Non-Detergent Motor Oil

[FrankWest]

Looking for quality Non detergent Motor oil in grades sae 30 and 40
I am using Valvoline sae 30 but think I should be using sae 40?

It seems that Non-detergent oil is sold by unusually producers.
Anyone ever use Amalie Oil??
Any suggestions.

[48 coupe]

Non det. hard to find in my area. Just go to a 90 wt. gear oil. I think that is about 50 wt. oil.

[Jeff/Illinois]

Originally Posted by 48 coupe

Non det. hard to find in my area. Just go to a 90 wt. gear oil. I think that is about 50 wt. oil.

That being said 'tongue in cheek' right?? I sure hope so

[TJ]

Why do you think that you need to use non-detergent oil?

[V8COOPMAN]

I wouldn't use AMALIE on a squeaky door hinge. First-hand experience many years ago..........baaaaaaaaaaad! DD

[GB SISSON]

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If you insist on non detergent oil, it's commonly used in air compressors. Not the tool oil, but for the crank case of the compressor itself. Most people under age 90 run conventional oil in these engines today. Some say if it's an old unopened engine that detergent oil can break loose sludge free which then clogs the screen or that the sludge was holding things together in there. The first part of that statement could be true.....

[1938 Woody Cape Cod]

Tractor Supply has it

[FrankWest]

I have an original engine car. The car was stored for 20 years without running.
When I purchased the car, I dropped the oil pan and it was not bad.. about and inch of sediment..that was like sand..not greasy sludge. I was told that that type of pan deposit is a result of running non-detergent oil. I got the car running and added a quart of MMO. Now I want to begin frequent oil changes to clean the engine.
Are you telling me that most of you guys running 80 year old engines use regular
bargan basement motor oil? I'm so confused.

[deuce_roadster]

The "detergent" in the oil is actually additives to combat the contaminants from the combustion chamber that leak past the rings and moisture. If you have already cleaned the pan, use any modern oil that you would consider a "detergent" oil. I wouldn't use "non detergent" in a lawn mower.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by deuce_roadster

The "detergent" in the oil is actually additives to combat the contaminants from the combustion chamber that leak past the rings and moisture. If you have already cleaned the pan, use any modern oil that you would consider a "detergent" oil. I wouldn't use "non detergent" in a lawn mower.

Do you run regular detergent oil in your 80 year old UN-rebuilt engine?

[Mart]

As long as you have de-sludged it, any reasonably good modern oil will be ok.

Anything from the supermarket cheapie to the most expensive one you can find will all work ok. Old engines tend to leak more than modern engines, I use that to support my likeness for oil from the cheaper end of the price scale.

Plus I'm tight.

Mart.

[51 MERC-CT]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Do you run regular detergent oil in your 80 year old UN-rebuilt engine?

Yes, I am running detergent oil in my never rebuilt 63 year old Merc. with 110K on the odometer.
Don't know what "bargain basement oil" is?

[JSeery]

In the olden days it was fairly common to clean out an engine by running it on a kerosene and light weight oil mixture for a short time. Then drain it out and use regular oil.

[B-O-B]

Not a 4 banger but I do run 10/40 detergent oil in it. Most times I get my oil from wal-mart. They seem to have the most reasonable prices. On occasion the parts stores will run a promotion ad & I will stock up then.

[Uncle Bob]

Here we go again.

DO NOT use hypoid gear lube in a crankcase just because the viscosity may be of a similar grade to what you want to use. The extreme pressure additive contains sulfur/phosphorus which will dine on your main and rod bearings.

It is true that piston type compressor oils typically don't contain detergents, and can be had in correct viscosity grades for a motor vehicle, however they are often made from naphthenic base stocks that are less thermally stable than the parafinic base stocks that every non-synthetic crankcase oil is made from.

Crankcase oil detergent/dispersants don't act like an often advertised bathroom cleaner.......they are not "scrubbing bubbles". Their primary action is to suspend contaminants (mostly by-products of combustion as correctly noted by deuce roadster). Most dislodging of built up deposits comes from fluid movement.

Putting a "quart" of MMO in an engine would probably cause much more "detergent" like action than regular motor oil since it contains a solvent.

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Old Ford flathead oil is a lot like Chicago politics.

