New member, first Ford project

[m610]

^ Thanks. I hope rust isn't too bad an issue.


Work has slowed. The owner has left for a 5 month trip to Asia. I'm working on a friend's Opel GT this week and hope to have it done by the weekend. After that work on the Ford will resume. The owner wants to be involved in all of the work but has given me the okay to deal with the brakes, suspension, and rewire.


Mike

[m610]

A little break in the action as I get the Opel sorted and back on the road.





Mike

[m610]

Richard, the car's owner, will be back in the country soon and work on the Ford will resume shortly after. (The Opel GT is done and the Opel 1900 almost.)


The radiator needed rebuilding but our radiator shop guy, Juan, recommended replacing it, rather than re-coring it. Juan also took a look at the gas tank, which was nearly full of late-1950s gasoline-turned-jelly, and recommended the same. He could rebuild both, but the cost would be more than Richard would probably want to pay.


Richard found a new replacement tank with all the accessories so we will probably go with that.


I'm looking forward to working on the Ford again.


Mike

[m610]

I'm back at work on the Ford. The Opel GT is done and the Opel Ascona is getting its final touches.

I replaced the gas tank. It was not as easy as you'd expect. The bolt holes did not line up. Maybe the car is a little bent or there was a problem with the tank. After three tires and drilling out the mounting holes to enlarge them it went in.



I rehung the new wiring between the rear of the car and the engine bay. I think I'll remove, clean, and inspect the brake hardware and switch before I make that connection. I am also inclined to put the wiring in plastic wire mold. I hate the idea of the wiring being clamped to the chassis in places and free to more around, get wet, etc, along it's length.

Richard and I cleaned up the differential. Besides the rust there was a lot of brushed-on tar, like what we saw in front. I figure this was 1930's undercoating. Anyway, I finished it up with a wire brush and a little paint.




The rear brakes were disconnected. I figure that means there had been a problem with them, so I have to get a look inside, which I would have done anyway. Problem is, I can't get the drums off. I see in the manuals that a castle nut pressed the drum onto a cone, and a snap ring in the drum sets how far onto the cone it can go. Anyway, as far as I can tell a little heat and a wheel puller should be enough to get the drums off, but that is not working. During heating some oil or grease does bubble out, so I know the drum is not on hard and fast. Does anyone have a suggestion on how to get this thing off?





By the way, most of the castle nuts in the rear were missing their cotter pins, including the big nuts that held the drums in place. I guess that is an good indicator of where work on the car has been done.


Tomorrow I plan to work on the brake pedal and switch. Is there anything I should be on the lookout for? Also, hopefully I'll be able to get the rear drums off and see what is inside.

Mike

[ssffnomad]

http://www.vintageprecision.com/prod...ers/index.html

This type proper tool was designed to use torque to remove Hub / Drum.
Really tight , then a couple mild taps on stem of tool.
It does not need to be “ Beat On “

When I do my taps on stem of tool .
I hold a piece of Hardwood on stem of Tool , then hit.

[cas3]

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Gosh you are good at pictures and laying it out. M610 I assume is a melroe 610 bobcat,my first machine. They were good, and still command a decent price

[Terry,OH]

Car appears to be later model year due to the flat top coil, wood grained dash. You can find the date the window glass mas manufactured on the window glass bug under the Ford script look in the lower corner of the glass for the bug. If there is no glass bug then the glass was replaced. The original glass has a black edge all the way around. Sanders glass can reproduce the same style of glass with the date code bug. The flat top coil can be rebuilt by Skip Haney in Fla. he can also rebuild and tune the distributor and supply a good condenser. Look on the brake pedal if there is the number 17 embossed in the casting then the brake wedges should also have the No. 17. Your rear brake drums use the smaller rear wheel bearing. Look for the letters LB to be stamped on the engine block next to the intake manifold. Third Gen Auto can supply the correct color, appearance and gauge wires for the generator as well as the rubber washer they pass through to go to the cutout. They are red and black cloth covered wires #12 AWG with high wire strand count for flexibility. The original wire terminals can be reused since they are unique also.

