Troubleshooting Transmission '47 pickup

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by cas3

gigantic Baldor grinder, and a gigantic Wilton bullet vice...you are somebody GB!
Shop space looks great to me, I only have one comment, no such thing as too much insulation. In case you misread, no such thing as too much insulation. perhaps you misunderstood, no such thing as too much insulation.

When I rebuilt after the fire, I bought used freezer panels. Cheap, 9x4, sliced them up to fit between the studs, sealed all edges with spray foam in the can. 5 1/2" thick, shop has never been below about 49-50 even with no heat while I am out of town here at the north pole!

Carry on.

Skip, when you get through your first 'unfrozen ground' winter in Kansas you will see that you really did leave the north pole in your rearview mirror. I have worked 40-50 hours a week for 39 years in my cabinet shop with R-19 in the ceiling and R-zilch in the walls and single pane barn sash for windows. I'm way too lazy to remove all that junk from the walls , insulate them, panel the walls, build shelves etc and put all the junk back. I just now went on the porch and noted the temperature at 10 pm as being 49 degrees F. Yes it's a mild, rainy night and we do get maybe five or ten nights a year in the teens. If I were starting fresh with a new building I'm pretty sure I'd insulate the walls to save on firewood, but dang I got a lotta junk nailed up and in between those studs. And yes, I came across the old machinest selling out his shop just in time! The wilton was attached to this steel table the guy had built so I had to take it too. Edit: Sheesh, I'm using up all my shop thread pictures on this so called transmission thread......

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Skip, when you get through your first 'unfrozen ground' winter in Kansas you will see that you really did leave the north pole in your rearview mirror. I have worked 40-50 hours a week for 39 years in my cabinet shop with R-19 in the ceiling and R-zilch in the walls and single pane barn sash for windows. I'm way too lazy to remove all that junk from the walls , insulate them, panel the walls, build shelves etc and put all the junk back. I just now went on the porch and noted the temperature at 10 pm as being 49 degrees F. Yes it's a mild, rainy night and we do get maybe five or ten nights a year in the teens. If I were starting fresh with a new building I'm pretty sure I'd insulate the walls to save on firewood, but dang I got a lotta junk nailed up and in between those studs. And yes, I came across the old machinest selling out his shop just in time! The wilton was attached to this steel table the guy had built so I had to take it too. Edit: Sheesh, I'm using up all my shop thread pictures on this so called transmission thread......

[flatford8]

Milk can is just the right height for a stool ain’t it?........HEY!......how about some hot coals out if the wood stove......in the milk can.....for a nice warm seat!.......that idea is all for you Bud!.......Mark

[51504bat]

Love the C clamp to hold the chain hoist chain out of the way. As well as everything else.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by flatford8

Milk can is just the right height for a stool ain’t it?........HEY!......how about some hot coals out if the wood stove......in the milk can.....for a nice warm seat!.......that idea is all for you Bud!.......Mark

Sorry Mark, That milk can has already been pressed into service. It is now a combination heat shield/ceiling support for the 10' of metalbestos pipe through the attic and roof. I flipped the can on it's head, torched out an 8" hole through the bottom (O.D. of the stainless metalbestos). I then welded two pieces of angle about midway up that now sit on the plywood attic floor. The weight of the 8" stainless chimney pipe is now supported (and centered) in the neck of the milk can which is about 6 1/2" ID. This allows the crimped end of the single wall 6" black pipe to be inserted into the bottom of the insulated pipe. It's like it was made for the purpose. I have a dandy office chair I got at the dump that will be the new workbench stool after I weld in a pipe extension. The upholstery is a lovely gray which pairs quite fashionably with the surrounding machinery.

[petehoovie]

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Originally Posted by GB SISSON

Sorry Mark, That milk can has already been pressed into service. It is now a combination heat shield/ceiling support for the 10' of metalbestos pipe through the attic and roof. I flipped the can on it's head, torched out an 8" hole through the bottom (O.D. of the stainless metalbestos). I then welded two pieces of angle about midway up that now sit on the plywood attic floor. The weight of the 8" stainless chimney pipe is now supported (and centered) in the neck of the milk can which is about 6 1/2" ID. This allows the crimped end of the single wall 6" black pipe to be inserted into the bottom of the insulated pipe. It's like it was made for the purpose. I have a dandy office chair I got at the dump that will be the new workbench stool after I weld in a pipe extension. The upholstery is a lovely gray which pairs quite fashionably with the surrounding machinery.

[GB SISSON]

Thanks Pete! Upon closer inspection I see my kid left a sizeable gap behind the pipe... Never mind the fact that he got here to insulate before I had a chance to sister that joist I hacked out. I'll get right on that after lunch.

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by GB SISSON

When I got the pickup it had no engine or trans. I figured the 3 speed was what I would want in that vehicle. First time I drove it I knew it was geared too high in 1st. To remedy this I decided I'd one day swap in a T-9 crash box. Easiest route was to drive it 'as is' until I got around to swapping it. But every winter I just kept building something new instead. The diesel '47 tonner, the mongrel Foyota RPU, and last winter the almost stock '46 tonner with a T-9 and an H 226 six. I am very familiar with the T-9's operation and I like them but with the '46 I endeavored to build a smooth and quiet pickup, but the gear whine is very pronounced in the cab and not sure I want that in the woodie. Also my kids and grandkids enjoy the woodie so much I like to think they might make ice cream runs to town etc in the summer visits. All four of my kids drive a stick (2 boys, 2 girls) but not sure they are up to the crash box. Same for my wife. You couldn't pry the T-9 in the green tonner outa my hands, and if was just me, one would have been in the woodie in the first place. I Do have a good T-9 and a half ton mount, so I won;t say never, but for now it's most likely the 3 spd or the 5 speed. I tried ordering the book on Mac's site, but couldn't log in so I'll go old skool and call him in the morning. And Pete, good job once again with that picture!