"Vote early and vote often"
"doesn't matter who you pick, its always the same old BS"

so change your oil often, and because these old engines have fairly loose tolerences and run kind of dirty they will work fine on just about any type of clean oil...detergent/non-detergent. single viscosity vs multi-viscosity, 30w vs 50w

[zzlegend]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Do you run regular detergent oil in your 80 year old UN-rebuilt engine?

Yes. In all three of mine. Walmart, shell rotella 15-40. You cleaned the pan, now run detergent oil. Your sedan will thank you.

[FrankWest]

Sorry for bringing it up.
Now I remember the big argument about oils.
I was not asking, if I should use non-detergent. I was asking where to get it.
I know there are many positions on what to use.
One guy even recommended to use synthetics in his model A.
I just do not want to KILL my engine by using the wrong stuff. That's all.
One guy said something last time that really scarred me.
He use a special detergent oil to clean his engine and it clogged the engine up.
When he removed the pan..he found something that looked like black corn flakes and the oil pump screen was also clogged.

[trainguy]

Even modern "bargin basement oil" is better than the best oil available back in the 30s and 40s.

[Ronnie]

This is 2015 not 1915 Things change in the oil world.

[DD931]

I have a '48 F-1. As I read through the Ford service literature of that era ('48-'53) I find that detergent oil was just coming into service. Not mentioned in early literature but recommended a year or two later. It's not a matter of whether it was recommended in the 30's and 40's - it didn't exist!! When it did come on the market Ford embraced it - for the same engines we are running now. Detergent oil doesn't clean the engine - it keeps the sludge from forming. I can't imagine not using it. I run it in my original '48 engine and am happy to do so. I've used it in Model A's, V-8s and old tractor engines. Embrace the new (Late '40s!!) technology!! Same discussion for multi-viscosity (10-40) oils.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by DD931

I have a '48 F-1. As I read through the Ford service literature of that era ('48-'53) I find that detergent oil was just coming into service. Not mentioned in early literature but recommended a year or two later. It's not a matter of whether it was recommended in the 30's and 40's - it didn't exist!! When it did come on the market Ford embraced it - for the same engines we are running now. Detergent oil doesn't clean the engine - it keeps the sludge from forming. I can't imagine not using it. I run it in my original '48 engine and am happy to do so. I've used it in Model A's, V-8s and old tractor engines. Embrace the new (Late '40s!!) technology!! Same discussion for multi-viscosity (10-40) oils.

Great! That will make things a lot easier for me.
Just one last question.
Why do antique auto parts dealers like Mac's still sell the non-detergent engine oil?

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by FrankWest

Just one last question.
Why do antique auto parts dealers like Mac's still sell the non-detergent engine oil?

For the same reason politicians continue to deceive..............despite reality there's a market for it..........

[JSeery]

Same as the 600w they sell!

[rotorwrench]

Non-Detergent is for break in. I wouldn't recommend it for any other use. If you need some, Restoration Supply Company carries it and other harder to find lubricants.

[DD931]

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Mac's et. al. sell it because people buy it. That's not where you should be going for advice on how to care for your engine!! I don't know why you would use non-detergent oil for break-in, either. What property does non-detergent oil have that makes it desirable for break-in use? Wouldn't the detergent action of the detergent oil keep fine wear particles in suspension better?

[Ol' Ron]

Great thread, logic has it that keep ing all thad Gunk and ware products in suspension is great for an engine with a full flow filter. However, without the FULL flow filter we just pump all that cr*p through the bearings. Plan a head.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Great thread, logic has it that keep ing all thad Gunk and ware products in suspension is great for an engine with a full flow filter. However, without the FULL flow filter we just pump all that cr*p through the bearings. Plan a head.

Sounds like wise advice...I imagine that my original 1933 model B does NOT have a Full Flow Filter

Thanks Ron, you are a wise man.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Great thread, logic has it that keep ing all thad Gunk and ware products in suspension is great for an engine with a full flow filter. However, without the FULL flow filter we just pump all that cr*p through the bearings. Plan a head.