Very nice project.

[m610]

Thanks all for the comments.

I had seen that wheel puller in the only manual and it definitely looks like it can handle more torque, from my wrench, than the puller I am using. It looks like I'll have to get one, but it's pretty pricey, especially for a tool I'm unlikely to ever use again.

M610 comes from M from my name and 610 which was the number on my car when I first started driving at race tracks, in my street car. Racing came much later.

From what I have seen in the manuals and catalogs this is a later model, with the smaller wheel bearing, as noted here. One thing not of the photos in my sources show is the snap ring in the end of the snout of the drum. It appears to be there to prevent the drum from going too far onto the cone-shaped spindle.

I'll check for the date codes. Thanks for the tip.

Mike

[rockfla]

Originally Posted by m610

Thanks all for the comments.

I had seen that wheel puller in the only manual and it definitely looks like it can handle more torque, from my wrench, than the puller I am using. It looks like I'll have to get one, but it's pretty pricey, especially for a tool I'm unlikely to ever use again.

M610 comes from M from my name and 610 which was the number on my car when I first started driving at race tracks, in my street car. Racing came much later.

From what I have seen in the manuals and catalogs this is a later model, with the smaller wheel bearing, as noted here. One thing not of the photos in my sources show is the snap ring in the end of the snout of the drum. It appears to be there to prevent the drum from going too far onto the cone-shaped spindle.

I'll check for the date codes. Thanks for the tip.

Mike

Try having to replace the axle, or drums, or both when you break or strip the threads. The vintage precision tool pays for itself the first time you use it!!! Its the best V8 specific tool I have ever bought!!!!! I think you will find the same once you get it!!!!! PLUS look at the time already you have invested and its still not off!!!!

[m610]

Thanks Rockfla. I think I can get the car's owner to buy it. There's a chance he might need it in the future. Seeing as I work mostly on Opels, I doubt I will be needing it.

Today was slow, but long, and productive, but not massively so. This kind of work takes a lot of extra effort and care. It would be one thing if this was a running car in good shape, but it is a car that has not run since the 50s.

I peeled back to rubber covering in the rear of the trunk to expose the fuel level sender and hooked up that wire. Finally, I actually put something on the car! In past project that marked a turning point, but not so for this one. There is still a lot of digging and scraping to do.



Seeing as I can't get access to the rear brakes I switched to the brake pedal, parking brake, and the rest of the linkage.

After removing several pounds of accumulated dirt, grit, and tar, I managed to get the parking brake lever out, inspect and clean it, and spray with primer. I ran out of black paint earlier in the day.

Getting out the brake lever mechanism was quite a chore, and I still don't have it out. A bolt holding the rod that bolts to the back of the engine is in the way, and to get it our I need a square tool, like a hex wrench, but square. I may have to make one.

BTW, the owner thinks I should be painting everything flat black. I've been using semi-gloss black and so far those parts are not easily seen by people, and he is okay with that. I want to finish painting the engine bay so I can install the rest of the wiring and I prefer semi-gloss. Which should it be?

Mike

[Flathead Fever]

It worries me a little when people that do not know old Fords decide to build a car. There is a learning curve with these old Fords. It's no big deal, but there are things that are constructed differently than most people have seen on other vehicles. That said, they are the perfect cars to learn how to work on, vehicles don't come any simpler than an old Ford, that was Mr. Ford's concept. That doesn't mean some of the stuff on them isn't a pain in the butt. It takes a lot of patience to work on old cars, Sometimes, just getting stuff a part that has been bolted together for 80-100 years is the worst part of it. And when it's all done it's not going to drive and stop like a new car and if you update it than its not old car anymore. Some people can't live with the brakes, hard steering and rough ride. Personally, I would rather experience an old car as it actually was. You should have somebody local take you for a ride in their old Ford and see what you think about how it drives. Moist people jump into these projects and have never even ridden in an old Ford or drove a Flathead V8. You really should know what it's like.

