Straightening up a couple of Model A's (Advice needed)

[Jyromefedx]

Hello and happy Friday all.

I'll try my darndest so respond to everybody. A little back ground to where I live and my plans for my cars will catch about half of you fine folks.
I really appreciate all of your personal stories.

So I'm a prairie boy in Saskatchewan Canada.
I have titles for both of mine and a good daily driver.

Selling and finding another really isn't a huge option around here, the market is small and has either cars in the same condition as mine but missing doors and main body components for slightly more than what I paid, or cars that are done up and have a tag of near 20,000.00 USD.

That isn't to say I don't have money to spend forwarding these cars to get back on the road, but I'm looking to do it in a way some might not find the most pure. I am looking to make this my daily driver down the line, all year long snow or shine. To accomplish that I am staying away from any hopes of this being a show car, back to Fords intended purpose of a durable everyday commuter.

My skills and parts hoarded:

I have a complete functioning drivetrain in storage (Engine to rear axle)
I have seating secured
I have a recored radiator

I plan to paint it, wire it and do the bodywork myself.

The biggest thing I am stuck on is mounting the body to the frame, not the act of it, but how to space the internal dimensions of the completely wooden B pillar spaces the door to the frame. 'Y-Blockhead's reply has helped how everything goes together to the floor of the frame with wood from factory.

This may be the part I lose a few of you. I plan on doing the floor in metal so it can last another 100 years. Does anyone know of a kit that sells a full floor kit for Murray Fordor's?

Or is there any resources out there that have the interior dimensions fully blueprinted so I could fabricate my own flooring?


If I missed anyone's question or it looks like I didn't get into detail please let me know.

More pictures to come when the three feet of snow melts.

[Model "A" Fords]

Jyrome,

Are these Canadian cars?

[rotorwrench]

Fabricating a metal subframe may be a challenge since the wood subframes were bolted to the frame with no need for body blocks like a Tudor or Coupe types. There were also steel braces that held body wood to subframe wood. It will be a lot of work either way. I've never seen anyone restore a car with a steel subframe to replace the wood but a lot of hot rodders do it.

[Gene F]

Jyromefedx don't let us all scare you off. Just know that this is not a quick thing. I restored my car, and if I had the mind to I could certainly drive it daily.

I have a 1928 Tudor, and I replaced the wood from the beltline up, and those pieces that go vertical at the rear of the door jambs. Get a kit from Snyders. Lay it out sorta and you will figure it out. I coated my wood with linseed oil using an old t-shirt. That is what Ford did. I coated it 3 times. Is there a local Model-A club near you? If so join, and the other guys in your club likely will be happy to stop over from time to time, and coach you. It's like a giant lego kit. Avoid cutting wood. I bought a good wood kit, and I never cut one piece. I did file a piece or two though, but no major changes.

The body of a Model-A just sits on the frame, and 6 or 8 bolts simply hold the coach onto the frame. Don't tighten those bolts down till you get closer to final assembly, so you can move things around a bit to align things. Yes the doors on a 4-door do have wood frames, and they will require some extra work. I never pulled my coach fully off the frame. There is a piece of fabric material between the coach and frame, and all the supply houses sell that material by the roll.

As far as a metal floor goes, you are thinking overkill. Plywood will last ages. If you are concerned use marine grade plywood. The rear flooring in my car was the crates Ford salved and used for flooring in 1928.

You can do it if you put your mind to it. Many a Model-A has been put back together with worse to start with. A lot of people quit part way through. That is the real risk in your case. I am guessing you are fairly handy, and can think things through, and/or ask questions.

The rule of thumb is that for an experienced restorer a Model-A can be restored in 1,000 hours. I can't do it in that few of hours, but maybe someone can. I would figure about 2,000 hours for your car. As far as wiring goes, the harness is a part you can buy for not a lot of money, and put on your car in about an hour. The model A only has a handfull of circuits.

Jyromefedx don't start on it unless you talk to some guys and look at it and figure out your game plan. If you start and simply disassemble it then quit then it will be junk. Get yourself a cup of coffee, a parts catalog, a clipboard, and think on it a bit. You can do it IF YOU WANT TO, I know you can.

PS; If you want it to be a streetrod this is not the car for you. I have hotrods (and a streetrod), and speak from experience.

[Gene F]

FYI, screws on the model A wood framing are often "reed & prince" head screws, not phillips heads. Like furniture screws.

[Ayers1]

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Originally Posted by gdmn852

Hello, granted you will have more in it than it’s probably worth, but that can be said for many hobbies. I am restoring a 31 roadster, and know I have more in it than it is worth, along with my 49 Buick and also a 71 MGB . But to me it’s not about cash value ,rather it’s about history. Also when you are done, you will have the pride of knowing the car inside and out. If you have the time to restore it , being able to save it from the scrap yard.