At the risk of seeming to be Luke taking on Yoda that is perhaps marginally true in some instances, but not as universal as it might seem in the abstract.
It would depend on particle size and molecular weight (don't panic folks, this isn't going to get too wonky). Even if there is a full flow system the oil still changes color dependent on how much stuff/contaminant the engine produces/ingests. Particles smaller than the porosity of the filter media still get through. A large part of why a filter system has a bypass is so that if too much junk accumulates to plug the filter the engine will still get oil; the engineers knowing that "dirty" oil is better than no oil. The dispersant won't hold all particles in suspension either (this goes to the wear particle idea). Higher molecular weight particles will not be held in suspension by the dispersant, and maybe a few will be held "afloat" by fluid flow, but most will likely fall out of the oil flow. If the particle size is smaller than the bearing clearances they will likely flow past those bearing surfaces except in some unusual circumstances. In which case, a non-detergent oil would likely have the same issues. Frequent oil changes in an unfiltered system would help some, but, depending on how much contaminant the engine produces, isn't a complete solution either.

[ford38v8]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Great thread, logic has it that keep ing all thad Gunk and ware products in suspension is great for an engine with a full flow filter. However, without the FULL flow filter we just pump all that cr*p through the bearings. Plan a head.

Ron, I have a non-Ford vehicle that has an automatic transmission in which only 3 qts out of a total of 7 qts can drain out. To change that fluid, the factory specifies to drain and refill 3 times, with a short drive in between each refill, the object being to reach a point at which further purges become pointless, as the fluid has been almost completely changed over. I use this as an example to compare with the bypass filters used on our Fords... With a total of 5 qts in the engine, it's been estimated that it takes only a 10 minute drive to circulate all the oil through the filter.

The non-detergent oil of yesteryear also kept impurities in suspension, but only until the engine was shut down, at which time the impurities slowly began to sink to become sludge on all horizontal surfaces of the engine. This culling of impurities occurred overnight, thereby allowing a somewhat cleaner oil to begin the new day with.

As a side note, all full flow oil filters have a built-in bypass that allows oil to return to service without first being filtered. Although intended to pass increasingly more oil as the filter gets dirty, we as consumers have no way of knowing when and if those filters are actually full flowing.

[ford38v8]

Uncle Bob, I didn't really steal your thunder, you posted while I was typing! At least we know that we are in agreement on the important stuff!

[JSeery]

"we as consumers have no way of knowing when and if those filters are actually full flowing."
Not entirely true, the filters have a by-pass pressure rating, so you at least know the pressure (in the filter) it will start to by-pass at.

[ford38v8]

"...the filters have a by-pass pressure rating..."

I'm sure this is true, but where is this information available to the public, and how reliable is it?

[FrankWest]

Oi-vey....I wish I knew what I was doing!

[GB SISSON]

I run diesel rated oil in my flatheads and other old engines. Something I read about 'flat tappet' engines and more zinc in the diesel rated stuff. Just so happens with a bunch of diesels around, it's what's on my shelf. Just sayin'....

[DD931]

So, under any circumstances you should change oil frequently unless you've managed to rig up a full-flow filter! The sludge-producing elements go out with the oil if they are suspended in the detergent oil!

[WestCoast]

non detergent oil has no anti acid, no anti wear, no anti moisture, no anti foaming agent, and absolutely no cleaning agents (detergents) you have a $4000 to $5000 engines, so go ahead and use non detergent oil, it wont hurt to have a new engine every 5000 miles or so, I love these guys who read that 80 year old maintenance guide, and think its gossible, they have no idea how much better oils and greases are now compared to back then, they ran that oil because that's all they had, non detergent oil is just refined oil with nothing in it to protect your engine that's why the 500 mile oil change was recommended, even the cars in the 50's with out filters were told to change the oil every 1000 miles because of better oil

[48 coupe]

I didn't say hyproid gl. 4 or 5. I said GEAR OIL. A 90 wt. gear oil is the same as a 50 wt non detergent. oil. Anyway it was back in the day. OH my god not the oil story. LOL. He didn't ask what to use he wanted to know where to get non deterg. oil.

[Mart]

My engines tend to run on a through flow constant loss system.

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Mart

My engines tend to run on a through flow constant loss system.

The oil is always fresh that way!

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Originally Posted by Mart

My engines tend to run on a through flow constant loss system.

But what if only the clean oil leaks out, leaving all the dirt behind?

[JSeery]

Originally Posted by Scott H in Wheaton

But what if only the clean oil leaks out, leaving all the dirt behind?

