Lloyd Young Car Auction Today

[ericr]

I went to this today in Central Ohio. The restored Model "A"s I saw sold were a '29 roadster for about 25K, a closed cab pickup truck for about 18, and a '29 Tudor for about 12.


Every time I go to an auction I swear it will be the last. Lloyd was experienced and honorable but I would prefer to drive a car and ask questions before buying.


Also there seems to be a phenomenon where guys are there bidding for somebody on their cell phone. Nothing illegal immoral or fattening about it, maybe not a new practice, just leaves me with a suspicion that a trillionaire somewhere is dominating the market and driving up prices for the rest of us. That's life I guess.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Maybe the phone is the new method of a shill bid.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I have been on the phone many times with customers who were at Barrret and other auctions where they as a bidder are asking last minute questions and my opinion. Nothing shill about it. I also would expect some bidders have called a friend and told them about an A that was up for auction, and the person on the other end of the phone told the auction attendee to bid for them.

[[email protected]]

Did the pile of Borg Warner Overdrives sell... ? A new source of B/W ODs for the Model A hobby in the future?

[ronn]

Maybe the phone is the new method of a shill bid.



absolutely!

[Duckfarmer27]

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I'm not a big poster on here but this time I have to speak up - and I agree with Brent.

I've been on both sides of the block selling things - I'm not an auctioneer but was an owner in a business that heavily used auctioneers. There are disreputable auctioneers out there who will use a shill - or those who will bump you without a shill. You had better have your wits about you and be observant, no matter what you are buying at an auction - or anywhere from anyone for that matter. But I know many auctioneers who I trust implicitly - I'll leave a bid on something with them if I can't be at the auction and not worry one bit about it. But that trust goes both ways because I stand behind my bid. Over the years I've seen all kinds of weaseling going on from someone who had 'buyers remorse' after the fact.

A week ago I was on the phone at an auction - not during the bidding - doing exactly what Brent said. There were numerous cars there and I was comparing notes with my brother to determine how much I was willing to bid on one particular vehicle. Ended up I never raised my hand as other people wanted it a whole lot more than I did! And I have at times in the past during the bidding been on the phone during the actual bidding.

Personally, I enjoy an auction. But then I know many people who are nervous about it - I think because it puts them out of their comfort zone. The risk you take on 'being taken' is versus the chance to 'get a deal'.

All that said I have never seen a buyer get a 'deal' cheap enough nor a seller get what the article is 'really worth' at auction. That is just human nature.

And lets face it - a person with the best of intentions can end up misrepresenting a 90 year old vehicle unintentionally. You can test drive, dicker, have 'your mechanic' look over an old car - and it can blow up loading it on the trailer. Most of us don't have perfect x-ray vision.

My 2 cents on the subject.

Dale

[ericr]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

Did the pile of Borg Warner Overdrives sell... ? A new source of B/W ODs for the Model A hobby in the future?

all the parts were sold the day before I got there, though not all removed. Lloyd was a huge collector and the yards were full of piles of things, including what I assume were overdrives.

[holdover]

really need to do your homework at an auction. Most auctions where I live have a preview day if there is equipment or vehicles for sale, it is your one chance to check something out before you bid. Unless you know the owner of the vehicle and are sure about the restoration etc, it is best to get other opinions about value before laying out large sums of money. lately it has been my experience that some people will pay a lot more money than I feel things are worth or selling for. I have seen tools sell for more money used and abused than the same name brand item can be bought new. I go for the entertainment...

[ericr]

Originally Posted by holdover

really need to do your homework at an auction. Most auctions where I live have a preview day if there is equipment or vehicles for sale, it is your one chance to check something out before you bid. Unless you know the owner of the vehicle and are sure about the restoration etc, it is best to get other opinions about value before laying out large sums of money. lately it has been my experience that some people will pay a lot more money than I feel things are worth or selling for. I have seen tools sell for more money used and abused than the same name brand item can be bought new. I go for the entertainment...

oh auctions do attract sidewalk superintendents that are not even registered to bid. better than going to a bar, I guess.


