'36 Brakes Still Don't Work...

[Enbloc]

Following on from my previous post...

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9758

As per the suggestions.
I've replace the drums for better ones, had them skimmed and the shoes arc'd with new woven linings.
I've fitted new springs and tried the brakes both with and without Ted's floaters.
I've took the slack out and adjusted them.

The brakes are "Ok", not great and the chattering still continues sometimes worse than before.

I've been on this weeks, have changed every component in some cases twice and invested alot of time and money and now I'm at a complete loss with where to turn next.

I'm rapidly losing patience with the brakes as its makes the car almost undriveable and is certainly taking the fun out of using it.

A hydraulic conversion is coming ever closer and not a route I wanted to take especially not at this stage.

[SUHRsc]

By chance do the actuators on the front have any slop in them? (the parts that go from the kingpin to the perchpin)

I'm guessing you've tried others here too...

Also.. the actuating pin that goes through the kingpin.. is this cupped correctly and of the correct diameter (original) to not allow slop when the brakes are applied?

Just shots in the dark really....

good luck!

[Jason in TX]

Are your brake levers on the spring perches that the rods attach to fully forward and the moment you pull back, the brake wedge starts to work, or is there some slack there? (oh.. I just read that you took the slack out)

I would make sure that the rod that goes from the actuator down to the wedge is the correct length. Make your own new ones if its not. Or you can use the pills, but I just put longer ones in my coupe and it helped immensely.

I also welded up the grooves worn in the brake wedge and then filed them back smooth again so that you get full even movement.

[George/Maine]

Originally Posted by Enbloc

Following on from my previous post...

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9758

As per the suggestions.
I've replace the drums for better ones, had them skimmed and the shoes arc'd with new woven linings.
I've fitted new springs and tried the brakes both with and without Ted's floaters.
I've took the slack out and adjusted them.

The brakes are "Ok", not great and the chattering still continues sometimes worse than before.

I've been on this weeks, have changed every component in some cases twice and invested alot of time and money and now I'm at a complete loss with where to turn next.

I'm rapidly losing patience with the brakes as its makes the car almost undriveable and is certainly taking the fun out of using it.

A hydraulic conversion is coming ever closer and not a route I wanted to take especially not at this stage.

For whats its worth.
There was a term used years ago called camferring the shoes.Thats when you grind back the lining 3/4", depth of 1/8" on and angle,the width of the linning,on ends of ALL the linings.
What it does is makes the drums go on better,lets the shoes rock better,and should make for no chatter.

[George/Maine]

[Enbloc]

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Tried to narrow it down further this afternoon.
First I dis-connected the back brakes and left the fronts. Chatter still present. Dis-connected the fronts and re-connected the rears. Chatter gone, brakes nice and smooth.

So its a problem on the front?

With the back brakes still connected, I connected just the passenger side front brake.
Chatter back.
Disconnected the passenger side brake and re-connected the drivers side brake.
chatter gone again.

So now I think I can pinpoint the problem to most certainly the front brakes and possibly just the passenger side front brake.

I also found movement in both front wheels when rocked in the 12 '0' clock/6 '0' clock postion. Its not excessive, but noticable.
Kingpins and brearings are tight. The movement seems to be in the drum on the spindle. Bearings are new so I'm thinking worn spindles??

Originally Posted by SUHRsc

By chance do the actuators on the front have any slop in them? (the parts that go from the kingpin to the perchpin)

I'm guessing you've tried others here too...

Also.. the actuating pin that goes through the kingpin.. is this cupped correctly and of the correct diameter (original) to not allow slop when the brakes are applied?

Just shots in the dark really....

good luck!

Actuators are tight. I haven't tried any others. Same for the actuation rods.

Originally Posted by Elrod

Are your brake levers on the spring perches that the rods attach to fully forward and the moment you pull back, the brake wedge starts to work, or is there some slack there? (oh.. I just read that you took the slack out)

I would make sure that the rod that goes from the actuator down to the wedge is the correct length. Make your own new ones if its not. Or you can use the pills, but I just put longer ones in my coupe and it helped immensely.