I have to admit I agree with this advice. If you don't know how to do body work then start with what you do know. Mechanical. Buy both of Les Andrew's books, the red and the green one. You will learn most of what you need to know on the mechanics from them. If you know anyone that can do bodywork see if they would be willing to help out and show you how to get started. That should take you a long ways towards your goal!
Welcome to the Forum and the Model A hobby!

[Jyromefedx]

Hello and once again, thank you for the replies.
Again, I'll try to respond to everyone.



-Ayers1

Thank you for the welcome, for my plan I have the mechanics down tickety-boo. There is one fella I've been talking to about metal fab and he's talking about $100/h, so the more I can do the better. I have a welder and I have welded, structural bodywork is new new new to me.

-Model "A" Fords
"Jyrome,

Are these Canadian cars?"

They have CA Serial Numbers


-Gene F
"If you want it to be a streetrod this is not the car for you. I have hotrods (and a streetrod), and speak from experience."

This really lead me to something, I can finally put a word to what I am looking to do, a street rod. For my first one I am not looking to restore it to factory, more just get together a drivable, reliable vehicle. Now that I have a name and baring in mind the scarcity of other options in my area, why would this be a bad candidate for a street rod?

The electrical I am plenty fine with alongside the mechanical portion, specifically a straight body to frame mounting is where my head is at.

-rotorwrench

"Fabricating a metal subframe may be a challenge since the wood subframes were bolted to the frame with no need for body blocks like a Tudor or Coupe types. There were also steel braces that held body wood to subframe wood. It will be a lot of work either way. I've never seen anyone restore a car with a steel subframe to replace the wood but a lot of hot rodders do it."

In my mind I am looking to more so make a full encased metal body as my end result. The steel braces that I seen in the prior picture have helped me understand how it went together from factory. Do you have any resources on a hotrodder doing it in a Fordor?

[Gene F]

The frame and suspension are not really compatible for a lot of torque, and that kind of weight. That is the short answer.

I have an A, a streetrod, and other collector cars. Some cars accept radical updates better than others. You can make some modifications to the A and still be ok. Stuff like changing to a 4-speed, or maybe a Model-B engine. Things like that.

Something to run around in, erands, back and forth to work...yes your A will be perfect for that. Fun too. Always nice when you get out of your A in a parking lot, and someone yells over "hey nice car". The car need not be perfect.

[CarlG]

Just going by the title or the thread, I'd send them to their corners with a promise of a good whoopin' if they didn't straighten up! (:>)

[Model "A" Fords]

Jyrome,

CA designations were from the start of Canadian Model "A" production, February 1st, 1928, until August 31st, 1929. Following the CA series numbers, a three letter designation was used with numbers from 1 to 10,000 for each letter combination, starting with CAQ 1-10,000. The letter Q being the first number on the typewriter keyboard, continuing with W ,E, R, T and so on, skipping letter A. Letter D being the last produced in February 29th, 1932.

Engine replacements from earlier vehicles placed into later cars was common, as seems to be in your case. I can give you the production date of the engines if you give me the serial numbers. Your ownership will likely have the original engine number that would date the actual car.

Canadian cars used many Robertson square socket drive screws that you may want to pass on if you build a custom car. There are also many Canadian specific parts that may not be needed. If you advertise them for sale, mention they are Canadian parts.

Have fun with your projects!

[Roger V]

I have restored several Model A's and bought one very similar to yours years ago. Even with a complete woodshop and making some other Model A body wood pieces, I sold the Fordor. Even if I bought a complete wood kit (requiring a lot of rework), I knew I could do it but also realized my enthusiasm would dwindle so agree with the majority of the responses.

[rotorwrench]

I would look for a 1931 slant windshield model if I wanted a mostly steel Fordor body.

If you do away with the flexibility of the wood frame Fordor body, it will have to be built as you go for door fit and function plus cowl to engine fairings in order to get it to look and work right. With the wood body it still has to be built back up for good fit as well but as long as it is close, the body can be shimmed to the frame to tweak it for small irregularities. Building with steel can make for a pretty rigid structure with little give in it.

I've experienced doors that come open after hitting a bump in the road when the body and doors aren't well adjusted.

[Jyromefedx]

Hello and good day to you all.

I have been investigating around and have come back to rephrase my initial question as I think I can ask it better now.

I have found a site solely dedicated to Model A Trucks, and on that site they have tons of valuable detailed drawings of floor board dimensions like the one that follows.



Are there and sites or resources that will have these kind of blueprints for a Model A Sedan?

I've also been looking at steel floor pans offered through a few Model A part suppliers, I do not know if they would help accomplish my idea as I am unsure if they are supposed to mount the woodwork on the chassis
https://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/p...4496&cat=41637

Now for replies.