I was there to try to buy back a car I had sold to Lloyd but I would have needed the German Army to get me close to the auctioneer. Auctioneers should ask non-bidders to clear a path.

[Ted Duke]

An item is worth what a buyer is willing to pay. A deal is when the seller and the buyer is happy. Auctions may or may not satisfy both the seller and buyer, BUT, the item has a new home. Enjoy!

[Duckfarmer27]

Originally Posted by ericr

I was there to try to buy back a car I had sold to Lloyd but I would have needed the German Army to get me close to the auctioneer. Auctioneers should ask non-bidders to clear a path.

You need to make sure you can 'yip' - give a yell to get the auctioneer's attention, especially if he is not using any ring men. All you have to do is get noticed once - unless the auctioneer is totally incompetent he will keep you in the running on the bids. You can't be bashful. And as far as asking people to move out - you never know who is going to stick up their hand. Don't want to insult potential bidders.

On the other hand are those on the ego trips who like to wave both arms continuously so as to be noticed while running up a bid. Related to the buyers being 'stroked' by ring men/women on the televised auctions. Those are the ones I like to chuckle at. But I guess the minute of televised fame is worth the price, at least to them. And it increases the sale price, to the benefit of the auctioneer/company/seller so I can't blame them one bit.
Reminds me of the scene in the movie Pretty Woman when getting the sales gals to 'suck up'.

Dale

[Gene F]

I was there too. Give me a day or two to cool down, before I comment. ERICR, what car were you interested in?

[ericr]

Originally Posted by Gene F

I was there too. Give me a day or two to cool down, before I comment. ERICR, what car were you interested in?

I had sold Lloyd a 1920s oddball assembled car named an Elcar, made in Elkhart Indiana. I was the second owner and I had dissembled it and restored various components but never had the time-funds-to completely restore it.

[ronn]

"On the other hand are those on the ego trips who like to wave both arms continuously so as to be noticed while running up a bid. "



sometimes this maneuver works in chasing all of the bidders away.


worked for me once and bought a pair of beautiful violins for squat.............

[Duckfarmer27]

Originally Posted by ronn

"On the other hand are those on the ego trips who like to wave both arms continuously so as to be noticed while running up a bid. "



sometimes this maneuver works in chasing all of the bidders away.


worked for me once and bought a pair of beautiful violins for squat.............

Yep - can be a real fun mind game at times. Extra fun when the 'other bidder(s) are screaming in your face accusing you of being a government agent - that happened to me once. Made for an amusing day. More than once I've got in the bidding to either snag a deal or make them pay what the item is worth.

[Jeff/Illinois]

I lean towards the 'shill bid' philosophy too. I've been around too many crooked auctioneers and have seen too many 'deals' flying around. Too many shady things going on. Pulling bids out of thin air from bidders in the very back of the crowd that don't exist. All kinds of crap.

Trust no one.

Or at a Model A cars and parts auction I was at two years ago, where the auctioneer would call out a bid for one dollar and then immediately close the bidding 'Well, Mike buys another one today....' Mike was buying NOS radiators and excellent blocks, fenders, rims, you name it. Several of us had our hands in the air, and were complaining loudly. But the auctioneer didn't 'see' us even though we were right in front of him. He stopped the sale and said 'if you want to bid boys, get your hands in the air so we can see you. '

I walked away and will never go to another one of his sales.

So in answer to the first post, 'YES" all kinds of crooked crap happens at auctions. You have to be aware of what is going on around you. Phone bidders don't ride well with me at all.

Oh yes one other thing. Just look at all the junk cars trading hands on E-Bay and even the major auction houses and classic car consignment shops. Many are mis-represented. People are buying them sight unseen, the sellers are stating that they are 'mint' and such when many are pure junk. Barn Find don't you love that one, it was probably a problem car is why it got shoved in a barn in the first place. Anyway, the buyer finds out too late when they drop this junk off at his/her house.

Today's world. No shortage of liars and con men out there.

[Tom Wesenberg]

What Jeff just explained is exactly what happened to me a few times. I only knew one auctioneer back in the 70's and 80's that was a great guy and could be trusted to run an honest auction. I'm sure Paul Wagner has passed by now though.

