes and no. OAT will work if your radiator is aluminum and you flush your entire cooling system with water and then refill with a 50/450 or 60/40 mixture of OAT, but there are some issues with the interaction between organic coolants and lead solder, so using OAT in a copper radiator is not recommended. In short, antifreeze these days can be buyer beware."
https://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/...of-antifreeze/

[mike657894]

the super cooled water trick is a time window thing(the kid was doing it). 2.5 hours in the freezer but 3 hours and its a block.

[3.6rs]

Good or not good, that's the question.
I don't know what was in the system as coolant (it was good for -20°C), but this is how my water pump looked like.

[tbirdtbird]

Antifreeze ("coolant") offers both
1. freeze protection
2. corrosion protection

these are two separate functions, and are not related.
You may have been good to -20°C, but the corrosion protection had been used up.

The glycols in antifreeze are very stable and do not oxidize with time, but the corrosion inhibitors do oxidize (get used up) and lose their effectiveness.

Measure the pH of your antifreeze. New in the jug it will be 8, which is slightly alkaline, which is your protection. You can prove this to yourself by measuring it. Once in the car and used, if 7 or below, the corrosion inhibitors are gone and you WILL get corrosion. If this is the case, change out the AF or even more simply, add a small can of Prestone corrosion inhibitor which can be bought separately at NAPA, etc.

This information came from the Prestone rep many many years ago when I taught mechanics at a voc-tech school

I check the pH of all my cars once a year

[ursus]

QUOTE:
Antifreeze ("coolant") offers both
1. freeze protection
2. corrosion protection

It also raises the boiling point of the mixture and could as well be termed "antiboil".

[robgross1930]

There's no glycol-based antifreeze, or any liquid cooling agent for that matter, that can dissipate or transfer heat as well as plain old water. Adding soluble oil will take care of rust and corrosion. For freeze protection, you know what to do.

[daveymc29]

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How much soluble oils is used in the Model A system? Tap water or distilled with the soluble oil?
Thanks,
Dave, in Sunny California where it never freezes. (Inside my attached Garage)

[updraught]

We've got two companies here that make an inhibitor for older cars, this is one:
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/product...id_products=92
It says it can also be added to coolant.

[robgross1930]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

How much soluble oils is used in the Model A system? Tap water or distilled with the soluble oil?
Thanks,
Dave, in Sunny California where it never freezes. (Inside my attached Garage)

Texaco Soluble D is a good one to use and it is mixed 40 to 1 for use in automotive cooling. Distilled water is a good choice. Tap water will work too but much of your ground water is not only saturated with calcium
carbonate, but silica too. Any water you put in your radiator
will quickly become saturated with whatever metals are present in
your engine, i.e., iron, copper, aluminum, etc. Once the minute amount
needed for this is dissolved, no more will dissolve until more water
is added. In the meantime if you are losing any water vapor,
whatever solids in the original water will be deposited somewhere in
your cooling system. This leads to scale. So the lower solids
content the water in your add, the better, like distilled for example. Then again some people claim they drive their A's nearly forever and rarely lose a drop of water, so tap water would be ok for them it seems.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by robgross1930

There's no glycol-based antifreeze, or any liquid cooling agent for that matter, that can dissipate or transfer heat as well as plain old water. Adding soluble oil will take care of rust and corrosion. For freeze protection, you know what to do.

But, what is the percent difference in cooling ability?

When a Model A overheats, it's almost always due to the radiator being plugged with rust and chemicals from the water, or due to wrong engine timing.

[updraught]

One point of view.