But he uses detergent oil so the dirt is always suspended.

[Scott H in Wheaton]

Originally Posted by JSeery

But he uses detergent oil so the dirt is always suspended.

Maybe Scully can get him some OxiClean to go with that detergent

[ford38v8]

What time do the dancing girls come out?

[rotorwrench]

Originally Posted by DD931

Mac's et. al. sell it because people buy it. That's not where you should be going for advice on how to care for your engine!! I don't know why you would use non-detergent oil for break-in, either. What property does non-detergent oil have that makes it desirable for break-in use? Wouldn't the detergent action of the detergent oil keep fine wear particles in suspension better?

Non-detergent oil allows the rings to seat with the aid of the generated particulate where the high spots in the cross hatch are getting sheared off. Detergent oil actually carries away particulate that can be useful during the bedding in process and holds it in suspension. That isn't always a good thing while bedding in an engine. Particulate in suspension is what may damage your bearings to some degree. I'd rather have it in the bottom of the oil sump than flowing along with the oil. Once the engine is bedded in there is no further use for a non-detergent oil.

In aircraft engines, it is used just for that purpose and is recommended by the manufacturer unless it will be harmful to some other component like a turbo charger. The first oil change is performed after 10-hours then at each 20 to 25-hours after until the engine has reached 100-hours since overhaul. Back when channel chrome plated cylinders were in use, the piston rings would never break in if detergent oil was utilized.

There is a reason that the crankshaft has those sludge chambers inside the crank pins. The heavier particulate in the oil is thrown outward by centrifugal force so it won't venture into the bearing areas. This is a good reason to make certain that these chambers are thoroughly cleaned out during the overhaul process.

These old engines were intended to be maintained by regular oil changes at much lower scheduled mileage intervals than we use on modern vehicles due to the bypass filtration system. The oil being changed while still hot after a good run is what gets most of the particulate out. The sump screen and the filter just get the big chunks. The rest of it stays in suspension until you dump it out of there. As was mentioned previously, the suspended particulate is so microscopic that it generally won't even affect the oil film build that is being forced through & between the bearing surfaces. If the particles get large enough to scuff or scratch the bearings then something is already wrong.

[ford38v8]

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Rotor wrench: Good writeup!

[oldford2]

[48 coupe]

Yup, olford said it all .If it weren't about oil it would be sparkplugs. Wouldn't miss it for the world.

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by oldford2

Very funny! I love it!

with all this crap, I feel like I have
metamorphosized

into a durable engine looser.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QWPIcGjjZo

[Ol' Ron]

Well I have to agree with everything that has been offered here, explaining the use or dis use of non detergent oil. I ave to agree with aloft them except one. Any person running a $5000 dollar engine with out a full flow oil filter has missed the point of it. Yes in the old days changing the oil frequently, was the only way to keep them cleam

[TJ]

Originally Posted by Mart

My engines tend to run on a through flow constant loss system.

If it's not leaking you are out of oil.

[billfish]

I buy non-detergent 30 sae at NAPA.

[Ronnie]

Here is all you ever want to argue about. "LOL" looks like 1391 posts

https://www.google.ca/search?hl=en-C...pe=&as_rights=

R

[Binx]

If you have a Tractor Supply nearby here's a source for 40W non-detergent. Not big name brand but still SAE.

http://www.tractorsupply.com/en/stor...rm/SAE40%20oil

Lonnie

[hotrodal1]

Question What do I retorque my heads on a 40 Ford iron heads? Pounds wise?

[hotrodal1]

also what should I retorque my heads on my 40Ford v8 with iron heads

[JSeery]

See "start a new thread" at the top left. Your post is totally off topic and will get lost here. And welcome to the barn!

[40 Deluxe]

A note on bypass oil filters: The original owner's manual that came in my '40 Ford says to change oil every 2,000 miles if no oil filter and every 5,000 miles if equipped with the optional bypass filter. So Ford evidently thought a lot of this filter! Since my car just recently turned 36,000 miles, theoretically it is on only its 7th oil change!

[slowforty]

Strangely enough you can find it at Wal-Mart

[Ol' Ron]

Ford also said 10 wt in winter and 30wt in summer.

