help identifying 40 ford convertible

[turbotank]

I know there seems to be the facts that there wasnt any 40 ford convertible sedans made at all. alltho some people think there were 6 made for the worlds fair in 39. or that there were some made for the rose bowl parade.

so here are the facts of the car

-its titled a 1940 ford 4 dr convertible. no way of getting around that

-the serial number I8*5550918* matches the title,frame, engine, and trans

-the serial number falls way in to the 40 model year.

-the firewall is a 40

-the car has column shift

-the car has 40 tail lights

-hood, dash, grill are all 40.

-car was blue, and had duel spotlights. it also has a mount on the ds rear fender on top for either a light or an antenna of some sort.

if anyone can help me figure out what kinda unicorn we have here that would be great.

has anyone went to the henry ford museum and looked up a car by its serial number? or know how that works ?

thanks in advanced

[Mike in AZ]

welcome to the 'Barn....got pics?...we love pics...and someone will probably be able to help you.....good luck....Mike

[turbotank]

yes i have about 300 pics lol. i made a post on face book with the pics just cause it easier to snap and upload from my phone.

[39topless]

No proof but I saw one in Boulder in the mid sixties. They did make a 40' CS.

[turbotank]

wonder if a trip to ford is in order. this is going to take someone at ford who knows the shhhhh if you know what i mean. if its one of the 6 cars made for the worlds fair i want to find out, and get proof.

[V8COOPMAN]

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Originally Posted by 39topless

They did make a 40' CS.

Where do you get so much invalid info? No 1940 FORD Convert Sedans! DD

[40cpe]

There is a thread going over in the Early V8 forum about the same goose chase. Different serial number. Maybe you could combine your research.
http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/vie...=18&Topic=4068

[TonyM]

Originally Posted by turbotank

yes i have about 300 pics lol. i made a post on face book with the pics just cause it easier to snap and upload from my phone.

Where on Facebook? Several V-8 pages.

[turbotank]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Where do you get so much invalid info? No 1940 FORD Convert Sedans! DD

ive been looking at one for the last 5 months everyday. your more than welcome to come check it out on your own

[turbotank]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

There is a thread going over in the Early V8 forum about the same goose chase. Different serial number. Maybe you could combine your research.
http://www.earlyfordv8.org/forum/vie...=18&Topic=4068

yes i added on to the bottom of that one. well see. i also pmed the guy who seems to have alot of production numbers over ther also. hopefully they will reply

[turbotank]

Originally Posted by TonyM

Where on Facebook? Several V-8 pages.

the 1939/1940 ford page i uploaded a few today

also on the 'the flat spot" fb page

i put the title of the car on there also

[turbotank]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...type=3&theater

does this show up as a pic to you guys?

[Lanny]

Some of us, (me), are not on facebook, so could you please
post some pics here on this tread.

By the way, Welcome to the Fordbarn.








.

[turbotank]

@kube

[turbotank]

[deuce_roadster]

If the car was untouched it would be more believable. Dual spotlights? Give me a 39 cs body and I could put it on any of my 40 chassis and create another "mystery" car with matching numbers quite easily. It would take an expert with Kube's knowledge to determine if the car in question is such a combination.
Don't know if the cs bodies had a number on them like my woodie but if it did and say it was an early 39 cs body on a mid to late 40 frame you would know it was created after it left the factory.

[turbotank]

it has a 40 firewall tho. i would like to know if the body has a number also. i can provide any pic that someone wants to help determine just let me know where

[petehoovie]

In 1940 Mercury offered a 4 Door Convertible Sedan

[deuce_roadster]

I could make that out of my 40 convertible (and so could Kube) if I had a 39 CS body that say had a butchered firewall/cowl. I built a 40 convertible for a customer out of parts from several different cars and did it in a way VERY FEW people could ever tell it didn't come off the assembly line. I have a 40 convertible of my own that I am the first owner out of the family that bought it new and used it to copy all the welds etc.
If it turns out that is legit--- would be extra cool but absence of documentation I am skeptical.

[rockfla]

Shooting from memory here BUT several years back I was around a conversation about this car as we have a 40 Merc Conv Sedan, to me (and my memory) I thought I recall the owner of C & G Ford Parts in Escondido has one? I think I heard in the conversation that Ford made 4 or 6 (or something like that) of them. Maybe a call to C & G might help in figuring it out.

[jimTN]

I do not see the 40 stabilizer bar or mounting holes on the frame pic.

[turbotank]

Originally Posted by jimTN

I do not see the 40 stabilizer bar or mounting holes on the frame pic.

do you have a refence picture for me to look at so i can maybe look and see?

[37 Coupe]

Interesting the Ohio title and Pickaway County not far from me. 50-55 years ago there was what I thought was a black 1940 Ford 4 door convertible showing up occaisonally in town in the summer. Only access I had then as a kid was AMT to i.d a certain model or year of an early Ford or my dad. Wasn't even close to a 39 or a 40 Ford found out years later it was a 1936 Ford Phaeton with a 1940 Ford front end,never noticed the flat windshield I guess. Unique car that I think is still close by was Wanda Connors in Blacklick Ohio but back in the day was close to Circleville and Pickaway County.