[Wick]

The future of auctions is online now during the week. You can inspect the items a few days before.
I attend maybe 2 live auctions a year now.

[ronn]

Trust no one.





a lesson everyone needs to learn early on...............!

[divcoone]

The auctioneer is working for the seller, not the buyer.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by divcoone

The auctioneer is working for the seller, not the buyer.

Divcoone your right most of the time, BUT there are times the auctioneer is working for his 'buddy' in the crowd (often a guy buying stuff for the auctioneer himself or just a close friend or relative of the auctioneer). I've seen it on numerous occasions.

[Gene F]

I went to the bank and got things squared away, with a block of more than enough money on my checking acct, and got the letter I needed....

I wanted the 27 REO Flying Cloud 5-person sedan. It was Lloyd's touring car, and he had repainted it from "Old Blue" to a two-tone tan in recent years. He freshened up the car overall. I thought perhaps if I could get that car it would be worthy of an entry in The Great Race 2020. 2019 is already sold out. I stopped at $25,000 which was a little more than double the "book" value. I did a lot of value research in addition to value guides. The old guy kept bidding, and he just looked like he wasn't even going to so much as flinch until he said $30,000, which would have left me at $31,000 and that was way more than I wanted to pay. I never try to run up the bid on someone, I think it's dirty, and you never know when your opponent will stop and leave you stranded. I really wanted that car, but I felt like $25,000 with the 8% fee on top of that was a plenty. I told my wife a week before I wanted the car, but I didn't wanna pay more than about $20,000, or $25,000.

I wonder what that old guy thinks he is going to do with it. I mean I look at my collector cars as me just being the caretaker of them. I retired WAY EARLY, but collector cars will live beyond me, and I can still get around quite good. I hate to say it, but that guy is plainly in his late 70s, and can hardly walk. How in the heck is he even going to change the oil, and perform the annual lubrication on that car? The first time the car has a flat tire, the carburetor needs cleaned out, or some other minor maintenance repair the car will simply sit and deteriorate. The only two shops that perhaps work on something of that vintage are not even around here: Hills Restorations in Racine, OH, and perhaps the Studebaker specialty shop over in Duncan Falls, OH.
It sound like sour-grapes, but it's really not. Sure I would have liked to have it though, but I have enough collector cars to keep me plenty busy (both
driving and repairs).

Lets face it, the car is likely in as good a shape right now as it ever will be. I expect never to see it again. Someone said to me, you never know Gene, maybe he will die, and you can buy it from his estate cheaper. Sounds unfriendly to me, but perhaps there is some truth to it. It's more likely that (I kinda hate to even go down this road) by the time the car ever would become available again, it will have deteriorated again to where I would not even wanna fool with it. Lets face it, it's not like my Model-A where parts and resources are plentiful.

Actually, I think the auctioneering team did a nice job. Sometimes I go to auctions (including with my stuff up for sale) and feel like the auction team just don't know what to do. I was at one 12 months ago in Marietta, and it was terrible. The Aires' really
took a beating, and they likely didn't even know it.

Things they did before auction at Lloyd's:
Starting every car before the festivities
leaving the cars unlocked
starting them before each car was offered, went a long way.

I could go on, but your get the idea. You can tell when pre-planning is done.


So bottom line, I hope the old guy enjoys the 27 Flying Cloud. Sure he paid for it fair-and-square, but he also has a little bit of responsibility to the car, and the hobby we all love so much.

[P.S.]

Mecum seems to have struck the right balance as far as collector car auctions go. Even if we don't buy anything, we always have fun just because of the spectacle of it all!

