Inserts vs. Babbitt?

[daveymc29]

So, now that I have to make a choice on the rebuild of my engine, which way to go? Inserts and full oiling or just stick with the babbitt and hope that outlasts me? Any reasoned thinking out there on this subject?
Thanks in advance, Daveymc29

[George Miller]

Depends if you find some one who knows how to do Babbitt the right way. If done right it will out last most of us. But there does not seem to be to many left that do it right.

For me I use inserts, because I can do all the work myself. Started using inserts in the 80 ts.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Hi Davey,

In reply no. 2, George is 100% correct.

Maybe think of it as being similar to a person going to a hospital for brain or heart surgery.

For the most favorable "long lasting" results, the guy handling the knife is of utmost importance.

[Brian T]

I hope this is not considered Hi Jacking the thread so please excuse me if it is, I have read recent posts and opinions regarding this, I am having to make the choice soon, so what would the price difference between the 2 repairs at a shop that uses both methods.
Thanks in advance.

[Kevin in NJ]

The facts:

Either done right will last a long time--
Just that 'done right' clause.

Babbitt will fail gracefully and generally let you go for quite a while before it quites.
Babbitt will eat dirt as this is what the A engine was designed to do and keep running for tens of thousands of miles.

If the insert goes bad it may be quick and you will have to get a tow.
A bad insert is also likely to damage the crank and the block. Both can be repaired at a cost.
Inserts do not like dirt and will be more likely to have issues because of it.

It still boils down to a paying the bucks for a person that has a reputation for a job that runs right and keeps running.

Personally, I believe you are better off with babbitt.

[daveymc29]

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I went to a shop in the Central Valley of CA. Just in round figures it seemed an inserted and full oiling system would be about 1000 to 1500 more than their counter weighted, balanced babbitted rebuild with the "B" cam grind. I told them to do the latter, but am having some second thoughts, however I got 25K or so out of the original that may or may not have been rebuilt. There was a strong indication to me that I may have been sold a piece that was not re-babbitted, just refitting of the bearings, (re-shimmed.)

[Mitch//pa]

why not insert without pressure...
thats the way i go plus i rather not be held hostage by the babbitt gods
think modern

[Duffy1]

Suggest you do a search on babbitts . I have read these threads and post on babbitts and it is very clear that pouring and machining babbitt takes a tremendous amount of time,knowledge,craftsmanship,skill,etc.,etc,. . There are only a few of these craftsmen left today. Babbitt is a one shot deal . You either do it right the first time or start from scratch and do it a second time. For these reasons most big time engine builders are going to inserts . More variables putting in babbitt vs inserts.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

One thing to consider has much to do with the type crankshaft being used, and who will be the mechanic.

First, most Babbitt will need adjusting as it wears, and if the crankshaft has counterweights you will not be able to remove the rear main cap with the engine still in the car thus requiring the engine to be removed. If this task needs to be outsourced, factor in that cost against the insert up-grade costs.

Second, I think it also depends on who is doing the Babbitt adjusting. If this task will be hired out to a mechanic, the costs associated with this operation is offset by the up-charge to install the inserts.

[daveymc29]

Thanks, seems I'm probably going to stick with babbitt. Funny how age has made so much difference. About twenty years ago I had never seen under the hood of a Model A. Had a bad engine in my machine so I went to a friends house and he was to help me pul and install this engine. He got called to work, I was miles out in the country in a strange shop, strange tools and first time under the hood. I had the new engine in before he got home, just in time to hear me start it up. This time it was stripped of head and pan, radiator removed and it took me half a day to remove it from that point, in my own garage with better tools and non-fixed lift. More cuts and bruises also.
Cheers, Daveymc29

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by daveymc29

Thanks, seems I'm probably going to stick with babbitt. Funny how age has made so much difference. About twenty years ago I had never seen under the hood of a Model A. Had a bad engine in my machine so I went to a friends house and he was to help me pul and install this engine. He got called to work, I was miles out in the country in a strange shop, strange tools and first time under the hood. I had the new engine in before he got home, just in time to hear me start it up. This time it was stripped of head and pan, radiator removed and it took me half a day to remove it from that point, in my own garage with better tools and non-fixed lift. More cuts and bruises also.
Cheers, Daveymc29

Hey Davey,
Well, you certainly are doing the correct thing by asking/seeking advice here. And, it doesn't cost a cent,eh !
IMO, a lot of guys are in same situation as you and watch these threads for same reasons as you asked. The problem is that the darn answers, to you questions, are not that easy either. As in , some areas do not have the 'artists' that can do either/or poured Babbitt or Babbitt inserts. So what do you tell a guy who asks such question in that case ? If I lived in the area of a couple of our skilled fellow barners, I know that I'd have had them do full inserts !