I also welded up the grooves worn in the brake wedge and then filed them back smooth again so that you get full even movement.

All slope was taken out.

'36 mechanicals are different to the earlier style wedges you show, but the principles are the same.

Originally Posted by George/Maine

For whats its worth.
There was a term used years ago called camferring the shoes.Thats when you grind back the lining 3/4", depth of 1/8" on and angle,the width of the linning,on ends of ALL the linings.
What it does is makes the drums go on better,lets the shoes rock better,and should make for no chatter.

All shoes have been chamfered BUT not as much as 3/4". Mine are more like 1/4-3/8".
Thanks for the scan of the workshop manual. I'll give the larger chamfer a go.

[FlatheadTed]

Enbloc You are heading in the right direction by trying to isolate the problem .How worn are your drums , particly the left side ,and how much thread is left on the adjuster ,are your shoes lined fully or short at the ends ??. What is the ware pattern like on the shoes so far.??

[Terry,OH]

check the fit of the front wheel bearings on the spindle to see if the problem lies there. looks like it is in the RF wheel. Are the wheel bearings adjusted correctly? check the lug holes on the rim, oblong? make sure the lug nuts draw the rim up tight, do they thread all the way down to the drum. check the tie rod ends and the drag link, look for bad spring shackles. are the U-bolts that hold the front spring to the crossmember tight.

[Enbloc]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

Enbloc You are heading in the right direction by trying to isolate the problem .How worn are your drums , particly the left side ,and how much thread is left on the adjuster ,are your shoes lined fully or short at the ends ??. What is the ware pattern like on the shoes so far.??

I suspect my front drums are nearing the end of their life. They still measure 12 inches with a tape.
The stock adjusters seem to be in a little more than I would expect, but what is normal?
I removed the floaters as I found they were running out of adjustment.

I have leading and trailing style shoes. I have had them fitted both with the shorter and longer leading. Same out come from both. Currently fitted with the longer shoe on the towards the front of the car. Shoes show an even contact across the whole shoe on all shoes.

[FlatheadTed]

The experiments I have done with shorter trailing and longer leading edg shoes have not been that successful and seem to chatter , 1935 came out with full shoes on ,You could try the two long /full shoes on the left wheel and test drive it ,with the right disconnected ,chatter can be one end of the lining contacting and letting go ,This can be caused by a verity of things like The bearings (that has been mentioned ) a loose backing plate. A loose perch bolt .can cause it also ,On the bottom of the backing plate there is a cam nut that can be turned to more centre the shoes ,but some have a rivet with no adjustment . Measure the shoe from the stub axle for centre ,compare this to the right side .With floaters you can place the short shoe on the rear with the full lining (all the way to the bottom ) facing down .The long shoe with the full lining to the top on the front .This is as a experiment only and not ideal long term. If the drums are the stock 12" then you should have plenty of adjustment left ,But it does sound like there's some ware there ,as you should have 3/8 adjustment thread with no ware ,You can shim the fork on the top at the adjuster link were it contacts the shoes with a rivet I use a concrete nail.,Or You can fit 1/4 " linings then this will give you much more adjustment thread .I do think your linings are likely the issue ,

[FlatheadTed]

Also Some adjuster links can have the ends worn of them through repeated adjustments over the years .Then the Fork head contacts the adjuster housing first before the shoe hits the drum, and You can lose any self energising affect .

[FlatheadTed]

Here's some shots of, on the left is a shorten lining this is unsutable .in the middle shot 3 push rod links from right a Model A one ,next a 35/36 one, next a 37/38 one ,you can see the end is warn on the 35/36 one you can weld this up or get re-pops. The backing plate shows were you can shim the adjuster .

[FlatheadTed]

This one is shows how the link can contact the housing ,

[FlatheadTed]

This shot is of the cam, you can see the slot for turning it. Not to over shadow all the other good contributors .

[Enbloc]

Chamfered the shoes as suggested. This made no difference.