[gz]

Part of what drives auction prices high is the owner.
Lloyd Young was a very well known, very well respected and very well liked collector. He was truly a car guy's car collector. Him and Shirley were regular attendees at virtually every Glidden Tour, Reliability Tour, etc etc. When someone on the tour broke down, Lloyd was always the first person on the scene and HE KNEW how to fix cars. Not the typical guy that stands around a spews BS and misinformation. Lloyd knew cars and was glad to help fix them-especially if it meant that someone would complete the tour.
As a rebuilder and installer of his famous overdrives, he would go out of his way to make sure the job was done right and often fixed other non-related issues he encountered without charging the person-just so they would not have problems on the road.
He was a knowledgable and gracious gentleman in all regards.
I knew several people that went to this auction and wanted to own a particular car or cars just because they were Lloyds. To a certain extent, they wanted something from Lloyd more than they wanted a particular car. Had someone less known and less respected owned this collection, I am sure the prices would have been lower. Hopefully we will see these cars continue their touring traditions.

[ericr]

Originally Posted by Gene F

I went to the bank and got things squared away, with a block of more than enough money on my checking acct, and got the letter I needed....

I wanted the 27 REO Flying Cloud 5-person sedan. It was Lloyd's touring car, and he had repainted it from "Old Blue" to a two-tone tan in recent years. He freshened up the car overall. I thought perhaps if I could get that car it would be worthy of an entry in The Great Race 2020. 2019 is already sold out. I stopped at $25,000 which was a little more than double the "book" value. I did a lot of value research in addition to value guides. The old guy kept bidding, and he just looked like he wasn't even going to so much as flinch until he said $30,000, which would have left me at $31,000 and that was way more than I wanted to pay. I never try to run up the bid on someone, I think it's dirty, and you never know when your opponent will stop and leave you stranded. I really wanted that car, but I felt like $25,000 with the 8% fee on top of that was a plenty. I told my wife a week before I wanted the car, but I didn't wanna pay more than about $20,000, or $25,000.

I wonder what that old guy thinks he is going to do with it. I mean I look at my collector cars as me just being the caretaker of them. I retired WAY EARLY, but collector cars will live beyond me, and I can still get around quite good. I hate to say it, but that guy is plainly in his late 70s, and can hardly walk. How in the heck is he even going to change the oil, and perform the annual lubrication on that car? The first time the car has a flat tire, the carburetor needs cleaned out, or some other minor maintenance repair the car will simply sit and deteriorate. The only two shops that perhaps work on something of that vintage are not even around here: Hills Restorations in Racine, OH, and perhaps the Studebaker specialty shop over in Duncan Falls, OH.
It sound like sour-grapes, but it's really not. Sure I would have liked to have it though, but I have enough collector cars to keep me plenty busy (both
driving and repairs).

Lets face it, the car is likely in as good a shape right now as it ever will be. I expect never to see it again. Someone said to me, you never know Gene, maybe he will die, and you can buy it from his estate cheaper. Sounds unfriendly to me, but perhaps there is some truth to it. It's more likely that (I kinda hate to even go down this road) by the time the car ever would become available again, it will have deteriorated again to where I would not even wanna fool with it. Lets face it, it's not like my Model-A where parts and resources are plentiful.

Actually, I think the auctioneering team did a nice job. Sometimes I go to auctions (including with my stuff up for sale) and feel like the auction team just don't know what to do. I was at one 12 months ago in Marietta, and it was terrible. The Aires' really
took a beating, and they likely didn't even know it.

Things they did before auction at Lloyd's:
Starting every car before the festivities
leaving the cars unlocked
starting them before each car was offered, went a long way.

I could go on, but your get the idea. You can tell when pre-planning is done.


So bottom line, I hope the old guy enjoys the 27 Flying Cloud. Sure he paid for it fair-and-square, but he also has a little bit of responsibility to the car, and the hobby we all love so much.

one thing the auctioneer did that I appreciated was that he did not do that chanting, confusing singsong that most of them do....kinda like that old ad for American Tobacco. I've been to other auctions where there are assistants watching the bidders and they let out some kind of annoying squeal.

[Jeff/Illinois]

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Originally Posted by ericr

one thing the auctioneer did that I appreciated was that he did not do that chanting, confusing singsong that most of them do....kinda like that old ad for American Tobacco. I've been to other auctions where there are assistants watching the bidders and they let out some kind of annoying squeal.

That's funny an 'annoying squeal'!!