"There is little doubt that engines cooled by glycol run hotter than those using just water do. This sounds strange, but is due to certain basic physical characteristics of water when compared to glycol, the main ones being specific heat capacity (amount of heat the liquid will absorb), thermal conductivity (the ability of the liquid to distribute heat throughout itself) and heat transfer or thermal convection coefficient (the ability of heat to transfer from the hot engine to the coolant). It has been reported by some vintage car drivers that the differences between glycol and water in terms of cooling can be as much as 16°C (30°F.)
If you study the wording on a pack of ethylene glycol mixture it will state the appropriate boiling rates at certain temperatures. For example a 50/50 mixture boils at 129°C (265°F). Assuming you are using a 15lb pressure cap and has a thermostat to control temperatures. Plain water on the other hand with a 15lb pressure cap boils at 121°C (250°F).
Not many veteran and vintage cars have pressurised systems nor do they possess thermostats to regulate temperatures. This being the case, without a pressurised cap water boils at 100°C (212°F) whilst a 50/50 ethylene glycol mixture boils at (106°C) (223°F)."
http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pd...0BE%20COOL.pdf

[robgross1930]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

But, what is the percent difference in cooling ability?

When a Model A overheats, it's almost always due to the radiator being plugged with rust and chemicals from the water, or due to wrong engine timing.

Pure water has the highest possible heat capacity. The heat capacity of ethylene glycol is about 65% of water at the temps seen in the system. That means that to cool the engine by one degree one would need about 50% more of it than straight water. So even though one could use pure antifreeze as a coolant, one would need a bigger radiator and a more robust cooling system compared to one that used straight water.

[tbirdtbird]

" So even though one could use pure antifreeze as a coolant, one would need a bigger radiator and a more robust cooling system compared to one that used straight water."

hard to know where any of this is really going. A lot here unrelated to seaslugs post #1. I am all but certain no one has suggested using 100% glycol.

There is no location info given here so perhaps robgross is from europe where they may do things differently; but the customary mix here in the USA is 50-50, and that is not likely to change soon with much of the country going below freezing in the winter. It is common knowledge that 100% water has more cooling capacity than 50-50 but many people do not have that choice. Tom W has summed it all up nicely in #29

the thread is becoming very irrelevant and drifting far afield

[updraught]

Coolant in modern cars (with aluminium radiators, long life coolant, pressure caps, plastic tanks and electric fans) is standard wherever you are. Hot or cold.

However, this being an old ford forum, things are a bit different.

[Y-Blockhead]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

"
I am all but certain no one has suggested using 100% glycol.

According to this chart it doesn't appear it would be a good idea to go above ~70%. Notice this is at Sea level so not a pressurize system.
I run 33% (lower end of recommended concentration), 1 gallon Peak Green (for cars before 1989) to 2 gallons distilled water. Good for 0°F, doesn't freeze too often in SoCal tho...

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

The thread is becoming very irrelevant and drifting far afield

Boy has it!!

[robgross1930]

Originally Posted by tbirdtbird

" So even though one could use pure antifreeze as a coolant, one would need a bigger radiator and a more robust cooling system compared to one that used straight water."

hard to know where any of this is really going. A lot here unrelated to seaslugs post #1. I am all but certain no one has suggested using 100% glycol.

There is no location info given here so perhaps robgross is from europe where they may do things differently; but the customary mix here in the USA is 50-50, and that is not likely to change soon with much of the country going below freezing in the winter. It is common knowledge that 100% water has more cooling capacity than 50-50 but many people do not have that choice. Tom W has summed it all up nicely in #29

the thread is becoming very irrelevant and drifting far afield

I beg to differ. Sea Slugs said, " .... there is no reason to use water in a model A." My contention is there is plenty of reason to use straight water in a Model A (with soluble oil added of course) and I was answering a question asked by daveymc29 as freezing is not an issue in his location and then answered a question asked by Tom W. My comment concerning the use of 100% pure antifreeze was merely part of my explanation.

[Kurt in NJ]

Here is the inside of a flathead block that always had antifreeze in it

[Kurt in NJ]

Water, you can see the pitting around the opening, and on the outside of the cylinder

the difference in cooling ability between water and AF is not a factor in my car, I need a thermostat to keep the engine warm enough to be efficient