But, take my current case as example of poured Babbitt rods/mains. I bought a B block from an old timer who since died. He had run the B with OHV head and pressure. At some point he had rebabbitted both rods/mains...and that's where I came in. I got a C crank from a fordbarn 'buddy' and am using the rods/mains, as they are... WITHOUT shims...0015 clearance. Crap shoot ? Maybe, but I've been convinced that it would be a big waste to discard what I already had. And, I could not locate a nearby 'artist' who could do the inserts ! Shipping engine...no thanks, not with my experiences and Murphy hanging about !

We'll see how it comes out. As said...it's old technology, and although I'm near old as the engine, my tech is not great. Hey, I've heard that poured Babbitt Bs have run over 150 mph on salt using same setup as I'm working !

[Bader]

John cook,chandler arizona,Babbitt and inserts does nice work, call Sam at az model a for his number.

[Growley bear]

I agree with George in Post #2.

Chet

[Glenn C.]

In my opinion a good babbiting job, and line boring are difficult to find, along with reasonable shipping costs. With that in mind, it is my opinion we are somewhat being forced into using inserts, along with pressure oiling.
A good type of carb filter, along with the use of a full flow oil filtration system, should also be used on inserted engines.

[Brother Hesekiel]

Try to figure out which automaker today still uses Babbitt, and if you find out nobody does, try to figure out if it's because it's too expensive to pour or because it's inferior.

If you putter around like the Waltons at about 20 to 25mph, competently poured Babbitt certainly will do the job for years to come. If you drive faster, rev higher, consider a higher compression head, full inserts are a no-brainer in my book. It's like still using non-detergent 30 grade oil. Yes, your engine will run "fine" with it, but it's not state-of-the-art anymore.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Sounds like a topic for a U.S. Supreme Court Decision; or maybe have it addressed at the next UN Assembly -- just as well to include a decision on whitewall tires.

[George Miller]

Even with inserts, you need to find a machinist that knows what he or she is doing. Some think it is a simple task. It might look simple but it takes experience to do it right. For example if you are using a boring machine that was made for Babbitt and the boring bar is running out in the center lets say .010. now you use the two centering cones on number one and number 3 main bearing. then you clamp down your 3 boring bar supports. You will now have a center main that is off the center line .005 . That will make for a nice bind when you try to turn the crank. The crank will have to bend as it is turning.
Plus you better hope the guy who bored it last bored it on the right center line, if not your cam gear will not have the right back lash. The crank needs to be on the original center line like it was from the factory. There is more but that is a start.

[PC/SR]

Insert bearings are not better than babbitt, they are just easier and cheaper to mass produce, and easily replaceable.
Now that I think about it, how did Henry do it? At the height of production in 1929 he was turning out over 100,000 engines a month (x 4 for rods). That is a lot of guys pouring babbitt and line boring. Popping in inserts would sure be easier.

[peters180a/170b]

if you read about old HENRY he was a cheap ass ! that's why he was pouring babbit and not inserts. I went with inserts [ twice] 2 motors/2 cars and never looked back

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Brother Hesekiel

Try to figure out which automaker today still uses Babbitt, and if you find out nobody does, try to figure out if it's because it's too expensive to pour or because it's inferior.
.

What material is used to make an bearing insert?

[colin1928]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

What material is used to make an bearing insert?

Which year are you interested in
it seams to change every 10 years and every manufacturer is a little differnt
20 years ago most were steel back then copper and finished with white metal
today steel back with aluminium or straight aluminium

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Which year are you interested in
it seams to change every 10 years and every manufacturer is a little differnt
20 years ago most were steel back then copper and finished with white metal
today steel back with aluminium or straight aluminium

The ones used in the Model A.

[colin1928]

Good question no info on AER web site

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Good question no info on AER web site

You mentioned white metal which is babbit on those 20 years ago. Has the technology changed for the ones sold now by the vendors for the
model A?