-rotorwrench

"I would look for a 1931 slant windshield model if I wanted a mostly steel Fordor body..."

The door fitting part is something that has my attention, I would not put off the idea of using wood to aid with door placement and additional latches for security.


-Roger V

"I have restored several Model A's and bought one very similar to yours years ago. Even with a complete woodshop and making some other Model A body wood pieces, I sold the Fordor..."

As my job has taken me away from home, friends and family, I have a ton of free time on evening and weekends to sink my teeth into something.
I can see me viably getting one driving within a two years time once I get my floor figured out.

-Model "A" Fords

"CA designations were from the start of Canadian Model "A" production, February 1st, 1928, until August 31st, 1929. Following the CA series numbers, a three letter designation was used with numbers from 1 to 10,000 for each letter combination, starting with CAQ 1-10,000. The letter Q being the first number on the typewriter keyboard, continuing with W ,E, R, T and so on, skipping letter A. Letter D being the last produced in February 29th, 1932..."

Once the snow melts I will have to try and find the serial numbers on Chassis, only one of my cars has an engine.



-Gene F

"The frame and suspension are not really compatible for a lot of torque, and that kind of weight. That is the short answer..."

The engine I have is more modern but is by no means a power house in its state. A 2.3l Inline 4 with a 4 speed transmission at about 89hp

[Jim M]

My Model A was a find in West Virginia. Had sat in a barn for over 40 years. The mice had chewed up the upholstery and top. I put new oil and gas in and it started right up. Had a new top made and have been driving it now for over 20 years. Enjoy the hobby...you have a wonderfull piece of history.

[Jyromefedx]

Hello folks.
The snow melted enough to got out and get more pictures.
I'm still not certain of the years and makes of both cars.

Update on the flooring is I did find a youtuber who is bracing the body in a way that fits what I am looking to do.

[langus480]

Hi Jerome, great project cars. As a fellow mechanic (aviation) and fellow car enthusiast, I would start out with deciding what YOU want to do. If you want to fully restore these two cars, great. FIRST, buy these books (you'll find them very informative, and you'll begin to think 'these were written especially for me'):


https://www.amazon.com/COMPLETE-MECH.../dp/B00XABG49W

Keep in mind that what ever you choose to do will take time, but take steps that make progress. Meaning, get the necessary things to get it running and driveable.


Driveable means you can take it out and enjoy it between upgrades and improvements.


Then, maybe work on replacing the wood (they sell kits for all the wood- I know, I just bought all the wood for my pickup). You'll be able to fix the roof at that point as well and knock out two of the items at once. Then, what ever else you want to do, but the key point to take away from this is, you learn as you work on these old cars, and what ever you choose to do, you'll basically resurrect them from the scrap pile or modifiers torche for hot rodding. BUT ITS ENTIRELY UP TO YOU TO CHOOSE. If you need help and assistance reach out here on the forum, there are a great amount of talented people on here willing to help.



Lastly there are so many resourses for parts, just do an internet search for what you may need or are missing. If you need any parts that you can't find then post a request or question again here on the forum, someone will reply.


One more thing, join the local Model A club in your area. They to will help you get under way on achieving your goals.



STAY THE COURSE and KEEP THEM FLYING (down the highway anyways)!!!

[MickyD]

I agree with gdmn852. I have restored several cars in my life time and although they cost me a lot, I had fun and enjoyed doing so. Either way that you go , having a Model A is a lot of fun and some headaches.Good luck with your venture.

[Gene F]

jyromefeed - good start. Many of us have started with less. Hang in there, and take your time.

[Randy in ca]

Originally Posted by Jyromefedx

Hello folks.
...........I'm still not certain of the years and makes of both cars........

-
I believe both are Fordors manufactured by Murray. The one in you first post is a 1930 (at least the fenders,running board aprons and hood are - body not sure, need to see the firewall). The black one in your last post is a 28-29 Murray.

From the engine/serial number *CA43246* I get August 1928 production.

You've got your work cutout for sure!! Best of luck with it all.

[rotorwrench]

The center mount E-brake is a late 1928 & early 29 thing too. To do the floor out of steel, a person would need to figure out the best way to tie the body parts into the floor. If your building it to look original then the body will have to mate up with not only the doors but the cowl, hood, and radiator cowl as well. You will have to get creative for sure. A person may be able to use tudor sedan sub-rails or something of that nature to get a good floor to cowl fit and then start piecing in the doors and body shell parts. Murray and Briggs both attached the body to wood sub-rails with various support braces to hold the B pillar and C pillar around the front and back doors. It will take a lot of thought and fitting to get it all to fit well together. This is one reason that there are fewer other models on the road due to the manufacturers using so much wood in that time frame. The Dodge Brothers were the only ones that used all steel at least until they died and Walter P took it over. Ford only used the subcontractors because the fordors were not fast selling cars at the time.