[Kube]

Oh boy, I am very apprehensive to weigh in on this one. Why? Because I am nearly certain I'll have a number of guys tell me I am full of poopy, etc.
I chose to weigh in well, for one, I've been called worse (by better men) and two, I do have a little research experience with these supposed "40 convertible sedans".

Now, here's what I had found out about these orphans: _________________
That's right, nothing, zip, zero, nada. There was never any documentation uncovered by me nor anyone else that I am aware of that Ford actually built any of these cars.
I began my look in to these way back in the 1980's.
There were stories, photos, rumors, but no documentation.
Where's that leave us? Well, in my humble opinion, Ford did NOT create these cars. As Deuce has advised, this would be a rather simple project for anyone with good body craft skills. Plus, keep in mind that when these cars were stating to be "discovered" in the late 50's / early 60's, the "donor cars" ('39 conv. sedan & 40 anything) had little to no value. Also, the "heyday" of modifying cars. I also need to pose this question: "Why is there no record of these from 1940 forward"? They seemingly "popped up" in the late 50's.
Deuce made another very valid point. Numbers matching frame, transmission and title are all too easy to acquire and / or manufacture. In fact, this car would be simple to build - far easier than some serious restorations I've done.
The two factory equipped Mercury engine'd 1940 Fords I have had (still have one) were purchased by me with full documentation right back to build "sheets". Plus, I did research to find corresponding proof that these two vehicles were as they were purported to be.

I have witnessed first hand 1940 Ford convertible coupes, yep, rumble seat, floor shift... beautiful cars. Ford never built one but I had on two separate occasions two different guys insisting they were "real". Yes, I'd agree...real cars. No, not Ford built.

That old wives tale of these being built for the Worlds Fair... really? Does it not seem odd that Ford would have built them so late in to 1940 production (according to the number on the one in this thread)? That number puts it in the late January to perhaps mid to late February build.

Not sure if all '39 convertible sedans had a body number plate. My guess would be "yes". I have had numerous '40 convertibles and most (all but one) had a body plate. Even that one had the nail holes for the body plate rivets, plate being absent. Every '39 convertible I have had, has had a body plate as well.
Oh, one more thing on this thought... even the '40 coupes with factory equipped Mercury engines had body plates. And, in two of three that I know of, had the cowl stamped to indicate Mercury engine'd Ford.
My current '40 convertible has both a body plate and the cowl stamped to indicate this "anomaly".
The point being: Ford did tend to keep control of what they were building.

Bottom line? As has been advised previously, be skeptical, be VERY skeptical.

Ford did tend to document - very well in fact, any "customs / prototype' cars they authorized. The lack of anything mentioning this car leads me to believe (to reiterate) this car never happened at Ford or "by" Ford.

I try my best to keep an open mind about this type of thing and to that point, and in regard to this particular vehicle, I would welcome proof contrary to my opinion of its pedigree.

As a final note I truly would enjoy thoughtful responses to this thread.
Respectfully,
Mike "Kube" Kubarth

[TJ]

A photo of the paper work on the car tells us absolutely nothing. A 39 convertible sedan body could have been moved to a 40 chassis and the front end changed etc. A very easy task to convert the car to a 40. Column shift? No problem you just change the column which you would do if you moved the body to a 40 chassis. Unless there is some documentation in the Ford archives it's not a real 40. Lots of urban legends out there when it comes to old cars.

[Kube]

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Originally Posted by TJ

A photo of the paper work on the car tells us absolutely nothing. A 39 convertible sedan body could have been moved to a 40 chassis and the front end changed etc. A very easy task to convert the car to a 40. Column shift? No problem you just change the column which you would do if you moved the body to a 40 chassis. Unless there is some documentation in the Ford archives it's not a real 40. Lots of urban legends out there when it comes to old cars.

Ya know, I am going to follow this (interesting) thread and hopefully, no one will mind if I chime in here and there.
At this moment, I would like to comment on TJ's post:
TJ has very accurately pointed out how easy this car could have been created and also how easy it would have been to acquire the "paper" shown along with this car.

I like his "urban legends" comment. That reminds me of all the stories of the cars that came out of California museums. Must be thousands of car museums for that many cars to have been stored out there

[37 Coupe]

Also I think if Ford was showing or promoting a 4 door convertible or needed on for the worlds fair they would have showcased what they already had the 1940 Mercury not build special Fords. Sorta like the question why did Ford make a club convertible,an enclosed back seat versus or along with a rumble seat open car in 1936 1937 1938 and in 1939 not offer a convertible coupe car but resort to the rumble seat again? If you wanted that you had to buy the new Mercury sport convertible.

[Vic Piano]

Every '39 Ford CS has a body number plate on the firewall, mine is #1,507 out of a total of 3,561 '39 CS's built. As others have said, you could create a '40 Ford CS using a '40 frame and running gear along with the '39 CS body. My cars Vin # makes it is a mid to late production car, which would indicate that the body # (mid production) and Vin # have no correlation relevant to actual production dates... Further, the Certificate of title in the photo shows Model 01A, that indicates a 1940 deluxe but does not describe the body style. For example, the '39 Ford CS ID is 91A-74B while the only convertible listing for Ford in 1940 is; 01A-76A, Deluxe Convertible Club Coupe. Just adding info to the conundrum...

