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02-12-2018, 12:01 PM | #21 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
My old 49 thru 51 Lincoln/Mercury O/H Manual states 55 PSI for oil pump output pressure. This should be the same for all of the 8BA family of engines.
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02-12-2018, 06:51 PM | #22 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
The flat on the pressure relief valve on the early engines is to oil the cam gear to block thrust face. As Bored&Stroked said this was eliminated on 8ba when they changed the thrust into the timing cover. With early timing gears it is good to have some oiling to the thrust face. I leave the relief valve out and install a squirter directed at the thrust face.
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02-12-2018, 07:18 PM | #23 | |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
Quote:
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02-13-2018, 02:37 AM | #24 | |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
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02-13-2018, 03:02 AM | #25 | |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
Quote:
The statement that pressure doesn´t matter as long as you have oil getting into the bearing might work if it wasn´t for other issues like cavitation. |
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02-13-2018, 09:23 AM | #26 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
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And, "JSeery", I've been thinking about it, and I can't get my head on why a pump capable of 80 psi, but "blowing off" at 50 psi would take any more energy to turn than a pump capable of only 50 psi. A larger pump or one of a different design, maybe. |
02-13-2018, 10:09 AM | #27 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
The oil pump is a totally mechinical device. A rod driven by gears drives other gears. The rate it is turning is determined by engine RPM. Nothing varies based on engine demand, system pressure is controlled by relief valves. Excess volumn is dumped. This excess flow which is just dumped is wasted energy. Ideally oil pump output would match engine requirements, but that would be difficult to achive. So the pump produces excess flow and then using a relief valve assures flow requirements are met. With the so-called #50 pump you can increase system pressure by increasing the relief valve spring, so there is excess flow out of the pump already. Not sure what additional flow from a higher output pump is going to do if you are just dumping more oil at the relif valve, you are just comsumming more energy at the pump for the same results downstream of the relief valve.
High flow oil pumps are beneficial in high performance applications when the bearing clearances are opened up. Additional oil flow is required to maintain the required oil film layer. Last edited by JSeery; 02-13-2018 at 11:00 AM. |
02-13-2018, 11:36 AM | #28 | |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
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I'll go out on a limb here and say that going with a late pump but still using the stock relief system is probably the way to go on an early engine. For all intents and purposes, the relief valve in the pump will never come into play in this scenario. The engine will get the same amount and pressure as the stock system, but with a little less energy expended to drive the pump because of it's inherent efficiency. |
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02-13-2018, 11:47 AM | #29 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
LOL, that's the whole point! More energy required in one place (oil pump) has to come from somewhere (drivetrain). I really don't know about the pump design efficiency point (straight gears vs helical gears), that may well be a factor. I was just referring to oil pumps and oil pressure in general on any engine. It would be interesting to see if there is any dyno data on the topic.
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02-13-2018, 01:17 PM | #30 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
The deplacement of the pump is increased in 3 steps.
1. short straight gear 2. long straight gear 3. long helical gear. Increased deplacement at same pressure takes more power...but... The helical gears give you less pressure ripple, increased flow and less cavitation at high rpm(not much of an issue for stock). A helical gear pump takes less energy compared to a straightcut since it runs smoother(you actually feel the difference hand priming them (yes it doesn´t work on flatheads but on other brands not to be mentioned) |
02-13-2018, 01:35 PM | #31 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
rotorwrench wrote; My old 49 thru 51 Lincoln/Mercury O/H Manual states 55 PSI for oil pump output pressure. This should be the same for all of the 8BA family of engines.
The Lincoln 337 pump is a monster, much bigger than the 8BA. And I use one of these in my 21 stud, have done for years, in conjunction with stock front mounted relief valve. I'm not saying its right or wrong, but to answer the original posters query, yes, you can run an 8BA pump in a 221.
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02-13-2018, 02:32 PM | #32 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
The 337 oil pressure output was listed differently in the manual. It's normal output pressure was listed as 45-55 PSI.
To Add about gears: The straight gear pump would have the same displacement as the spiral gear pump if the dimensions of the gears and case were the same volumetrically. Output should be the same in this case. Spiral gears tend to have a thrust load due to the shape where straight gears don't but spiral gears tend to be more quiet in operation where straight gears tend to make some noise. The thrust loading may have been an important factor in the design using the spiral gears depending on where the ports are in the pump case. It may have also just been more quiet. |
02-13-2018, 04:33 PM | #33 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
The relief valve on an early block is just dumping oil. However the relief valve on the oil pump is not dumping oil its recirculating it into the inlet /suction side of the gears. The actual dumping in the pump is just feeding the gears in effect.
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02-13-2018, 07:37 PM | #34 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
Interesting stuff.. From what I'm understanding even though the later 80 lb really doesn't put out that much pressure - volume[?] when all is said and done its not that much different than the earlier ones, slightly higher maybe, but IS there much in it ..?
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07-12-2021, 04:06 AM | #35 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
I am fascinated by this chain of discussion, I found my oil filter on 1935 Roadster was on the underside of the floorpan and the OUT connected to the pump. I have now fitted a Hildebrandt filter housing on the firewall and think it better to connect the pump hose to the filter IN port. Am I wrong? Do I need change the pump? My block is a 1942 -1948 Mercury Core & Crank Bore 3.370inch x 4-inch Stroke = 4686cc 285 cu.in.
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07-12-2021, 08:15 AM | #36 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
My experience was this. Pro rebuilt 8BA with new Mellings 80 # pump had no better oil presure than before rebuild. Also got a new cam gear from Melling which was marked wrong throwing valve timing off. New isn't necessarily better !!!
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07-12-2021, 08:39 AM | #37 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
I have a mellings 80# in a 221 with by-pass filter that returns to top of timing cover. Runs 50# cold and 35# hot with 5-20 Mobile 1. No problems. Using stock relief valve.
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07-12-2021, 08:57 AM | #38 | |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
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07-12-2021, 10:09 PM | #39 |
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Re: 80# Oil Pump Upgrade
Stock engine - stock pump.
Modified engine with more bearing clearance and bigger bearing loads - bigger pump. M15 or equivalent. The 8ba oils the cam and distributor drive gears through an oil hole in the nose of the cam which is fed from the front cam journal. A stock flathead oil pump can easily be made to show over 100 lb. on the gauge if all you want is a gauge reading. You won't go any faster that way. |
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