Do not let somebody tell you, " I wanted a car I could drive, that's why I put a Chevy in my Early Ford" or they installed independent front suspension... I guarantee you that when these cars were new people drove them all over the place, just like people do today with their modern cars. They went cross country, they went everywhere in them. These Ford flathead V8s were dependable, otherwise they would not have made them from 1932-1953. If they are having problems with them today it's not the vintage design, it's because they need to be brought back to new condition and then you can use them as your daily driver.

You want to be careful with all the original bolts, they are special on old Fords. They have thick heads and no grade markings on the tops. Ford restorers look for that stuff and so do the people building period correct hot rods. Nothing is worse than seeing modern grade 5 shiny bolts on an old Ford. As you unbolt parts put the bolts back in the threads, so they don't get lost or mixed up. Take pictures of everything before you disassemble it so you will remember things like from what side the bolts went in, so they are like they were when they left the factory, stuff like that.

Just tackle one system at a time, do not blow the car into a million pieces because then it becomes too overwhelming. Finish one section at a time like the brakes, then you will be motivated to move onto the next section. You need to be rewarded along the way on these projects by finishing small goals or you will burn out.

Buy everything you need to do one section from one vender. Shipping has gotten really expensive, and you if you can order it all from one vender in one box you can cutdown on your restoration costs. Do not order online, talk to them in person and make sure they have the parts in stock before you pay for anything. A lot of these places will keep your money and have you waiting-and-waiting for backordered parts. If they are missing a part, try ordering it all from a different vender to keep the shipping costs down. Do your research on which venders are dependable and which reproduction parts are the best quality. There are all kinds of issues with reproduction parts not fitting or being faulty, its big problem.

You will find you need some special tools to work on these old Fords like a rear brake drum puller. You need to decide if you are going to stay stock or a mild hot rod. You don't want to buy parts for an original car and then replace them when you change your mind and build a hot rod. You need to have a plan. The more original you can keep the car the more desirable it will be if you ever decide to sell it to a restorer. An untouched car with patina can be worth as much as a nice daily driver so you don't want to be too quick to change some of stuff and make one part of the car too nice. You want it looking like it just rolled out of a barn. If you build a hot rod, try to stay authentic to a certain time period, guys will appreciate the effort you made. Say you decide 1950 is the time frame you want; you do not use any modern speed equipment manufactured after 1950 on your hot rod. We can all tell a modern new casting reproduction flathead intake from an original 1950 one. You want real 1950 hot rod gauges. Old style wiring... It makes the build a little more challenging, but you are after authenticity.

You need to learn about flatheads becuase not all flatheads are created equal. That one has a 21 stud engine, correct for the year but you maybe you want a later 24 stud with more cubic inches.

[38 coupe]

Ford used "chassis black" on the chassis parts, which is semi-gloss.

[Brendan]

nice car , and it looks like a fun project

[m610]

Thanks on the color question. My partner in this was sure I should be using flat black.

And, Brenden, it is a really fun project, even with all the accumulated dirt and painted on tar. The small differences from more modern cars, well, semi-modern, are fun to see. Such as actual carriage bolts, and all bolts being fine thread, and castle nuts everywhere. No top-loc nuts at all.

And don't worry, we won't be taking liberties with this car that would horrify collectors. Our goal is to get it running reliably on all of the original gear, including the mechanical brakes, and preserving as much of the character of what was once Richard's great-grandfather's car as possible. Naturally, this creates problems making calls on what exactly to do. We can't leave everything as-is, dirty and rusty, and some some areas do need to be cleaned up in order to work on them. We've decided it won't violate the project's goals if we cleaned up the engine bay, for example, but other crusty parts will stay as they are.



I wanted to go ahead and paint the engine bay so I could start installing the wiring.

Today I spent cleaning and painting parts we've taken off the car. The pedals and e-brake handle are ready to go back in, but I'll hold off until I get the floor repaired.