[turbotank]

kube, thanks for the input.

let me start off that im not trying to argue with anyone that it is or isnt a real 40. just mearly trying to figure it out.

couple of things. is there any photos that anyone would like to see of the car in maybe some special places to help identfy this car? pics of the welds on the firewall? some bracket someware that might be diffrent? im going to go find the trans tunnel cover here in a min and look it over.

do you guys think it would be worth the time to go up to michigan and go through the arcives? i read on there site it burnt down in 1970 and there isnt much left on these models.

[turbotank]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Every '39 Ford CS has a body number plate on the firewall, mine is #1,507 out of a total of 3,561 '39 CS's built. As others have said, you could create a '40 Ford CS using a '40 frame and running gear along with the '39 CS body. My cars Vin # makes it is a mid to late production car, which would indicate that the body # (mid production) and Vin # have no correlation relevant to actual production dates... Further, the Certificate of title in the photo shows Model 01A, that indicates a 1940 deluxe but does not describe the body style. For example, the '39 Ford CS ID is 91A-74B while the only convertible listing for Ford in 1940 is; 01A-76A, Deluxe Convertible Club Coupe. Just adding info to the conundrum...

it is a very good posibility that back in the 50's they made some "corrections" to the title when it was transfered.

[Vic Piano]

Originally Posted by turbotank

it is a very good posibility that back in the 50's they made some "corrections" to the title when it was transfered.

Altering registrations or titles (on purpose or by mistake) is nothing new. Case in point; when I got my '39 CS the registration listed the car as a Sedan. Regardless of changes that might have been made to paperwork relating to a particular vehicle, all the available information from Ford indicates that there were no '40 Ford Convertible Sedans built by the company.

[37 Coupe]

I would still like to see a picture. I spent about 1/2 hour looking on sites you listed on Facebook and nothing like you are describing but some nice Fords.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by turbotank

kube, thanks for the input.

let me start off that im not trying to argue with anyone that it is or isnt a real 40. just mearly trying to figure it out.

couple of things. is there any photos that anyone would like to see of the car in maybe some special places to help identfy this car? pics of the welds on the firewall? some bracket someware that might be diffrent? im going to go find the trans tunnel cover here in a min and look it over.

do you guys think it would be worth the time to go up to michigan and go through the arcives? i read on there site it burnt down in 1970 and there isnt much left on these models.

I did not once think you were looking to argue. I felt you were attempting to sort out this anomaly.

There is a ton of information in the Benson Ford Research Center covering 1939 -1940. In fact, it can easily become overwhelming.
Will a trip there help you? Possibly, but my guess is only in that it may put to rest any questions you may possibly still have.
I never found anything that even in a remote way mentioned this "model".
Now, did I over look something? Possibly. Was something found and cataloged later? Possibly.

[cas3]

i once applied for a title for a 1930 packard phaeton. the car was photographed for the title app, and the first title that came back stated that it was a 2 door! i went to the dmv and argued that you could see 4 doors, and it has a convertable top, which is called a phaeton. the second title came back calling it a 4 door ! i quit after that. my point is, what it says on the title means nothing in my opinion. skip

[37 Coupe]

Originally Posted by cas3

i once applied for a title for a 1930 packard phaeton. the car was photographed for the title app, and the first title that came back stated that it was a 2 door! i went to the dmv and argued that you could see 4 doors, and it has a convertable top, which is called a phaeton. the second title came back calling it a 4 door ! i quit after that. my point is, what it says on the title means nothing in my opinion. skip

About 25 years ago I was transferring or attempting to a Ohio title for my 1939 Ford convertible coupe. The title from 1957 left out the convertible part just said coupe and I tried to get gal to type in convertible.She got her boss claiming I was trying to pressure her into altering a title. Still says coupe.

[turbotank]

well after some investigation i think i know what happend. im uploading some photos right now. will up date when i get back from lunch

[turbotank]

[turbotank]

this car was in a wreck.

someone bought a regular 40 ford, and replaced everything on the car that was damaged with 40 parts, including the frame and drive train. and threw away the 39 title.

sad in many ways.

as u can see the welds on the firewall replacemnt were not done very well. but it did get some resistance welds

the trans cover was modded to fit the 40 firewall and the floor shifter was patched up

[mhsprecher]

Fascinating thread and mystery solved. What are you going to do with it. Restore it, I hope.

[maneri]

1940 dash for woody/convertible different than closed car dash pics??

[deuce_roadster]

My friend who did the wood on my woodie also has a 40 woodie he brought up here to Washington from California. His Cal title has for the vin 81A-6050 which most of you will recognize as the part # for the left hand head!

[deuce_roadster]

Yeah, 95% of that cowl is the same as woodie, the dash fits both convertible and woodie.
Regular passenger cars are different. They took the cowl from a convertible.
Would be cool as is or restored if you can find the missing parts. A 39 convertible would have to be the donor.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by maneri

1940 dash for woody/convertible different than closed car dash pics??