[swedishsteel]

My wife just bought a '36 pickup from a fellow that has it had 52 years, restored for 50 of that and hardly driven in all that time. Twenty years ago he trailered it to a few car shows and he would regularly start it up and "drive it around the block". I'm guessing he put less that 200 miles on it while he's had it. He told me he used non detergent 30w oil in it. He lives about 5 miles from us so I drove it home and the oil pressure was good--30+ lbs. A week or so later we drove it into town for and ice cream cone, about 15 miles round trip. By the time we got home the oil pressure was running less than 20 lbs at highway speed. I immediately drained the oil when I got home and after the thin hot oil was out, I watched as sludge started to plop out. So yesterday I pulled the pan off and there was about 1/4 inch of sludge in the bottom and the oil pump screen was substantially blocked. Moral of the story--don't use non detergent oil, and......if you start it, drive it long enough and fast enough to get the oil hot so the moisture and other nasty crap will vaporize and get ventilated out of the block. Putzing "around the block" and shutting it off is the worst thing you can do for a motor. Regards and drive it like you stole it. Rod

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by swedishsteel

My wife just bought a '36 pickup from a fellow that has it had 52 years, restored for 50 of that and hardly driven in all that time. Twenty years ago he trailered it to a few car shows and he would regularly start it up and "drive it around the block". I'm guessing he put less that 200 miles on it while he's had it. He told me he used non detergent 30w oil in it. He lives about 5 miles from us so I drove it home and the oil pressure was good--30+ lbs. A week or so later we drove it into town for and ice cream cone, about 15 miles round trip. By the time we got home the oil pressure was running less than 20 lbs at highway speed. I immediately drained the oil when I got home and after the thin hot oil was out, I watched as sludge started to plop out. So yesterday I pulled the pan off and there was about 1/4 inch of sludge in the bottom and the oil pump screen was substantially blocked. Moral of the story--don't use non detergent oil, and......if you start it, drive it long enough and fast enough to get the oil hot so the moisture and other nasty crap will vaporize and get ventilated out of the block. Putzing "around the block" and shutting it off is the worst thing you can do for a motor. Regards and drive it like you stole it. Rod

Good story and good lesson for all of us. Don't be afraid to drive your car. Sometimes collects at like they are saving it like a model car on the shelf. Most of us in this hobby are in our 60's or older. Get some good memories of driving your favorite car. It will do you a world of good and the car too.
We are lucky we own Fords...Where most parts are available. Years ago I was looking into buying an Essex Terra plane...But didn't because if I ever needed parts I would be in big trouble. so us the car have fun...We will not live forever...

[FrankWest]

Originally Posted by swedishsteel

My wife just bought a '36 pickup from a fellow that has it had 52 years, restored for 50 of that and hardly driven in all that time. Twenty years ago he trailered it to a few car shows and he would regularly start it up and "drive it around the block". I'm guessing he put less that 200 miles on it while he's had it. He told me he used non detergent 30w oil in it. He lives about 5 miles from us so I drove it home and the oil pressure was good--30+ lbs. A week or so later we drove it into town for and ice cream cone, about 15 miles round trip. By the time we got home the oil pressure was running less than 20 lbs at highway speed. I immediately drained the oil when I got home and after the thin hot oil was out, I watched as sludge started to plop out. So yesterday I pulled the pan off and there was about 1/4 inch of sludge in the bottom and the oil pump screen was substantially blocked. Moral of the story--don't use non detergent oil, and......if you start it, drive it long enough and fast enough to get the oil hot so the moisture and other nasty crap will vaporize and get ventilated out of the block. Putzing "around the block" and shutting it off is the worst thing you can do for a motor. Regards and drive it like you stole it. Rod

I just remembered a similiar story about a guy that drove a newer c ar not antique only several miles every day to a railroad station so that he could take the train into work, and then drove the car several miles from the station to home 5 days a week. He only used that car for the station run. After several years that car's engine was very badly clogged with gunk and stopped running. Again, a car should be driven.
I wonder what a good number is for running time? And probably it should be driven hard/fast sometimes to , exercise the engine/drive train. Hard to do when you have an 80 year old car and am afraid it can fall apart.

[joe 1950]

doesn't matter if you run 10-30 or straight 30 but use detergent oil for sure and change every 500 miles to start with see what it looks like judge from their the old girls love clean pants