Chatter with brakes connected. Disconnected the RH front again chatter stops. 99.9% sure its one corner causing the problems.

Had a good look at the push rod links . They seem to sit way too far onto the shoe. They are sitting so far onto the shoe that their bottoming out and even burring the shoe. I'll try and get pictures tomorrow.

I packed out the the push rod as Ted explained above. This improved some shoes but one or two were still sitting to far in.

Gave it another drive and things have improved slightly. It still chatters but not as bad.
I'm going to order new push rods and weld up the ends of the brake shoes as well as they seem to be showing signs of wear.

[FlatheadTed]

If you want to stop the link head from contacting the housing as per my photo then yes weld in the angled edge ,or get repoped ones , bare in mind that the shoe needs to slide in the fork vertically so this must be cleaned and lubed in the slot .Standard drums on a 35 are 12" since you have yours turned they will be over size .This does not take much to affect the threads on the adjusters .Its best when doing a brake job is put on 1/4 " linings .This is std practise here ,it you have new 11" for a ,A model, or 12" 32to 38 drums ,then 3/16 linings you will get away with .All this can be overcome by welding the angled end .

[BrianCT]

Originally Posted by Enbloc

Tried to narrow it down further this afternoon.
First I dis-connected the back brakes and left the fronts. Chatter still present. Dis-connected the fronts and re-connected the rears. Chatter gone, brakes nice and smooth.

So its a problem on the front?

With the back brakes still connected, I connected just the passenger side front brake.
Chatter back.
Disconnected the passenger side brake and re-connected the drivers side brake.
chatter gone again.

So now I think I can pinpoint the problem to most certainly the front brakes and possibly just the passenger side front brake.

I also found movement in both front wheels when rocked in the 12 '0' clock/6 '0' clock postion. Its not excessive, but noticable.
Kingpins and brearings are tight. The movement seems to be in the drum on the spindle. Bearings are new so I'm thinking worn spindles??



Actuators are tight. I haven't tried any others. Same for the actuation rods.



All slope was taken out.

'36 mechanicals are different to the earlier style wedges you show, but the principles are the same.



All shoes have been chamfered BUT not as much as 3/4". Mine are more like 1/4-3/8".
Thanks for the scan of the workshop manual. I'll give the larger chamfer a go.

I had a slight chatter problem on front like you describe. Properly tightening the wheel bearing solved it. You should not have noticeable
wheel movement at gripping at 6 and 12.

[George/Maine]

If you have it to the right side,swap your drums and see if it moves.Are your shoes to wide and hitting on side of drum.Some times when turnning them they don,t go far enought and hit the sides.If your bearing are loose you will have up and down movement.There should be NO movement.If the shoes are to wide grind the sides down,or have someone turn the drum farther.

[George/Maine]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

If you have it to the right side,swap your drums and see if it moves.Are your shoes to wide and hitting on side of drum.Some times when turnning them they don,t go far enought and hit the sides.If your bearing are loose you will have up and down movement.There should be NO movement.If the shoes are to wide grind the sides down,or have someone turn the drum farther.

I have noticed some of the new bearing the radious is small and not right.When you go swapping parts you can make thing worst.If you have the old bearing check it with new.A full radious hits the spindle and control how far the drum go in.Did the brakes work ok before or is this a new car your working on.

[Mr 42]

One thing that looks "odd" to me is the lack of grease on the pictures, Don't go overboard with but a dab here and there, will help movement metal to metal and maybe silence the brakes.


This is how my 33 brakes looked/looks Grease wise.

[gmc1941]

The one thing that hasn't been discussed is the rods and the service brake shaft. If any of these rods have ovaled holes or the pins are worn you maybe not applying equal pressure on certain wheels. After listing of all the possiblities no one has brought this to your attendtion. You need to do a COMPLETE brake check not just bouncing from one area to another. You'll be surprised on what you'll find. It's better to be a complete ass than a half ass mechanic.

[Enbloc]

New car and braking system.

Everything on the braking system is new or rebuilt from the pedal assembly through the cross shaft to the rods and all the way to the wheels.