The most notable difference is the width and the ends.
The open car dash is about 3/4" wider than the closed car dash.
The ends on an open dash curve upward much more so than the closed car dash.

[turbotank]

Originally Posted by mhsprecher

Fascinating thread and mystery solved. What are you going to do with it. Restore it, I hope.

yes this car is getting the double wammy restoration

[Gumpy]

Would be worth it to restore, great conversation piece thanks for sharing!

[turbotank]

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Originally Posted by Gumpy

Would be worth it to restore, great conversation piece thanks for sharing!

yes it has one hell of a story now ahhahahaha.

there is 21 years of its life i cant account for. i may do some more digging but were talking about someone who could be in the upper 90's by now

[Bill]

I recall seeing a picture of a "40 conv. sedan" in one of those Peterson magazines that were issued from time to time back in the 70/80s.I believe they called it a model that Ford never built. I have that book in my pile here. Now I have a reason to go look! Anyone else out there remember that? Bill

[turbotank]

Originally Posted by Bill

I recall seeing a picture of a "40 conv. sedan" in one of those Peterson magazines that were issued from time to time back in the 70/80s.I believe they called it a model that Ford never built. I have that book in my pile here. Now I have a reason to go look! Anyone else out there remember that? Bill

id be interested in that

[TJ]

Originally Posted by Kube

Ya know, I am going to follow this (interesting) thread and hopefully, no one will mind if I chime in here and there.
At this moment, I would like to comment on TJ's post:
TJ has very accurately pointed out how easy this car could have been created and also how easy it would have been to acquire the "paper" shown along with this car.

I like his "urban legends" comment. That reminds me of all the stories of the cars that came out of California museums. Must be thousands of car museums for that many cars to have been stored out there

As a followup, Lorin Sorensen did a book on the Ford Shows which included many of the World's Fairs. There was nothing in those books (photos or otherwise) showing a '40 convertible sedan. Lorin was a '40 guy and my wife worked for him typing many of his books and other publications. I'm sure if there was a '40 convertible sedan he would have written about it.

[39topless]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

Where do you get so much invalid info? No 1940 FORD Convert Sedans! DD

Dear DD,
I am highly offended by your suggestion that I am an invalid. I may not be like I once was but I can still do for myself quite nicely.

[1942deluxe]

39topless, at least he didn't suggest you had reptile dysfunction.

[Milt/Las Vegas]

Originally Posted by Kube

The most notable difference is the width and the ends.
The open car dash is about 3/4" wider than the closed car dash.
The ends on an open dash curve upward much more so than the closed car dash.

Is the open car dash different in the speaker grille area?

[Milt/Las Vegas]

I remember reading some place that is was not all that uncommon for ford to use the same serial number on 2 different years.Anybody want to weigh in on that?I have a 40 coupe and 2 40 convs.and none of them had a body plate with the serial number on them.

[deuce_roadster]

Radio opening is the same on regular and conv/woodie dash.

[Reisterstown Ray]

I have a Ford and Mercury Chassis Parts and Price List catalog. It covers 1938-39-40-41 passenger cars and trucks. Copyright 1941 Ford Motor Company Dearborn, Michigan. Under 1940 Passenger Car Body types it lists Body Type 09A-74 Name Convertible Sedan [116" wheelbase]. This catalog is not a reprint, but a well used original. While a convertible sedan is listed I guess it is not proof it was ever manufactured. RR

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Milt/Las Vegas

Is the open car dash different in the speaker grille area?

The only differences between the open and closed car dashes I had pointed out in a previous post. No other differences.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Reisterstown Ray

I have a Ford and Mercury Chassis Parts and Price List catalog. It covers 1938-39-40-41 passenger cars and trucks. Copyright 1941 Ford Motor Company Dearborn, Michigan. Under 1940 Passenger Car Body types it lists Body Type 09A-74 Name Convertible Sedan [116" wheelbase]. This catalog is not a reprint, but a well used original. While a convertible sedan is listed I guess it is not proof it was ever manufactured. RR

That's the Mercury (116"wb)

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Milt/Las Vegas

I remember reading some place that is was not all that uncommon for ford to use the same serial number on 2 different years.Anybody want to weigh in on that?I have a 40 coupe and 2 40 convs.and none of them had a body plate with the serial number on them.

The body plate does NOT reference the serial number. It only references the body number.
Your convertible had a plate on it when built. They often have gone "missing" through the years following.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Reisterstown Ray

I have a Ford and Mercury Chassis Parts and Price List catalog. It covers 1938-39-40-41 passenger cars and trucks. Copyright 1941 Ford Motor Company Dearborn, Michigan. Under 1940 Passenger Car Body types it lists Body Type 09A-74 Name Convertible Sedan [116" wheelbase]. This catalog is not a reprint, but a well used original. While a convertible sedan is listed I guess it is not proof it was ever manufactured. RR

Originally Posted by Kube

That's the Mercury (116"wb)

Kube is correct, as usual. The "9" in 09A-74 refers to Mercury, where-as the "1" in 01A- refers to Ford production. DD

[maneri]

heard once that if a model year was left over to the next year--- that the next year date went on the title like late 1929 sold in 1930 was titled a 1930

[Kube]

Originally Posted by maneri

heard once that if a model year was left over to the next year--- that the next year date went on the title like late 1929 sold in 1930 was titled a 1930

That depended on the way the state titled and / or registered the vehicles. Some states registered the car as to the date it was sold and not by the manufacture's model year designation.