This is what got me interested in the recent post about an NP 435 behind a flathead. Unlike 99% of most V8 enthusiasts, I like a nice granny gear, and almost never have any use for an overdrive with our 40 mph top speed on this rock. It sure looks like a good fit. With the ford style transmission I would need to reduce the input flange O.D. from 4.085 to 4.075 for a nice centered fit into the hogshead (I'm learning new words), then make a sleeve for the TOB snout. Depending on a spacer/plate or not, the 6.5" shaft might be fine and the pilot diameters are the same. The clutch fork and shaft situation seems ok from my limited knowledge of such things. The cross member would need to be addressed, and the driveshaft shortened, wich I have done sucessfully 4 or 5 times. Undoubtedly there would be more that I can't see from here. Just thought this was interesting as I'd have a sturdy truck transmission, granny low, synchromesh, quiet helical gears, ready availability and the kind of engineering problem I like to solve.

Upon re-reading this lengthy treatise, I have to ask.... I need opinions here. With my new engine at 276 cu in replacing the 221, a surfaced flywheel, new clutch, new motor mounts etc, will this new combination alleviate the need for the low first and all the clutch slipping/clutch shudder to get rolling uphill? If so, I'd just rebuild my current tranny, bolt it to the new 8ba and drive on.

[cas3]

Remind us again what gear ratio you have in the back?

[GB SISSON]

Originally Posted by cas3

Remind us again what gear ratio you have in the back?

I have no reason to doubt that it is whatever came from the factory in a '47 1/2 ton. In other words, I dunno. I run 215 85 16s all around which are about 30" tall, maybe 31". If there were multiple ratios available I would assume the high gear set.

[pistonbroke]

Hi Gary, A little off topic but I just have to copy your milk can heat shield in my new shop back here in MO. I'm just insulating and getting ready for the drywall. I was just looking at the price of metalbestos and all of its components. Thanks for saving me some change, Tim

[GB SISSON]

Tim, It's just one of those things that worked out so perfectly, I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I have had a few days with 'blast furnace' stove temps and glad for the additional 1" of air space the milk can affords.

Some thoughts on hp and torque as relates to Henry's drivetrain engineers in the late '30s. Consider the introduction of the 60 hp flathead. A special low first gear replaced the first gear that had been standard with the 85 hp. This likely mattered most to 'Hillfolk'. Skip forward to the introduction of the 3 3/16" 95/100 hp V8, did the first gear get a bit taller yet? Certainly there is a ratio or relationship between a vehicle's first gear and it's powerplant's HP./torque. Not sure what the ratio of that increase from 60 hp to 85 was, but 25% or so for the sake of argument. Now for this Sunday puzzler, think of what I am doing with this fairly heavy truck based woodie. I will be moving from a 221 cu in flattie to a 276 cu in. A good portion of the displacement increase is a direct result of longer leverage arm of that 4" stroke. Increased torque makes us hillfolk happy. While I do not know what HP my otherwise stock 276 will be making, I think it will be a substantial gain and in excess of 25% over the 221. Perhaps the stock first gear will be just right when spun by a flattie on steroids working through a smooth acting proper clutch. In closing.... Did a manual trans falcon wagon with a 170 cu in six have the same first gear ratio as one with a 289? Thanks in advance from the slopes of Mt Pickett

[cas3]

No expert here, but I think with the new motor you will have plenty of power even with the heavy body/chassis for it to make a nice driving "car". However, if you like to do any truckish activity, or even considering the hill you live on, the 4 speed may be worth your efforts. I believe you get a lower reverse with that option too.

[38 coupe]

In the 1930s and 1940s Ford did not change the transmission ratio for different engine horsepower. Transmission ratios were changed with rear axle ratios. Typical Ford axle ratios 4.11 and 3.78 got paired with the transmission 2.82 in first gear set, the common "28 tooth". The 3.54 axle ratio got paired with the transmission 3.11 in first gear set, the "29 tooth". Your half ton probably has the 3.78 and 28 tooth combination. If you have a 29 tooth transmission set available I would swap that in. Either should be fine with the big flathead you are building along with a smooth clutch.

[GB SISSON]

How can I tell what axle ratio I have? Seems years ago I jacked up one side, turned the driveshaft one revolution and watched the upside wheel? That it?

[flatford8]

Gary.....turn the wheel one revolution and count the turns of the driveshaft......about 3 3/4 turns is 3.78.....a little more than 4 is 4.11.......3 1/2 is 3.54.......Mark

[GB SISSON]

Thank you Mark. I will check it tomorrow and report back. The more info the better, as pretty soon I will have to make some decisions and the end result won't be known until I get in it and go for a drive.

[38 coupe]

I'll offer a small correction: when you jack up only one rear wheel you need to turn the wheel two times and count the driveshaft. The spider gears double wheel speed when only one wheel is turning.


I'm curious what you find. Around here I would expect 3.78:1, but typical equipment may be different in the northwest.

[GB SISSON]

Dang I didn't get to it today. My day job (hanging an 8' x 20' oil painting 8" off a living room wall) got in the way and now tomorrow morning we catch the 7am ferry over to 'America'. First order of business, an egg mcmuffin. Wednesday I work back in the shop so I will sneak down and jack up the ol' woodie and check that ratio.

[Mart]

GB. Jack up one wheel only, leave the other on the ground. Turn the raised wheel TWICE. Count the driveshaft revolutions. The number of turns equals the axle ratio.
I made a video years ago:

https://youtu.be/bkvp3Fq21ZM