[Purdy Swoft]

I prefer babbit, thats original or older babbitt that is made from the proper mix of metals.. These bearings are adjustable and can last a lifetime. One of my engines has been very dependable for the past 54 years and it had already run 31 years before I got it. All of my engines have babbitt bearings . Depending on the road, we usually drive 50 mph or more. Some of my engines are modified with higher compression heads, 3/4 race cams, oversized pistons, dual updraft carbs, port work lighter flywheels and other mods. I have never had a babbitt failure with any of my engines. I don't run the engines on the race track but run them as fun drivers. I'm not a believer in heavy counterbalanced crankshafts and have never had a problem using original model A crankshafts . I set bearing clearance at .002 . I've never seen a too tight engine run for very long or fast.

[George Miller]

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I had a original 1930 Townsedan that had 85000 original miles. The engine had never been rebuilt. I ground the valves and adjusted the bearings. The bearings were not that loose. It ran like a top and was one of the smoothies Model A engine that I ever drove. So original Babbitt was good, but where do you get it done like that now. Maybe Herm he seems to know Babbitt.
But for me it is easier to use inserts.

[J and M Machine]

George Miller: Babbitt work like this.?
Naturally we're a proponent of babbitted bearings because we know how to do the work properly.
Babbitt bearings are more forgiving than the inserted bearings due to the fact that Model A engines aren't pressurized.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by colin1928

Which year are you interested in
it seams to change every 10 years and every manufacturer is a little differnt
20 years ago most were steel back then copper and finished with white metal
today steel back with aluminium or straight aluminium

Yeah, I believe that inserts have been made of different running surfaces. I just checked a flathead which looks to be copper inserts ('40 V12) .

[peters180a/170b]

today i spoke to a old time racer of Model "A"s in Danbury Conn. track in the good old days. I am trying to buy 1 of the very many trophies he won which are very cool.Dan is also into restoring old airplanes from the 30's and 40's. He just finishes a 1940 Cub Coupe training plane which uses some Model "A" parts .I ask him today as a Model "A" Ford racer and plane rebuilder which would you use: ? BEEN THERE DONE THAT [ INSERTS] that was his answer. He just won BEST of class at a plane meet 3 weeks ago in P.A. [that's 1 engine you don't want to make a mistake rebuilding ! ]there are no curbs to pull over...l.o.l.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

if you read about old HENRY he was a cheap ass ! that's why he was pouring babbit and not inserts. I went with inserts [ twice] 2 motors/2 cars and never looked back

Now where did THAT come from? He was far cry away from being "cheap". Go spend some time actually studying what all he accomplished, and what all he owned and you will see he was NOT a cheap person!

Henry on the other hand was a shrewd -yet self-centered businessman that was power hungry. When you study what all he owned during that time outside of just a car assembly company you quickly realize he did not get that way by being lazy or by not spending money. If he had of been cheap, there are many components on the Model-A that could have been manufactured much cheaper to save a $$.

[Purdy Swoft]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Yeah, I believe that inserts have been made of different running surfaces. I just checked a flathead which looks to be copper inserts ('40 V12) .

Some of the mid forties Ford flathead V8s used full floating bronze rod bearing inserts

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Now where did THAT come from? He was far cry away from being "cheap". Go spend some time actually studying what all he accomplished, and what all he owned and you will see he was NOT a cheap person!

Henry on the other hand was a shrewd -yet self-centered businessman that was power hungry. When you study what all he owned during that time outside of just a car assembly company you quickly realize he did not get that way by being lazy or by not spending money. If he had of been cheap, there are many components on the Model-A that could have been manufactured much cheaper to save a $$.

How much did the "cheap skate" spend on Fordlandia?Doing things the simplest way with no waste is not being cheap. Frugal yes cheap no.

[James Rogers]

Just how many engines were built from 1908 till 1935 that had inserts? Name 2.

[Kurt in NJ]

from a 1935 chilton
Audburn lists bronze backed main bearings---renewable from below
Cadillac --bronze backed --renewable from below---by 1930 steel backed for some
Chyrsler 75, 28-29, bronze backed, pull engine, but no hand fitting or reaming
Durant 1929 --pull engine but no fitting or reaming
Grahm paige --renewable from below

Oldsmobile f33 1933 --mains, steel backed, renewable from below, rods removable babbitt lined steel shells

Nash 1220,(1934) mains, steel backed, renewable from below, rods, removeable steel backed babbitt lined shells

Hupmobile, 6 cylinder 1934, mains bronze backed, removable from below, rods, removable steel backed babbitt

I remember taking apart a Franklin engine and it had a form of inserts, it was before 1928, to me they seemed like solid babbitt ---but they had the look like they required fitting , the cars that list "renewable from below" to me indicate modern style precision fitted bearing inserts, but although I didn't look up all the cars it seems that modern type steel backed precision inserts appeared in 1933- 1934 in several cars for rods, mains before them

[Tom Wesenberg]

Studebaker was very early in the use of insert bearings.