[Lanny]

I would like to know what states registered cars as to the date they were sold.

Most every car manufacturer has changes in each model year, however small,
that would make it nearly impossible to title it as a different model year.

Does anyone here have a car that is titled as a different year, than it appears to be,
say from the late 20's forward.

Please show a picture of car and year listed on title if you have one......thx







.

[A bones]

Yes PA. did it that way. I owned a a '56 loaded demo model. It was sold and titled as a '57.

There is an old B/W snap some where but the car and papers are long gone.

The deal is I became the second owner in 1965. The title and registration both said January 1957 Dodge Cpe. The car was optioned out as a Royal Lancer D-500 Coronet. I understand the sales crew not wanting to let it go!

[Milt/Las Vegas]

Originally Posted by Kube

The only differences between the open and closed car dashes I had pointed out in a previous post. No other differences.

I believe the cowl mounting holes are in different locations.

[Lanny]

There are many cars that are very similar year to year, but I have
Never seen a car that could be called a '56 OR a '57 by a manufacturer.


Maybe someone has some pics and documentation. Thx





.

[A bones]

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[QUOTE=turbotank;1207649

-its titled a 1940 ford 4 dr convertible. no way of getting around that

-the serial number I8*5550918* matches the title,frame, engine, and trans

[/QUOTE]

The point that post #61 and #62 bring up and I confirm is titlework need not be proof of Y.O.M.

Lanny
Pardon my concern, however you still did not see or hear of a car called both a '56 or '57. I merely Point to the fact that the state of Pennsylvania used to (I left it in the year 2000, they might still but cannot verify) title cars with the date that they first became aware of the revenue of a sale. The car might have lived on the dealers lot unsold. Nobody ever called my '56 Dodge a '57. We were, all of us, very car, model, and year conscious. The difference between the two years was night and day. It did not matter to Harrisburg. They only wanted to track the revenue.

I apologize for taking this thread else were. I'll be glad to delete my posts. It matters not to me. Let me know you understand. My house is the first one on the block

[Lanny]

Well, 2+2 isn't adding up to 4 on the original posters car and documentation.

More facts about it will prove that it is either a '39 OR a '40. There are so many
differences, it has to be one or the other. I doubt a '39 will be titled as a '40 in any state.










.

[swoopNZ]

This same topic came up about 5 years ago on the Barn.
Was covered fairly well at the time.

[deuce_roadster]

Yogi Berra would say "It's like Deja Vo all over again"

[Kube]

[QUOTE=Lanny;1208737]I would like to know what states registered cars as to the date they were sold.

Most every car manufacturer has changes in each model year, however small,
that would make it nearly impossible to title it as a different model year.

Does anyone here have a car that is titled as a different year, than it appears to be,
say from the late 20's forward.

Please show a picture of car and year listed on title if you have one......thx





It's a fairly well known fact that numerous states did it that way for a number of years.
A Bones has pointed out some specific examples.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Milt/Las Vegas

I believe the cowl mounting holes are in different locations.

They are the same.

[Kube]

[QUOTE=Lanny;1208814]Well, 2+2 isn't adding up to 4 on the original posters car and documentation.

More facts about it will prove that it is either a '39 OR a '40. There are so many
differences, it has to be one or the other. I doubt a '39 will be titled as a '40 in any state.


Lanny, flash forward to 2015... How difficult do you believe it would be to place a '39 body on a '40 chassis and go to the DMV and get a title stating 1940? Especially if all you had to do was transfer the '40 title.
Simple actually.

[STEVE O]

I know this has nothing to do with Fords but I have copy of factory Crosley dealer literature that states the dealer to mail your 1951 Crosley serial numbers plates from cars not sold that year and you will be issued 1952 serial plates, although they do have numbers stamped in the frame ??????????? I do have titles from my grandfather scrap yard titled as 2 different years, but even so a 39 is a 39 regards what a state my come up with in my opinion. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

[Lanny]

Originally Posted by A bones

Yes PA. did it that way. I owned a a '56 loaded demo model. It was sold and titled as a '57.

There is an old B/W snap some where but the car and papers are long gone.

The deal is I became the second owner in 1965. The title and registration both said January 1957 Dodge Cpe. The car was optioned out as a Royal Lancer D-500 Coronet. I understand the sales crew not wanting to let it go!

================================================== =



In this post you say that your '56 was purhased early in '57
so it is titled as a '57.
The '57 Coronet is a completely different looking car than a '56 Coronet.

I'm saying that I don't think the purchase date determines what year
it is listed to be on the title.
The year of a vehicle is determined by the manufacturer, Not the State.










.

[Lanny]

Originally Posted by A bones

The point that post #61 and #62 bring up and I confirm is titlework need not be proof of Y.O.M.