The English have it down right, they call out for bids in a mannerable, polite kind of way. Easy to understand. The American Tobacco method is taught to our auctioneers to create excitement and move the bidder to the next level, to get your heart pumping, so I'm told. At American Auctioneer's school they teach you to develop your own style of chanting and all of that. It becomes your trademark. 'Habbba da habbba da habbada yow yow yow whadda I'm bid yow yow you're out' sometimes it's hard to understand and you are bidding against yourself, an honest auctioneer will point that out to you.

I'd think if we had more English auctioneers things would be go more smoothly At least on large items like cars.

[Gene F]

GZ, your are right.

[Gene F]

Lloyd was a terrific guy for sure!

[Gene F]

I still sometimes think about Lloyd's REO. Especially when I drive by his former home in a collector car.

[ronn]

In that case, you should have went up to the old fella who bought it and given him your name and #, letting him know you wtd it when he decided to sell.


one never knows.

[History]

We call them fiddles round these parts.

Originally Posted by ronn

"On the other hand are those on the ego trips who like to wave both arms continuously so as to be noticed while running up a bid. "



sometimes this maneuver works in chasing all of the bidders away.


worked for me once and bought a pair of beautiful violins for squat.............

[History]

I figured as much on the verbal training but what's up with having the title as "Colonel"?

I grew up with a guy who's first name is Richard and that's all I've ever heard him called. Thirty five years later he "demands"to be called Rich. Similar to colonel to me.

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

That's funny an 'annoying squeal'!!

The English have it down right, they call out for bids in a mannerable, polite kind of way. Easy to understand. The American Tobacco method is taught to our auctioneers to create excitement and move the bidder to the next level, to get your heart pumping, so I'm told. At American Auctioneer's school they teach you to develop your own style of chanting and all of that. It becomes your trademark. 'Habbba da habbba da habbada yow yow yow whadda I'm bid yow yow you're out' sometimes it's hard to understand and you are bidding against yourself, an honest auctioneer will point that out to you.

I'd think if we had more English auctioneers things would be go more smoothly At least on large items like cars.

[ronn]

We call them fiddles round these parts.




Im a guessin you's also drinking zinfindel...................


better known as 7-up in my neck of the woods

[Gene F]

Originally Posted by ronn

In that case, you should have went up to the old fella who bought it and given him your name and #, letting him know you wtd it when he decided to sell.


one never knows.

Yes, but heck he could outlive me! LOL. Besides, every year of deterioration can take it's toll. I really liked that car, but we have to be realistic. It's over. Can't help but just wonder though. Guess it's a nice memory.

[ronn]

that is true Gene, but crazier things have happened, Im sure.


and then there is always buyers remorse which sets on down the road for a few.

[Mister Moose]

Originally Posted by Duckfarmer27

I've been on both sides of the block selling things - I'm not an auctioneer but was an owner in a business that heavily used auctioneers. There are disreputable auctioneers out there who will use a shill - or those who will bump you without a shill. You had better have your wits about you and be observant, no matter what you are buying at an auction

I've been to a lot of auctions as well. A number of the auctioneers will guarantee a minimum price to the seller in order to get the consignment. The shills then bid it up until the minimum is met. This is essentially the same thing as a "reserve" price on Ebay.

The shills are very good at it, and I found it impossible to watch the entire crowd when the bidding is rapid. I know what I'm willing to pay as it's a business transaction, not a hobby. If it goes over my price I move on. The auctioneers would frequently know me, and they would cajole me to try to get me to bid one more time. Once I cajoled them into shutting down the bidding when they were milking it on and on for another bid on my last bid. "Hey is this an auction or what?" I yelled. "Sold", cried the auctioneer, smiling in my direction. We had an understanding. He took my personal check, and I didn't believe a thing he said other than my bidder number and the invoice.

There were many auctions when the price on an item I would bid on got bid up into retail plus. I felt like yelling out "We all drove here and invested the time in order to get a deal. Did you seriously come this far to over pay?"

Some times due to exchange rates or other factors foreign buyers would just outbid you. Sometimes that swung the other way when I was in Canadian auctions.

I felt those auctions were the wild west. Bid accordingly.