I did replace the steel screws for the electrical connections with brass.

I'm wondering if replacements for these are available. If not, can they be repaired? I'd think welding cast iron could be a challenge.



I finally got around to painting the frame in the engine bay. We've decided we want to engine bay to look nice, seeing as a fresh motor is going in there.

Here's some patina we'd like to preserve.



Tomorrow I'll take on the inner fender.

[m610]

Work continues in the front section, until we can figure out if the recommended brake drum puller will work for our car. I really prefer to get the wheels and brakes, and suspension taken care of before moving on to other parts of the car.

It was dirty work but the inner fender liners cleaned up okay.




They look good installed. The installation is temporary. I have to get the sealing strips first.




With the engine area clean and painted I can start installing the wiring. I had no problem connecting the fancy plug to the steering column, but I'll need to get the pigtails to complete the connections to the lights and horn.





I'll be moving on to the interior next. I need Richard's (car owner) approval to remove the seat. He's rightfully concerned about the fabric and how it seems to be integral to the rear deck. I need to find a clean way to separate it. Richard want's to stay with the original interior fabrics. They will get patched but not replaced.

The driver-side floor is damaged and rotted out, and there's not much left of the battery tray. The catalog I have shows wooden floor panels. From what I see in the car at the moment is metal panels were installed over the wood panels. Is that correct?

While I am working inside I'll remove the heater and check it out. The radio will stay in for now, but if we can find a shop to work on it that would be great. In more modern electronics capacitors, mostly electrolytics and tantalums, go bad when not used. I figure neither of these were used in 1930s radios, but we will see.

The filler neck came out of its vinegar soak yesterday. It looks great after a little wire brushing. A lot of scale came out of the inside but that looks good, too. I still want to see if I can run a brush around in it.





It's been a fun project so far.

[Model51]

The answer to your question on floorboards is on pages 11 and 12 of the 1935-36 Ford book published by the Early Ford V8 Club. I think in a prior post you mentioned you purchased a copy. If not, it's an invaluable source of all kinds of correct information for your project.

[m610]

Model51, thanks for the tip. I just read it. Very helpful, but now I have to look more closely at the car and see how to proceed.

Sometimes this job seems about as sexy as washing dishes at a restaurant. I do a lot of cleaning, wire brushing, using taps and dies to clean up nuts and bolts, and so on. It's not boring, but I'd think anyone could do it. But would they? I'm taking a lot of pride in this project, even if it isn't a restoration. I'd love to see this car on the streets again.

Today's fun, other that what I just listed, was putting a part back on the car, which always makes the day feel special. In this case it was the rear/spare tire holder. Unfortunately I don't have a spare tire so I couldn't put the tire cover on, but I had a rim and that provided some satisfaction. See below.




The plan for tomorrow is to finish getting the rear bumper mounts finished and installed, then take a hard look at the floor on the driver's side. I also want to get the heater out and give it a good going over. That should be enough for one day.

Mike

P.S. It looks like we are going to need a rear bumper.

[m610]

I found interesting things in our parts stash. For example, the wheel looks like it has never been used.



The label seems to confirm this.



Also, this is interesting.



And I found our spare tire, so I just had to do this:



I still think I'm missing a part, but it looks great so far.

Other parts of the car I worked on do not look so great.

[m610]

I pulled the heater. It looks like it has been out before. The grommets are missing and anti-seize was used on the mounting threads, the firewall was also a little bent. But the heater core itself looks great and I see no signs of previous leaks. Still, I will test it before putting it back in the car.



I'm not sure if the fan motor works. The external wiring is shot and I don't have a 6-volt battery or power supply. If it doesn't work there are probably shops in Sacramento that can rebuild it.

[m610]

The floor and battery tray will be some work. I cut out the rotted floor and cleaned the area. I think we can get by with splicing in a replacement. Otherwise it looks like we would have to lift the body off the frame.



Here's were the battery tray used to be.



And this is what was being used as a battery tray.



Somehow that does not look OEM to me.

Mike