Lanny
Pardon my concern, however you still did not see or hear of a car called both a '56 or '57. I merely Point to the fact that the state of Pennsylvania used to (I left it in the year 2000, they might still but cannot verify) title cars with the date that they first became aware of the revenue of a sale. The car might have lived on the dealers lot unsold. Nobody ever called my '56 Dodge a '57. We were, all of us, very car, model, and year conscious. The difference between the two years was night and day. It did not matter to Harrisburg. They only wanted to track the revenue.

I apologize for taking this thread else were. I'll be glad to delete my posts. It matters not to me. Let me know you understand. My house is the first one on the block

================================================== =




Tom, here you say that nobody ever called your '56 a '57.










.

[A bones]

Yes sir. No person who could look at the car would call it a '57. Harrisburg PA, however never saw it, and did not care about Y.O.M. Hope we are good here.

[Kube]

[QUOTE=Lanny;1209175]================================================== =



In this post you say that your '56 was purhased early in '57
so it is titled as a '57.
The '57 Coronet is a completely different looking car than a '56 Coronet.

I'm saying that I don't think the purchase date determines what year
it is listed to be on the title.
The year of a vehicle is determined by the manufacturer, Not the State.

Lanny, The model year is in fact determined by the manufacturer NOW. However, in years past, this was not always the case. Some states issued titles / registrations respective of when the car was first sold.
It might not make much sense and it may be difficult for you to comprehend - however, that was the way it was done.

[Lanny]

Kube, so your saying that a '32 Ford could be titled as a '33
Or a '34 as a '35, Or a '40 as a '41 and so on.......
Is that what you are saying










.

[VeryTangled]

Hi Everyone, Lanny, yup, that's what he said. People at the registration place don't really know or care if they are/were correct. It's just another piece of paper to them.

[1942deluxe]

Lanny, what Kube is saying is 100% correct. I have a 1947 Ford business coupe (799a prefix vin) which is clearly a 1947 VIN and it is titled as a 1948. If it was a 1948 it should start with a 899A prefix. In my town there is a 1936 Ford coupe that is titled as a 1935. Mutual friend hand walked the paperwork to Harrisburg ( PA.) for him. He asked the lady at the DMV if the year could be corrected easily. Her answer was "you don't even want to know what can of worms you would open". The only time I've read about Ford doing something like that was on the 1970 Shelby Mustangs. They were built as 1969's but the decision was made to drop the car and reserialize them as 1970's.

[Lanny]

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

Hi Everyone, Lanny, yup, that's what he said. People at the registration place don't really know or care if they are/were correct. It's just another piece of paper to them.

==================================================




Then there would have been very few cars sold in December,
Most would buy there car in January so it would be titled as
one year newer than it would have been in December, HUH.

We would not be talking about a couple of cars, if that was
the way it was done, we would be talking about many, many
cars that would be titled that way. Hard to believe.









.

[Kube]

[QUOTE=Lanny;1209303]==================================================




Then there would have been very few cars sold in December,
Most would buy there car in January so it would be titled as
one year newer than it would have been in December, HUH.

We would not be talking about a couple of cars, if that was
the way it was done, we would be talking about many, many
cars that would be titled that way. Hard to believe.


Lanny, While it may be difficult for you to believe, it remains factual.

[Kube]

[QUOTE=Lanny;1209289]Kube, so your saying that a '32 Ford could be titled as a '33
Or a '34 as a '35, Or a '40 as a '41 and so on.......
Is that what you are saying




Yes, precisely. While not all states did it this way, some did.

[1942deluxe]

Or going the other way too. As in my friends 1936 being titled as a 1935 because it was titled in late 1935. I think times were tough and you were just happy to have a
car period. They were not worried about people that would be restoring cars 60-70
years later. Many cars were driven until they were worn out and junked. There was
a 1942 Fordor on here awhile back that got "flipped" as I recall. Titled as a 1941 (NJ) but clearly a 1942 Deluxe so it appears other states did the same thing as PA. .

[maneri]

----sorry---

[Milt/Las Vegas]

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Originally Posted by Kube

They are the same.

The holes on a 40 ford dash that I got with a 40 convertible project don't even come close to lining up.So,I thought it was probably was a closed car dash.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Milt/Las Vegas

The holes on a 40 ford dash that I got with a 40 convertible project don't even come close to lining up.So,I thought it was probably was a closed car dash.

Well, I suppose it's possible that some were made with differing hole location patterns. However, all of the dashes I have and have ever had, fit the same.
In fact, I have witnessed a number (too many) of convertibles otherwise nicely restored with closed car dashes.
They install without modification but require some fancy "masking" at each end to fill the gap by the "too narrow" closed dash panel.

The very first convertible I had restored some 40+ years ago... I had a beautiful dash all ready for it. Installed it when I finally got to that point and noticed it just didn't "look right". Well, the reason it didn;t look right, is it was a closed car dash. Even at that time, it was a bit difficult to find an op0en car dash to replace it. I did of course but learned the lesson early on...

[Milt/Las Vegas]

That's good news.I'll try a little harder to make it fit.Thanks Kube.