[38 coupe]

Are you sure you have the correct wedges? I read a story where the incorrect wedges caused problems and was hard to diagnose since different years look very similar. I wish I had a better suggestion. I sure hope you don't go to hydraulic.

[Enbloc]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

Are you sure you have the correct wedges? I read a story where the incorrect wedges caused problems and was hard to diagnose since different years look very similar. I wish I had a better suggestion. I sure hope you don't go to hydraulic.

I'm sure I have the right ones. There is a very small difference between '35/'36 and late '36. Don't know the reason why?

[Enbloc]

Pictures...

RH front brake. The one I feel is at fault.



All the shoes look like this, with even contact over the whole surface.



With the nails in place you can still see that the link is still sitting to far onto the shoe . You can also see where the link was digging into the shoe before.



I have found that all the shoes sit in the link on the angle with contact only be made on the very bottom of the link leaving a noticable gap between shoe and link at the top.
Is this correct?

[gmc1941]

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One more thing to throw in is; if you have way of placing a block of wood or a fixture that could put pressure on the brake pedal at different increments to see were the individual wheels lock up or stop turning. The Model A people have such a device. This way you can tell if the brakes are adjusted properly or evenly and will show which wheel rod is is pushing or pulling evenly. Just another person putting there 2 cents in. Gordon

[gmc1941]

More of my 2 cents, have you tried switching brake drums on the front? This may tell if you problem is the drums.

[Enbloc]

Originally Posted by gmc1941

One more thing to throw in is; if you have way of placing a block of wood or a fixture that could put pressure on the brake pedal at different increments to see were the individual wheels lock up or stop turning. The Model A people have such a device. This way you can tell if the brakes are adjusted properly or evenly and will show which wheel rod is is pushing or pulling evenly. Just another person putting there 2 cents in. Gordon

This is how I've been setting them up already. I try to get them even front to rear or get the fronts to bite just before the rears and evenly side to side and front to rear.

Originally Posted by gmc1941

More of my 2 cents, have you tried switching brake drums on the front? This may tell if you problem is the drums.

I haven't will try tomorrow.

I've tried now to get the shoes chattering and then disconnected the rh front then reconnected, then dis-connect the LH.
It doesn't matter which front you dis-connect the chattering will stop??
My thoughts of it being the RH side are not true it seems.

So why when I reduce the braking to the front does it stop but under normal adjustment the problem returns?

[Ed Pitts]

Looking at the Green Bible, it looks like there was a different link in 1936 used for a wedge with the part # 68-2041. It has a shorter outside part that fits around the brake shoe. I wonder if you have mismatched links and wedges? The part # shown for the link is 78-2042 that goes with 68-2041. From your picture, it looks like you have the link part #68-2042. This is on page 30. Ed

[Enbloc]

Originally Posted by Ed Pitts

Looking at the Green Bible, it looks like there was a different link in 1936 used for a wedge with the part # 68-2041. It has a shorter outside part that fits around the brake shoe. I wonder if you have mismatched links and wedges? The part # shown for the link is 78-2042 that goes with 68-2041. From your picture, it looks like you have the link part #68-2042. This is on page 30. Ed

Checked this also.

I have '35/ealy '36 style wedges, links and adjusters.

[Enbloc]

Originally Posted by Jeff/Illinois

Enbloc, if all else fails and it sounds like you've done about everything, hydraulics work very nicely.

Our '36 pickup has hydraulic brakes, the fellow I bought the truck from put them on. They stop you REAL quickly work great.

I don't doubt it.

If I knew I was going to have this much trouble I'd have fitted hydraulics.

[gmc1941]

But just think how much you (and us) have learn about your vehicle. And we or you didn't have to pay for the phone calls. Sometimes it feels good to help sombody across the pond. Cheer up you could have bought a new car.

[George/Maine]

Originally Posted by Enbloc

Pictures...

RH front brake. The one I feel is at fault.



All the shoes look like this, with even contact over the whole surface.