[peters180a/170b]

My 1935 Chevy Standard coupe has babbit only on the piston rods. The Filling Station ,Chevrolet & GMC Reproduction parts house :Replace your worn out babbit rod with NEW "MODERN" style insert bearing. The key word here is "MODERN" Style. Babbit cost is $145.00 per rod..... 1916 to 1936 engines... $65.00 for inserts.... If babbit was as good as some say we would still have it today on our "MODERN" cars..

[colin1928]

Surprizing enough Babbitt is still used to today but only in high performance engines such as race cars and engines making 500-600 hp +they use a Trimetal bearings that have a steel back then copper and finally a very thin coat of Babbitt the reason for Babbitt is under high load the with deflections some surface contact can happen that's is when soft Babbitt can survive for short time (say a race meeting) limiting damage to the crank
Why not Babbitt as in our A models it must be thin due to cyclic loading fatigue
the thicker the Babbitt it will suffer more fatigue
Most race engine builders prefer the trimetal bearings over the bimetal steel and SI-AL found in modern production cars

[Ron W]

Racers that I am aware of using "Babbitt" lined shells change them after every meet. They are forgiving but do not last long. Ron W

[hardtimes]

Hey Kevin,
Wow, nice research info...thanks for sharing !

Those companies that you list, for the most part, seem to be higher end ($) product.
That is ,IMO, powerful evidence for 'babbitted or otherwise insert use.
So, guess that settles IT,eh ...no , whatever ..lol

[ABento]

All arguements aside in this thread,the cost of either is about the same for installation,then you have the problem of pressure oiling if you go full insert,just for sake of conversation when the Miller over head came out in 1931,or I believe it was the Miller, all they had at the time was babbit,when hopped up they'll put out 140 to 180 horses with some work and the babbit held,that being alot more of a beating than we'll put on these stockers.

[Purdy Swoft]

As far as pressure oiling, some use inserted rods and mains with dip oiling for the rods and the original oil slinger at the rear main. Pressure oiling isn't necessarily required. As for babbitt, Back in the day, there was diesel babbitt that could withstand compression ratios of 14 to 1 and higher.

[Mike V. Florida]

For years rebuilders used inserts from a variety of sources. I used to have a list of the inserts and what vehicles they were from for different crank diameters but I might have lost it when the computer crashed a few years ago. I mention this because I wonder if the block work needed for inserts is different for the different inserts. If one needs new inserts what are the odds that they can be easily replaced?

[George Miller]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

For years rebuilders used inserts from a variety of sources. I used to have a list of the inserts and what vehicles they were from for different crank diameters but I might have lost it when the computer crashed a few years ago. I mention this because I wonder if the block work needed for inserts is different for the different inserts. If one needs new inserts what are the odds that they can be easily replaced?

The ones I used for the mains were 4-2965-cp you bored the engine 1.7705 that is the same as the new inserts. But you have to put in a new notch for the bearing tang.

I think there were 3 different bearings that used 1.7705 there were about 3 more that used a different size. So I guess your odds are about 50-50

[Kurt in NJ]

I have an old listing--A main bearings
international harvester, 1456sb --1.063 width, std shaft size 1.623, bore size1.7760
british leyland(rod bearing)4-2956cp, width .880, shaft1.6254, bore1.7705
onan (rod bearing)3180sp, width 1.00, shaft 1.6252, bore1.7505
standard motors (rod bearing)4-65290ra, width .690, shaft1.6250, bore1.770

I know the british leyland bearings are for early 60s mg midgets ---they wern't the most reliable bearings in their original application, they would crack in 1/2 in the midgets, the other bearings are all listed in my 1965 bearing catalouge ---so they are for at least 50 year old engines

The AER bearings list a bore size of 1.7705 ---so there is a good chance that a block set up for the british leyland, or std motors bearings could be easily modified to take the made for the "A" AER inserts

[peters180a/170b]

Doug Bruce , N.Y. 1-607- 849-3454 . ANYONE THAT KNOWS ABOUT INFO ON THIS ENGINE???? 1932 /33/34 Ford block 4 banger...Someone said its a Engine for time trials [one shot]. Aluminum front timing cover with oil pump ,, DOUBLE piston rods ,,, 4 bolt bearing caps ,, has headers , Mallory Dual point dist. and Mallory coil...there is a hole in the fly wheel housing so you can set the timing and a weird tranny he thinks might be for a Lincoln Zephyr/// anyone into early speed stuff please give him a call...thanks ...thanks

[FrankWest]

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Originally Posted by daveymc29

So, now that I have to make a choice on the rebuild of my engine, which way to go? Inserts and full oiling or just stick with the babbitt and hope that outlasts me? Any reasoned thinking out there on this subject?
Thanks in advance, Daveymc29

Don't forget Thick bacon slices. During the depression a farmer needed new bearings, could not afford anything, so used very thick bacon slabs and got his car running again. Says a lot about resourcefulness. As his engine warmed up, I wonder if it smelled like bacon was cooking.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Don't forget Thick bacon slices. During the depression a farmer needed new bearings, could not afford anything, so used very thick bacon slabs and got his car running again. Says a lot about resourcefulness.

Geez this one just came out of the mothballs!!


Personally I cannot imagine that story about bacon being anything more than an old wives' tale as it would not take very long for a strip of bacon to be compressed enough to squeeze it out of a bearing journal. Even leather did not last more than a few miles or so. Definitely not saying that either did not get tried, but even babbitt will get pounded out, and a soft material such as leather or bacon would not be long for this world in such an application.

[Badpuppy]

Red Green would wrap the journals in duct tape. Wouldn't smell so good, tho.

[Synchro909]

I'd like to ask one question and make one statement ;
There have been billions of cars made world wide since about the 1940's. How many of them used White Metal???
I used shells in the engines I built for outback touring. Only one has pressure feed to a bearing (the middle main at 25 psi). All other bearings are lubricated as Henry did it and I have not had a bearing failure yet. These motors work hard as I tow the camper (about a ton) at 50 mph all day every day for weeks on end. Pressure oiling is NOT neccessary with shell bearings. I do run an oil filter though.

[updraught]

So.... pressurising the center main is to stop the babbit being whipped out due to the, shall we say.... unsmoothness of the crank (?).

My next question, here it comes.

Does this not happen with inserts?

[FrankWest]

How involved in the machine work required to convert from Babbitt to Inserts.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Geez this one just came out of the mothballs!!


Personally I cannot imagine that story about bacon being anything more than an old wives' tale as it would not take very long for a strip of bacon to be compressed enough to squeeze it out of a bearing journal. Even leather did not last more than a few miles or so. Definitely not saying that either did not get tried, but even babbitt will get pounded out, and a soft material such as leather or bacon would not be long for this world in such an application.

No one said the how successful bacon was for bearings, just that some desperate farmer tried it. People try all shorts of things in a pinch!

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by updraught

So.... pressurising the center main is to stop the babbit being whipped out due to the, shall we say.... unsmoothness of the crank (?).

My next question, here it comes.

Does this not happen with inserts?

If any bearing is going to fail in a Model A, it is the middle main bearing. My motors all run a counterbalanced crankshaft and run smooth enough. The last thing I want is for a bearing to fail out the back of Timbucktoo on a rainy day. Does it happen with inserts? I don't know and I don't want to be the one to find out!

[Tom Wesenberg]

Adding counterweights or buying a counterweighted crankshaft is the best thing you cab do to extend the life of the main bearings. The faster the engine runs, the more important counterweights become.

[vernon]

Originally Posted by Kurt in NJ

from a 1935 chilton
Audburn lists bronze backed main bearings---renewable from below
Cadillac --bronze backed --renewable from below---by 1930 steel backed for some
Chyrsler 75, 28-29, bronze backed, pull engine, but no hand fitting or reaming
Durant 1929 --pull engine but no fitting or reaming
Grahm paige --renewable from below

Oldsmobile f33 1933 --mains, steel backed, renewable from below, rods removable babbitt lined steel shells

Nash 1220,(1934) mains, steel backed, renewable from below, rods, removeable steel backed babbitt lined shells

Hupmobile, 6 cylinder 1934, mains bronze backed, removable from below, rods, removable steel backed babbitt

I remember taking apart a Franklin engine and it had a form of inserts, it was before 1928, to me they seemed like solid babbitt ---but they had the look like they required fitting , the cars that list "renewable from below" to me indicate modern style precision fitted bearing inserts, but although I didn't look up all the cars it seems that modern type steel backed precision inserts appeared in 1933- 1934 in several cars for rods, mains before them

Dodge Brothers were inserts from day one.
Vern

[Corley]

Here's the thing though... When an insert bearing wears, it goes through the very thin layer of bearing material, now what is the crank running in. typically, first a thin layer of bronze, then the steel backing. Steel on steel, not so good for the crank. It then seizes, and turns the insert in the block, not so good for the block.

When a babbit bearing wears that same amount, the crank is still running in, well, babbit. No crank seizing, so no real crank or block damage.

Both were fine until massive wear occured, but then the difference shows up. So, why the switch to inserts for all the mfgs? Easy. No hand fitting required. Cheaper mfg process. It can all be automated, saving labor costs, but more importantly, requiring a lower caliber labor force, which means even lower yet labor costs. Like most things, it is all about $$.

In an engine that is well maintained, with regular oil changes, either should perform well. If not well maintained, you better not let those bearings get too worn before replacing inserts, or major damage can result.

Probably in model A heyday times, babbit had an edge, but not any longer. Just what I think, no facts have been intentionally harmed in this writing.

[wmws]

With well done babbitt bearings is there any rule of thumb as to when you should check them for clearance. Assuming they have not been abused by lugging and oil changed about every 500 miles.

[Ernie Vitucci]

Good Morning all...If your engine is running nice and quiet and you change your oil every 500 miles...and you check the torque on your head once a year...and you check the out going oil with a little strainer...and there are no bits of metal coming out with the oil...then leave the engine alone, drive it gently...enjoy it and it will last a long time.


When rebuilding time comes, find a good local rebuilder or go to the major suppliers who all offer rebuilt engines on an exchange basis. If you do not belong to a local club, then contact a couple at the time you need an engine rebuilt. They will know who does Babbitt and or Inserts with a high degree of quality. Ernie in Arizona

[ryanheacox]

I agree with Corley. Tearing my engine down I found a shot center main, cracked rear main and one of the rods missing a large chunk of babbit. The crank was still perfectly fine and only needed polishing, kept it at .010 under. The babbit did a great job of saving the crank.

Something tells me if I had inserts things would have been worse. Just my opinion of course.

[Bud]

Is it possible to drop the rear main bearing cap to adjust shims in a B engine with a BB counterweighted crankshaft or is it necessary to pull the engine?

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by vernon

Dodge Brothers were inserts from day one.
Vern

Yes, they were inserts, but they were all babbitt lined with about .030 thousandths thick babbitt, with a standard main insert.

A babbitt bearing, is a babbit bearing. It is either a poured in rod babbitt bearing, or a poured in insert in a babbitt rod.

Same with mains, poured in block babbitt mains, or poured babbitt, in insert, in the mains.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

What material is used to make an bearing insert?

Steel, Bronze, or solid Babbitt.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

You mentioned white metal which is babbit on those 20 years ago. Has the technology changed for the ones sold now by the vendors for the
model A?

You can still get Babbitt lined Modern inserts.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by hardtimes

Yeah, I believe that inserts have been made of different running surfaces. I just checked a flathead which looks to be copper inserts ('40 V12) .

If your bearings look like copper, that means that the outer layer of metal in the bearing is getting thin. The copper is put on before the babbitt layer, and there may be another layer on some before the babbitt. They have tried every combination.

Ford tried Copper-Lead, which didn't work out.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

Studebaker was very early in the use of insert bearings.

Chevy 4's, 1912

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

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Originally Posted by peters180a/170b

My 1935 Chevy Standard coupe has babbit only on the piston rods. The Filling Station ,Chevrolet & GMC Reproduction parts house :Replace your worn out babbit rod with NEW "MODERN" style insert bearing. The key word here is "MODERN" Style. Babbit cost is $145.00 per rod..... 1916 to 1936 engines... $65.00 for inserts.... If babbit was as good as some say we would still have it today on our "MODERN" cars..

1953 Chevy rod, still was a Babbitt poured rod, and were from 1912, to 1953. Inserts for Chevy Rods, was only after 1953 at some point, and you had to send the rods to the factory, to get machined to fit. From 1912, through 1936, inserts were never available. The 216's were the only ones.

If babbitt cost was listed as 145.00, that would have to have been after, 1953.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Purdy Swoft

As far as pressure oiling, some use inserted rods and mains with dip oiling for the rods and the original oil slinger at the rear main. Pressure oiling isn't necessarily required. As for babbitt, Back in the day, there was diesel babbitt that could withstand compression ratios of 14 to 1 and higher.

Diesel Marine, with 85% Tin, 10% Antiomony, and 5%Copper is used in, salt water and other marine, or hard to lubricate applications, as it has good wear qualities. It is made mostly for ship Drive shafts.

Most of all new engines came with Grade, No. 11

We use that, and Grade No. 2.

Ford Babbitt, we use sometimes, but it machines dusty.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by Mike V. Florida

For years rebuilders used inserts from a variety of sources. I used to have a list of the inserts and what vehicles they were from for different crank diameters but I might have lost it when the computer crashed a few years ago. I mention this because I wonder if the block work needed for inserts is different for the different inserts. If one needs new inserts what are the odds that they can be easily replaced?

I would say yes, Mr. Mike.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Don't forget Thick bacon slices. During the depression a farmer needed new bearings, could not afford anything, so used very thick bacon slabs and got his car running again. Says a lot about resourcefulness. As his engine warmed up, I wonder if it smelled like bacon was cooking.

I don't think Bacon slices, were ever used, they would have a tendency to
" squeal ", as the crank turned.

But I know a slice of a leather belt was used to get the car home.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by updraught

So.... pressurising the center main is to stop the babbit being whipped out due to the, shall we say.... unsmoothness of the crank (?).

My next question, here it comes.

Does this not happen with inserts?

On a Model A, it always will happen, with either, as that is the nature of the beast. It's the weight of the flywheel that puts pressure on the center main in the, block babbitt. If you can get more oil to it, the better. what really helps is a good counter balance job, and a lightened flywheel. The counter balance, and flywheel, when running, always tries to force the shaft to run in a straight line.

That is why, when you try to save the old babbitt, that is not in perfect Alignment, or a new babbitt job, like George Miller, explained about, you will have vibration, and can brake a crank.

Herm.

[Kohnke Rebabbitting]

Originally Posted by vernon

Dodge Brothers were inserts from day one.
Vern

The inserts of the past, have nothing to do with how they are made today. They are all together different.

Herm.

[updraught]

Corley, thanks for the explanation.

I can see why an oil filter is important with inserts. Best to avoid them wearing out.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by Corley

In an engine that is well maintained, with regular oil changes, either should perform well. If not well maintained, you better not let those bearings get too worn before replacing inserts, or major damage can result.

Probably in model A heyday times, babbit had an edge, but not any longer.

Yes, I probably agree with your comments inthe first paragraph, -and will abstain from agreeing with you on your second point. One of the issues that I have seen come through my shop is the aftermath of failed insert bearing conversions. The sales pitch that we all have heard was when a block is converted, it allows the hobbyist to change inserts in his own garage as opposed to depending on a machine shop for the repairs. By theory, this makes total sense however in real-world scenario, just as mentioned above, when the thin layer of babbitt as worn away, the crank is now riding on a much harder surface which creates friction and often times rolls a bearing. What tends to happen when a bearing spins or rolls inside of the main journal is the cap becomes distorted. This is generally not detectable by the human eye, and most home hobbyists do not have the metrology equipment needed to check this.


So when a cap has seen a bearing roll inside, it really needs to be ground and re-bored. Remember, this measurement needs to be within a tolerance of 0.0005" of perfect concentricity and in alignment from front to back. Generally speaking, this is beyond the capability of the home hobbyists, which means you are back to the machine shop anyway. And a FWIW, most of the time when a journal has a bearing spin, it causes the crank journal to become smaller than 0.030 undersized which means it has likely been ground under the original heat treating.


It should also be noted that the instances I have been involved with, the owner never actually heard the engine noise as the bearing clearance became excessive until they had the failure. I attribute this to a couple of things, -one being that the noise was so gradual over time that they just accepted it as not a problem, --and second, an older person's ears are not a 'tuned' as they once were to be able to detect something like the excessive clearance. And, most hobbyists are not that vigilant about removing the oil pan just to check the condition of the bearings just as a preventative maintenance item. At least with babbitt bearings, there is a much more forgiving and audible warning given.

Originally Posted by Bud

Is it possible to drop the rear main bearing cap to adjust shims in a B engine with a BB counterweighted crankshaft or is it necessary to pull the engine?

Bud, the answer to your question lies in which Flywheel housing you have. The stock Model-A flywheel housing with the small inspection cover will not let a rear main cap drop down low enough too clear the counterweights to be removed. The Model-B oil pan and flywheel housing were constructed to alleviate this issue.


..

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Assuming the motor has had the oil changed frequently, how often (miles) should the oil pan be dropped and -


Babbits be shimmed/wear inspected?


Inserts be wear inspected?

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Assuming the motor has had the oil changed frequently, how often (miles) should the oil pan be dropped and -


Babbits be shimmed/wear inspected?