[Bill]

So after 89 posts still no picture of the elusive 40 Ford conv. sedan clone. I looked thru some old publications couldn't come up with one. It's out there... Bill

[Vic Piano]

Bill, I have seen photos, in the past, of '39 Ford CS's with '40 Headlamp doors and even '40 Deluxe hoods, etc., I may have even seen one with a column shift (CRS). Not to change the subject but perhaps to muddy the water a bit more, a few years ago I saw a '38 Ford Convertible Club Coupe with '38 Standard front clip on it. I always thought that the only Convertibles that were available in Standard trim were Roadsters and Phaetons. No Ford Convertible Sedans ('35 to '39) were offered in anything but Deluxe trim... As far as I know.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Bill, I have seen photos, in the past, of '39 Ford CS's with '40 Headlamp doors and even '40 Deluxe hoods, etc., I may have even seen one with a column shift (CRS). Not to change the subject but perhaps to muddy the water a bit more, a few years ago I saw a '38 Ford Convertible Club Coupe with '38 Standard front clip on it. I always thought that the only Convertibles that were available in Standard trim were Roadsters and Phaetons. No Ford Convertible Sedans ('35 to '39) were offered in anything but Deluxe trim... As far as I know.

Vic, your observation of a '38 "standard" convertible is one of those that can easily be verified at the Benson Ford Center. There are very accurate records as to how many of each model and from each plant were built.
Records found during my research for the 1940 book allowed me to realize precisely how many of each model were built and what engines were installed in them respectively.
I did not always find documented reasons why certain cars were built but the numbers - they were easily found.
Even found that a number of 1940 Ford Deluxe convertibles were built with the 60HP engine.

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by Kube

Even found that a number of 1940 Ford Deluxe convertibles were built with the 60HP engine.

And even with a tube axle (?????).....! DD

[Vic Piano]

Originally Posted by Kube

Vic, your observation of a '38 "standard" convertible is one of those that can easily be verified at the Benson Ford Center. There are very accurate records as to how many of each model and from each plant were built.
Records found during my research for the 1940 book allowed me to realize precisely how many of each model were built and what engines were installed in them respectively.
I did not always find documented reasons why certain cars were built but the numbers - they were easily found.
Even found that a number of 1940 Ford Deluxe convertibles were built with the 60HP engine.

Kube, that's very interesting, as I said, I did not think that Ford built any convertible bodies with the Standard trim package except for Roadsters and Phaetons. I also read somewhere that the '39 Ford Convertible Sedans were assembled at the Lincoln Plant, not at the Rouge.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Vic Piano

Kube, that's very interesting, as I said, I did not think that Ford built any convertible bodies with the Standard trim package except for Roadsters and Phaetons. I also read somewhere that the '39 Ford Convertible Sedans were assembled at the Lincoln Plant, not at the Rouge.

Vic, Maybe I was not clear... I have no clue whether or not Ford built a '38 standard convertible. Just sayin' that is one thing easy to find out at the Ford Research Center.
When researching for my book, I was actually quite surprised at what cars were built in 1940.

Seems to me your correct in regard to your CS being built at the Lincoln plant.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

And even with a tube axle (?????).....! DD

I did not come upon any documentation that tube axles were installed in deluxe cars.
However, I have come upon one such vehicle that appeared to have been so equipped from the factory. Still, I'll be the first to admit that is not "proof".

[Sixseven]

Originally Posted by turbotank

this car was in a wreck.

someone bought a regular 40 ford, and replaced everything on the car that was damaged with 40 parts, including the frame and drive train. and threw away the 39 title.

sad in many ways.

as u can see the welds on the firewall replacemnt were not done very well. but it did get some resistance welds

the trans cover was modded to fit the 40 firewall and the floor shifter was patched up

That sure is alot of work to repair a 39 model car that was in a wreck. It surely had to have been totaled to have such extensive parts replacement. The car was probably only worth a couple hundred dollars when repaired. The car's history would surely be interesting.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Sixseven

That sure is alot of work to repair a 39 model car that was in a wreck. It surely had to have been totaled to have such extensive parts replacement. The car was probably only worth a couple hundred dollars when repaired. The car's history would surely be interesting.

Not too much work actually.
Reminds me of a '35 Packard coupe I had about 20 years ago. Came from the family that had it since the early 50's. Front clip was off.
When I went to put the car together, the side mounted front fenders would not allow the doors adaquet clearance to open.
Turns out the front clip was from a junk yard (decades ago) and was from a larger series Packard.
I am certain at the time, the car and the front clip were nearly worthless.
This kind of thing happened a lot!
Hey, I put a 77 Chevelle front clip on a 74 El Camino back in the late 70's. Both the vehicle and the clip were cheap and easy to swap.

[JHFORD51]

Couple of side items:

The frame picture of the "homade" 40 CS shows the three small holes where the V8-60 engine mounts would have riveted on; all 85 hp cars I have seen here in southeast don't have these holes punched. Perhaps this is a 40 STD frame. Maybe put a 40 STD grille and hood on and call it a "late 39"...that would really make folks talk!

Not really germane to older cars but here in GA if you purchase a truck that originated as a cab/chassis or just a chassis with firewall/clip the year of manufacture is I believe, when the company upfitted the truck, not when Ford/GM/Freightliner, etc built the chassis.