With the nails in place you can still see that the link is still sitting to far onto the shoe . You can also see where the link was digging into the shoe before.



I have found that all the shoes sit in the link on the angle with contact only be made on the very bottom of the link leaving a noticable gap between shoe and link at the top.
Is this correct?

I would like to guess at this but any pictures of these brakes the both shoes are the same A530 is short on bottom.I think it should look like the other side full brake.Seeing they push out they should be the same.
I think your brakes are mixed up,or made wrong.
My 2 cents.

[FlatheadTed]

,Did you get instructions with the floaters and what dealer did you get them from.

[gmc1941]

Enbloc, I know this becoming a pain in the ass. Do you have access to the Green bible? If so check page #30 to match the parts. If you don't can you diassemble the right front and take photos of the parts so you can get more guidence and show the part # you purchased. I've several problems with certain complanies with parts that are either miss marked or mislabled they had no clue what was supposted be in the package. One item it took six times for a trans part. NEXT

[FlatheadTed]

I think you will have the same problem with hydraulics certainly if you run it with half the lining missing ,I posted a photo of a 3/4 shoe with the lining that we removed ,all 4 off a 32 because of all the chattering ,The problem was a mediately solved . Also as you mentioned the ends of the metal shoes have been cut of .your are about 1/4 short were it contacts the link ,this will cause floaters to run out of thread ,You should put the floaters back on get the ends of the shoes welded up .fix the rear (short lining ) then you should have very good brakes.I have at a picture of how much you have cut of the shoes .I have done a lot of research on how to get these brakes working.You need to address the previous .

[FlatheadTed]

I see you have new springs these are often miles to strong ??

[ken ct]

Originally Posted by Ed Pitts

Looking at the Green Bible, it looks like there was a different link in 1936 used for a wedge with the part # 68-2041. It has a shorter outside part that fits around the brake shoe. I wonder if you have mismatched links and wedges? The part # shown for the link is 78-2042 that goes with 68-2041. From your picture, it looks like you have the link part #68-2042. This is on page 30. Ed

I was thinking that too i know there was a change in brake hardware in 36. 2 diff styles. He may have a mismatch of parts.ken ct.I think you hit it ed. ken ct.

[Enbloc]

Originally Posted by George/Maine

I would like to guess at this but any pictures of these brakes the both shoes are the same A530 is short on bottom.I think it should look like the other side full brake.Seeing they push out they should be the same.
I think your brakes are mixed up,or made wrong.
My 2 cents.

Yes, I have a leading and trailing shoe. As already mentioned I have tried them both ways with no luck.
I have also moved by long shoes into one side and both short shoes into the other.
Again no differnece.

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

,Did you get instructions with the floaters and what dealer did you get them from.

The floater kit came from Macs. It had "instructions" but they were very sparse and full of errors.

Originally Posted by gmc1941

Enbloc, I know this becoming a pain in the ass. Do you have access to the Green bible? If so check page #30 to match the parts. If you don't can you diassemble the right front and take photos of the parts so you can get more guidence and show the part # you purchased. I've several problems with certain complanies with parts that are either miss marked or mislabled they had no clue what was supposted be in the package. One item it took six times for a trans part. NEXT

Yes I have a Green Bible and have checked all parts. As I said earlier, they are all '35/ early' 36.
Apart from the springs all parts are good originals.

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

I think you will have the same problem with hydraulics certainly if you run it with half the lining missing ,I posted a photo of a 3/4 shoe with the lining that we removed ,all 4 off a 32 because of all the chattering ,The problem was a mediately solved . Also as you mentioned the ends of the metal shoes have been cut of .your are about 1/4 short were it contacts the link ,this will cause floaters to run out of thread ,You should put the floaters back on get the ends of the shoes welded up .fix the rear (short lining ) then you should have very good brakes.I have at a picture of how much you have cut of the shoes .I have done a lot of research on how to get these brakes working.You need to address the previous .

As posted above I have moved the front shoes as an experiment. Both long shoes went onto one side and the two short shoes went on the other. There was no change what so ever to the braking or the problem of chattering.
I might try moving all the long shoes to the front and the short ones to the back.
The rear has long and short shoes as well and they haven't given any problems. If the short shoes are at fault, why only on the front?

I can see the difference in the ends of the shoes. Why would someone cut the ends of the shoes off!?!

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

I see you have new springs these are often miles to strong ??

I've tried both original springs and repro springs. Problem persists with both.

[George/Maine]

You haven,t tryed everthing yet.LOL
If your backing plates are the same.
What i would do is swap them,and if you can get 2 long shoes the same,I don,t know if you can swap them.Pair them up and get them the same camfer even or get new shoes.Check spindle right side for wear.Now take the drum from other side.Adjust brakes and try.
The wedge should be at rest and adjust at top with slite drag.
The shiney a530 shoe is hitting the drum could be bearing wrong,drum problem. Try and see. Good luck.

[Terry,OH]

I took a couple of Ford script brake shoes and layed them out and adjusted the diameter to 12" this is what they look like. A nail would not fit in the location you have inserted one with the retracting springs attached without forcing it in place. The brake shoe link 48-2042 has the brake shoe backing plate bottomed out. the two upper inside edges of the backing plates appear nearly parallel.

[Henryat1140]

Well, just to jump in with another angle. On my 36 I tinkered with the brakes chasing a chattering problem for a couple of months. Found a used cross shaft at the Charlotte meet and had it rebuilt by an Amish machine shop.

They turned a new shaft and new bushings. That took all the play out of the whole assembly. When we installed it we found a lot of wear on the clevis pin that connects the rear rods to the cross shaft, and replaced it.

After the rebuilt cross shaft was installed the brakes were as close to perfect as practically possible. They stop straight ahead with smooth action and good pedal. (All stock no floaters) So I'm a believer in rebuilding the cross shaft. I think I saw a brief mention that you had done this, but if not I really recommend it for good brake operation.

BTW if anyone is interested I am having my my original cross shaft rebuilt and it will be available if someone needs one. I could bring it to Hershey.

[Enbloc]

Now this is intersting about the shoes.

I pulled the front drums again today to check the suggestion that the shoes and been reduced in length.
Well they have been, by alot in some cases and they have been cut down differently from left to right as well!

I've pulled the rear drums to check the brakes and their perfect just as they should be.





The rears as I've posted before have always fitted right, felt right and worked right.
The fronts on the other hand have always been the complete opposite and all tracable back to the ill fitting shoes.

The other wierd thing is how all the bad shoes have ended up on the front?
I've never made any effort to keep when to the corners they was removed from and have been mixed up several times.
Murphy's law?

I think this is the reason I never spotted the difference in shoes because they have never been side by side on the car.

Tomorrow will hopefully bring the fronts back into spec using the rears as a template.

Wish me luck.

[FRANK PKNY]

I know you may not want to hear this at this point. I had a similar problem with my 35 that I want to keep stock. I added brake equalizers and the problem went away and she stops as good as my 39 does. Frank pkny

[George/Maine]

I'm not sure are on track here.There should be long shoes on both front and back.If the backs work leave it alone.You need a new set of shoes,full NO open rivet holes.The bottom camfer is the importent one.The backs are wrong shoes.

[Brian]

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Good that you seem to have found the problem. One thing is evident, looking at your photos, and Lars has pointed it out; when you assemble this all again, apply some lube to all moving parts, your entire brake mechanism is dry as a bone! This will certainly help matters. Brian

[FlatheadTed]

As frank said I would put the floaters back, and if you don't want to get into the welding I would make up a wedge to go were the nail is 3/16 wide out of 1/8 stock ./flat Barr with a head something like a I or H . I looked over our instuctions and apart from a couple of typos I wouldnt say they were full of errors ,But we could add some more info in the light of your problem .You can contact me if you need to .

Originally Posted by FRANK PKNY

I know you may not want to hear this at this point. I had a similar problem with my 35 that I want to keep stock. I added brake equalizers and the problem went away and she stops as good as my 39 does. Frank pkny

[FlatheadTed]

Looking at your top photo again you can see were the head of the adjuster link is almost touching the adjuster housing ,This I have already explained in the previous photos with the arrows. There is no way floaters will work ,unless you weld the inner ends of the adjuster link on the angle piece .or replace them with new ones . You could go for the H/I option you will need to grind a little of the housing ends ,this is all to get free movement at the top .It need to move about 1/8 either side .Even if they were on the front they will make a lot of difference .

[Enbloc]

Originally Posted by Brian

Good that you seem to have found the problem. One thing is evident, looking at your photos, and Lars has pointed it out; when you assemble this all again, apply some lube to all moving parts, your entire brake mechanism is dry as a bone! This will certainly help matters. Brian

They were all greased at one time. Its all been on and off so many times now theres none left!

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

As frank said I would put the floaters back, and if you don't want to get into the welding I would make up a wedge to go were the nail is 3/16 wide out of 1/8 stock ./flat Barr with a head something like a I or H . I looked over our instuctions and apart from a couple of typos I wouldnt say they were full of errors ,But we could add some more info in the light of your problem .You can contact me if you need to .

when I said errors I meant gramatical and puncuation. The information is there but its very differcult to read.

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

Looking at your top photo again you can see were the head of the adjuster link is almost touching the adjuster housing ,This I have already explained in the previous photos with the arrows. There is no way floaters will work ,unless you weld the inner ends of the adjuster link on the angle piece .or replace them with new ones . You could go for the H/I option you will need to grind a little of the housing ends ,this is all to get free movement at the top .It need to move about 1/8 either side .Even if they were on the front they will make a lot of difference .

The links are almost touching the housing because the adjuster is wound completely out so I could pull the rear hub off.
They would sit further out when adjusted.

[FlatheadTed]

OK ,The Model A instructions are more detailed because they have been discussed a lot more,There is room for more detail on the v8 ones ,Put the floaters back on while you have all the advisers here.

[Enbloc]

Heres a picture of my shoes.

The left came from the rear which works and is how it should look. The shoe on the right is what came off front. As you can see someone has got real happy with the saw and removed 1/2" of shoe!
This is the same for all 4 shoes on the front.



The only explanation I can think of for doing this is that at some point in the past the brakes that these shoes had been with had some sort of backyard hydraulic conversion that involved shortening the shoes so they would fit into a brake cylinder.
Now they've gone full circle and ended up back on mechanical brakes.

[FlatheadTed]

Even though they are cut short they may not be the coarse of the judder .The 32 shoes I refer to with short lining (sent to me to solve the same problem )I set these up in the front of my 34 ,as explained the rear shoe full lining at the bottom to see how they would work .They were Ok going forward but on reverse shuddered real bad ,This shows you that short lining doesn't work .this noise is the front edge catching and vibrating .As the shoes ware in it may disappear .The other thing I notice about your backing plate it sits at 2.0 and 8.0 o clock ,instead of 9 & 3.0 Ted

[Enbloc]

4 repaired shoes. Hopefully fit them back on tomorrow.

[Enbloc]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

Even though they are cut short they may not be the coarse of the judder .The 32 shoes I refer to with short lining (sent to me to solve the same problem )I set these up in the front of my 34 ,as explained the rear shoe full lining at the bottom to see how they would work .They were Ok going forward but on reverse shuddered real bad ,This shows you that short lining doesn't work .this noise is the front edge catching and vibrating .As the shoes ware in it may disappear .The other thing I notice about your backing plate it sits at 2.0 and 8.0 o clock ,instead of 9 & 3.0 Ted

They may not be the problem. But there is no denying that they are way off the mark of being right also.
I'm trying to change one part at a time so I can keep track of what is working and what isn't.
If this doesn't work then I'll move onto the next part which may well be the short linings.

I'm not following with what parts you are refering to that are at 2 and 8? The closest parts to these points are the centre of the shoes?
It is impossible to get the shoes in a 3 and 9 position.
Moving the back plate one hole would put the shoes at a 4 and 7 position. It wouldn't matter anyway because nothing would line up or fit anymore. I know I've tried.
Also the Green Bible shows the exact same fitment and orientation as mine.

[George/Maine]

Originally Posted by Enbloc

They may not be the problem. But there is no denying that they are way off the mark of being right also.
I'm trying to change one part at a time so I can keep track of what is working and what isn't.
If this doesn't work then I'll move onto the next part which may well be the short linings.

I'm not following with what parts you are refering to that are at 2 and 8? The closest parts to these points are the centre of the shoes?
It is impossible to get the shoes in a 3 and 9 position.
Moving the back plate one hole would put the shoes at a 4 and 7 position. It wouldn't matter anyway because nothing would line up or fit anymore. I know I've tried.
Also the Green Bible shows the exact same fitment and orientation as mine.

I think if the lining were reversed the cut one to the back it may have worked better.The 35 36 when changed to wider shoe they centered better to float and the cut was to make it slide better that would be the rear shoe.I would put the repaired to back,but think the short lining is not good in front.If all else fails get a new set of full linings.

[FlatheadTed]

The repairs look good you are on your way .The 2 & 8 o'clock was the backing plate ,I checked out my 35 and you have it right ,its my error.

[Enbloc]

Holy Cow! I just went through my windshield!!

Re-assembled my brakes with the repaired shoes and Teds floaters back in. Immediately stuff was going back together as it should on the front better than it ever went together before. None of this don't look/feel right.
Things were looking up.

Took the car out and WOW, it stands on its nose and stops with no fuss or drama or shoe chatter!
I would even go as far to say it stops better than my modern!

BIG THANKS TO EVERYONE, especially Ted and George/Maine for the constant supply of ideas.

[SUHRsc]

Great news Clark!!

with all this talk and knowledge... my ol 35 might not see these Lincoln brakes I bought for it...

Originally Posted by Enbloc

Holy Cow! I just went through my windshield!!

Re-assembled my brakes with the repaired shoes and Teds floaters back in. Immediately stuff was going back together as it should on the front better than it ever went together before. None of this don't look/feel right.
Things were looking up.

Took the car out and WOW, it stands on its nose and stops with no fuss or drama or shoe chatter!
I would even go as far to say it stops better than my modern!

BIG THANKS TO EVERYONE, especially Ted and George/Maine for the constant supply of ideas.

[FlatheadTed]

Emblock that's good News ,just make sure you keep the movement at the top 3/16 to 1/4 by keeping them adjusted.Ted

[1931 flamingo]

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!! I love these long threads because so much information is exchanged by so many people, and that's what makes this a great site. JMO
Paul in CT

[BCCHOPIT]

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

congratulations!!!!!!!!! i love these long threads because so much information is exchanged by so many people, and that's what makes this a great site. Jmo
paul in ct

x2...

[FlatheadTed]

Thanks also to all contributors ,I am rewriting the instructions .Ted

[Richard (EV8G)]

Originally Posted by FlatheadTed

Thanks also to all contributors ,I am rewriting the instructions .Ted

I ordered one of your floater kits through Mac's maybe a year ago??? I have not installed it yet; been a little busy (making hydraulic conversions ...) I did read the instructions and felt at the time that maybe they did not explain WHY certain things need to be done, or how things are supposed to work??? I need to read them again to refresh my (rapidly-failing) memory...

It is sort of like the Ford Service Bulletin for adjusting the lower shoe anchors on 39-42 brakes. It gives a procedure but never mentions WHY or that the objective is to essentially center the linings in the drums so that full contact can occur. Apparently Ford and others had difficulty with this, as they redesigned the brakes for 1946 so they are self-centering.

When you have rewritten the instructions, please send them to me. (1934)
[email protected]

[FlatheadTed]

Richard The Mod A to 34 ones are reasonably extensive ,?? I think a CD is needed which we do have .waiting for up grades on our web site .There are many and varied issues that can come up .Eg this series of posts .But I will see what's the best option.Ted