Inserts be wear inspected?

The same question can be asked 'How long does it take to catch a fish?'


There really is not a known answer per se' simply because both have many variables. In the case of babbitt, what type/grade of babbitt was used by the rebuilder? -Was it peined in? -What was the finish like or was it burnished in? -How concentric was the crankshaft journal pin ground to?


In the case of inserts, what was the quality of the crankshaft finish and how accurately was the block line-bored?


In the case of babbitt, peining and burnishing allow the babbitt to become more dense, and the burnishing allows the babbitt to conform to the journal pin shape. This creates longevity. If a poor surface finish (looks like a handsaw's teeth under magnification) is what the babbitt looks like, then the babbitt will wear quick(er) as the crankshaft is only supported on the peaks --thus wearing quicker requiring more frequent adjustments.


In the case of insert conversions, more often than not you will find the machinists equipment is tired & worn which can cause a poor alignment issue. In modern engine applications, main journal hones that are longer than the engine block are used to ensure the journals are very straight. Unfortunately Sunnen does not make a small enough line-boring hone that will span the entire length of the A block to do all three journals at once. So if any bar deflection or set-up miscalculations during the line-boring process is/are encountered, it will prematurely wear the insert bearing.

Again, how often are most hobbyists doing routine inspections on their engines? Naturally the rebuilder wants to paint a rosy picture to their customer and they tell them it can go for a long time. Define "long time" accurately.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

The same question can be asked 'How long does it take to catch a fish?'


There really is not a known answer per se' simply because both have many variables. In the case of babbitt, what type/grade of babbitt was used by the rebuilder? -Was it peined in? -What was the finish like or was it burnished in? -How concentric was the crankshaft journal pin ground to?


In the case of inserts, what was the quality of the crankshaft finish and how accurately was the block line-bored?


In the case of babbitt, peining and burnishing allow the babbitt to become more dense, and the burnishing allows the babbitt to conform to the journal pin shape. This creates longevity. If a poor surface finish (looks like a handsaw's teeth under magnification) is what the babbitt looks like, then the babbitt will wear quick(er) as the crankshaft is only supported on the peaks --thus wearing quicker requiring more frequent adjustments.


In the case of insert conversions, more often than not you will find the machinists equipment is tired & worn which can cause a poor alignment issue. In modern engine applications, main journal hones that are longer than the engine block are used to ensure the journals are very straight. Unfortunately Sunnen does not make a small enough line-boring hone that will span the entire length of the A block to do all three journals at once. So if any bar deflection or set-up miscalculations during the line-boring process is/are encountered, it will prematurely wear the insert bearing.

Again, how often are most hobbyists doing routine inspections on their engines? Naturally the rebuilder wants to paint a rosy picture to their customer and they tell them it can go for a long time. Define "long time" accurately.

Thanks Brent,


Lots of great info as usual.


I figured the answer would be complex since I know very little on this subject and am trying to get up to speed. Am following this string since my A is in a restoration/repair shop for the winter. Motor rebuild may have to be done, and I want to make informed decisions.


Separately what I am hoping to get now is more along the lines of a very conservative estimate based on what others recommend of how often to Preventative Maintenance; check Babbitt's/shimming, and inserts. Am not looking for lifespan info.


I prefer this type of guideline since I do not have the experience, possibly hearing, to detect an issue before catastrophic failure.


If there are no general guidelines, OK, had to ask.

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Well, going at it like this, why don't you open it up after 5 yrs or 5k miles (-whichever comes first) to have a look/see. Inspect everything using a camera to document the condition of the bearing, and use Plastigauge o get a general idea of the condition. If all goes well, rinse & repeat in another 5 yrs. or 5k miles. Compare then to what it was prior and see where you are.


From my own perspective, you can be more lax on maintenance if you have babbitt bearings and it won't come back to haunt you as badly. Neither are very forgiving if the craftsmanship is faulty.

[30 Closed Cab PU]

Thanks, did not know enough 1st time and did not ask the right questions. Your response is what I was hoping for.


Am hoping the restorer will allow me to inspect once the pan is dropped, and educate me on the lower end of the motor - Babbitt shimming/inspection, etc. I also agree, am leaning towards Babbitt - do not want to add oil filter, pressurized oiling, and is more forgiving, etc. Also have noted your advice about craftsmanship, will ask appropriate questions when time to rebuild the motor.


Most likely a rebuilt motor will vastly outlast me, am 65 and I am not a high mileage driver.