[V8COOPMAN]

Wow, this pic just popped-up on the front page of MSN. DD

[Vic Piano]

That must be all her luggage in the back seat... With the top in the lowered position, and the spare tire in the trunk, there's not much room for additional luggage in the '39 CS trunk.

[mercman from oz]

After making some enquiries regarding this Subject, I have located this 1940 Ford Deluxe Convertible Sedan, owned by Dan Snyder. In Dan's own words, this is what he had to say:- "The story is that Ford deleted the Convertible Sedan from their 1940 lineup, but in June of 1939 they produced 6 Convertible Sedans as though they were 1940 models (grille, dashboard, column shift, etc) for use during the 1940 World's Fair. Of these 6, only 2 are known to still exist: one is a Hot Rod in California, and I have the other. Or, this car might have been wrecked and the repair shop had the parts to convert it to look like a 1940. My car is mostly 1940 style, with a few exceptions. The 1940 Convertible Coupe had swing-open vent windows at the leading edge of the door windows, and mine has the same front door windows as a 'regular' 1939 Convertible Sedan. Also, my car has 1939 tail lights. There may be more, but at this point I'm ignorant. S/N 184989374 - putting if firmly into the 1939 model year. Body plate number is 2559, out of the 3561 built in 1939. So it's not even near the end of the run for 1939."
I hope that this added information is of interest to other Ford Barners.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by mercman from oz

After making some enquiries regarding this Subject, I have located this 1940 Ford Deluxe Convertible Sedan, owned by Dan Snyder. In Dan's own words, this is what he had to say:- "The story is that Ford deleted the Convertible Sedan from their 1940 lineup, but in June of 1939 they produced 6 Convertible Sedans as though they were 1940 models (grille, dashboard, column shift, etc) for use during the 1940 World's Fair. Of these 6, only 2 are known to still exist: one is a Hot Rod in California, and I have the other. Or, this car might have been wrecked and the repair shop had the parts to convert it to look like a 1940. My car is mostly 1940 style, with a few exceptions. The 1940 Convertible Coupe had swing-open vent windows at the leading edge of the door windows, and mine has the same front door windows as a 'regular' 1939 Convertible Sedan. Also, my car has 1939 tail lights. There may be more, but at this point I'm ignorant. S/N 184989374 - putting if firmly into the 1939 model year. Body plate number is 2559, out of the 3561 built in 1939. So it's not even near the end of the run for 1939."
I hope that this added information is of interest to other Ford Barners.

Personally I do find this "interesting". I also find it yet more of an argument that Ford did NOT produce this model in 1940.
Your car, although processing the "cool" factor" is quite obviously a modified '39.
I can't quite tell from the photo but the dash appears to be from a closed model (latter production) 1940 car.
Might you post a photo of the floor as well as the firewall?
Thanks.

[Fancy Dancer]

Thanks, Kube, for your analysis. This confirms my worst fears.
Right now the dashboard is out of the car, being painted. Should I try to source a dashboard from a 1940 Convertible or Station Wagon?

I'll take the photos that you requested, and post them in the next day or two.

Sometimes (often?) I'm overwhelmed by my ignorance!

[Bill]

So I thought this thread was pretty well beat to death but I love how it's still haunting us! Dan Snyder is somewhere in the USA right? Second I googled thru 10 pages (gonna be a long winter) and came up with the street rod version located in Spokane Valley Wa. Try showroomautomotive.com for a glimpse. Costs nothing to look... to buy well that's another question... Still my favorite in any body style 40 Deluxe Bill

[alt63bird]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that a '39 wheel cover on the driver's front wheel, e.g. wide-5 wheels/hubs/drums? And Kube's right - pull-down ashtray = post-December '39 dash.

[Fancy Dancer]

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When I visited a friend's shop a while back, up on his wall there was a photo of another one at a meet, I think in northern California in the early 1990's. This one was more 1940-ish than the one on Showroom Automotive's website. Apparently the original was badly rusted, and it required considerable work on the lower parts of the doors and fenders to make it whole again.

[Kube]

Originally Posted by Fancy Dancer

Thanks, Kube, for your analysis. This confirms my worst fears.
Right now the dashboard is out of the car, being painted. Should I try to source a dashboard from a 1940 Convertible or Station Wagon?

I'll take the photos that you requested, and post them in the next day or two.

Sometimes (often?) I'm overwhelmed by my ignorance!

I'd like to see a more detailed photo of the dash prior to saying with 100% authority yours is a closed car dash for certain. The photograph I have attached herein depicts a closed car (late design) to the left and an open car dash (early design) to the right. perhaps this may be helpful to you.
If, like I beleive it is, a closed car dash, well then, an open car dash (or wagon) would fit much better. The open car dash is wider and curves up more at each end making it fit the cowl area much better.

[Fancy Dancer]

"Proof" that it isn't a '40.

Dan

[Vic Piano]

I just looked at the photos of the '39/'40 CS and I noticed that the "B" Pillar section behind the front seat has a corner near the door, not a smooth curve like my '39 CS or any of the others that I have seen... More controversy...?

[JHFORD51]

also 39 dlx outside door handles on the maroon car (have to look close at the pics)...39 firewall as well

[Steve/IL]

Found this picture on the internet: