The Ford Barn

dan · 12-13-2010, 11:46 AM

All,

Keeping my daily driver 31 coupe timed seems to be a regular project and I wanted to ask a couple of questions:

1. How many miles do you go between timing adjustments? I'm putting ~400 miles a month on my car and it seems to need a timing adjustment about every 500 miles. Does that sound right? Right now I'm adjusting the ignition each time I change the oil...

2. How often should I be adjusting/replacing the points?

3. How critical is getting the timing "exactly right"? I have one of those "timing ease-ification" kits on the car (crankshaft degree indicator, distributor cam adjustment scale, etc.) but I'm not confident that I've found TDC. I'm pretty sure I can come close using the timing pin (I've checked this against piston travel) but I'm thinking that I could be a degree or two off. Will a degree or two make a big difference?

4. My main issue seems to be that when set at 0° advance, the timing seems too retarded--even with the spark level set at full advance. So I've set the timing a little advanced (4° according to the scale). I don't ever put the spark lever all the way down with the timing set like this, but it seems like it runs best this way--when I set it to 2° it still seemed to not be advanced enough at full advance on the spark lever. Assuming that I'm not running hot and not advancing the lever to full-down, this should be OK, no?

I drive in to work early in the morning (while it's still dark in the winter months). I'm not overly excited about coming to work, but the drive is certainly fun ;-)

Thanks
Dan

Larry Seemann · 12-13-2010, 12:05 PM

Timing a Model A ain't rocket surgery. Once it's set it's set except for resetting the point gap ever once in awhile as the rub block wears down. The best instructions I know of are on Marco's site: abarnyard.com

MrTube · 12-13-2010, 12:15 PM

I believe I came very close using the timing pin and Ford's procedure.

However I then tweaked it so it idles best with the timing lever just a hair advanced from the full retard position. This at least in my mind seemed the way it should be.

The reason I felt it necessary to tweak was it was difficult for me to get it perfect with the backlash in the distributor.

This is just my 2 cents, there are many many people here with far more experience with A's then me.

JD Miller · 12-13-2010, 12:21 PM

What's with this continuing discussion of timing a Model A Ford? Good grief.

As Larry posts, once the timing is set it's set. It doesn't change.

Setting timing is well explained in the Owner's Manual. That procedure worked from the time these cars were put into production and is as valid today as when the Owner's Manual was printed. All these "gee-whiz" procedures that are all over folks web sites may have some entertainment value, but that's about all.

I get the impression that folks like to mess with the timing on their cars for lack of any better way to entertain themselves. Guess it's no fun to have a good running Model A Ford unless you can go out and continue to "play" with things like timing. At least it gives folks something to do other than pick lint from their navels.

Tom Endy · 12-13-2010, 12:54 PM

You should always set the point gap first to .018-.022, then set the timing. I always set the points to .020. As the rubbing block wears the points will close up and change the timing. By re-setting the points back to where you set them the timing is restored.

You can remove the distributor from the car and re-install it without upsetting the timing as long as you do not loosen the screw holding the point cam. And as long as you put it back in the same car you took it out of.

If you carry a spare distributor, set the points, set the timing, and run it in the car to make sure it runs good. Now you can remove it from the car and if you have a need to replace the distributor on a tour, it is ready to go without any adjustments. Just don't try to put it in a different car as it will not be timed for that car.

Tom Endy

johnbuckley · 12-13-2010, 01:01 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Surely I'm not the the only one who reckons that the motor can be set up substantially more advanced than it was set up to be in the 1930s thanks to modern fuels, and hence use the timing pin proceedure as a guide only prior to using the advance retard lever to whatever suits the car best on the road.

Tom Wesenberg · 12-13-2010, 01:01 PM

LOL, yes there's a lot of trueth in what JD just posted.

Start out with a good distributor cam, free of grooves and rust, and be sure to lubricate it and the distributor shaft, and you should be good for thousands of miles. Once set, the timing should be good for the life of the engine. Just reset the points gap as it wears every few thousand miles.

dan · 12-13-2010, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Seemann

Timing a Model A ain't rocket surgery. Once it's set it's set except for resetting the point gap ever once in awhile as the rub block wears down. The best instructions I know of are on Marco's site: abarnyard.com

Thanks Larry--that's what I was thinking was supposed to be the case.

When I changed out a bad condenser I re-timed the motor and everything was right as rain. 500 miles later it was running significantly rough and re-timing it corrected the problem. This means that apparently there's something else going on that I need to investigate, since the timing was set and then out of adjustment after 500 miles... Any one have thoughts on why it might have gone out of adjustment so soon?

I used Marco's instructions (they're printed out and kept in the garage in a three-ring notebook I use to keep useful A info) the first time around. This time I used the timing mark on the pulley (that I put there the first time) and the degree scale because it's a lot quicker--just pull the rotor and turn the wrench to the right mark.

dan · 12-13-2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

You should always set the point gap first to .018-.022, then set the timing. I always set the points to .020. As the rubbing block wears the points will close up and change the timing. By re-setting the points back to where you set them the timing is restored.
Tom Endy

Thanks Tom. Any guestimate on how a reasonable schedule for setting the points? Every x miles?

Tom Wesenberg · 12-13-2010, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnbuckley

Surely I'm not the the only one who reckons that the motor can be set up substantially more advanced than it was set up to be in the 1930s thanks to modern fuels, and hence use the timing pin proceedure as a guide only prior to using the advance retard lever to whatever suits the car best on the road.

If you ever hand crank the car you will see why you want to set the timing the original and correct way.

I forgot to retard the spark on an antique Evinrude Speeditwin when I was about 16. I wrapped the rope around the flywheel, gave it a pull, and just about got launched out the rear of the boat!

Tom Wesenberg · 12-13-2010, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan

Thanks Larry--that's what I was thinking was supposed to be the case.

When I changed out a bad condenser I re-timed the motor and everything was right as rain. 500 miles later it was running significantly rough and re-timing it corrected the problem. This means that apparently there's something else going on that I need to investigate, since the timing was set and then out of adjustment after 500 miles... Any one have thoughts on why it might have gone out of adjustment so soon?

I used Marco's instructions (they're printed out and kept in the garage in a three-ring notebook I use to keep useful A info) the first time around. This time I used the timing mark on the pulley (that I put there the first time) and the degree scale because it's a lot quicker--just pull the rotor and turn the wrench to the right mark.

It sounds like your cam isn't "locked" in position when you tighten the screw. Check to be sure you have the correct flat washer and lock washer. Over the years I have found some repro parts, such as the flat washer and lock washer don't fit correctly, and even though the screw feels tight, the cam isn't locked down tight.

Tom Endy · 12-13-2010, 02:07 PM

Dan:

On a new set of reproduction points they will close up as much as .010 during the first 100 miles. This is because there is initially rapid wear to the rubbing block. Once a glaze has occurred there is much less wear. My distibutors all have old original points I salvaged out of distributors. They have better made rubbing blocks and much more tungston on the contacts.

On a tour if your points start closing up you will notice the engine wants to ping at the nominal advance position. You have to retard the handle to get it to stop. The more it closes up the higher you have to raise the handle. This is because the timing is changing. When you start running out of handle it is time to stop and regap the points.

At one thousand mile intervals I change the oil and grease the car. I also remove the distributor and clamp it in a vice where I can see better and not have to bend over the car. I file the points and regap them, put oil in the distributor and grease the point cam, clean it up a bit and put it back in the car. By occasionally removing and replacing the distributor you lessen the chance that moisture and rust will freeze it into place, making it very difficult to remove.

Tom Endy

pooch · 12-13-2010, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnbuckley

Surely I'm not the the only one who reckons that the motor can be set up substantially more advanced than it was set up to be in the 1930s thanks to modern fuels, and hence use the timing pin proceedure as a guide only prior to using the advance retard lever to whatever suits the car best on the road.

I thought the advance movement was 20 degrees at the dizzy plate , so that makes 40 degrees at the crank.

I thought a modernish car with points runs about 34 total plate advance.

Admittedly they have a vacuum advance as well for light throttle cruise.

Would not 40 degrees on generally pulling up a hill (not lugging) be on the high side?

1931 flamingo · 12-13-2010, 05:52 PM

Mr Tube: There is a NU_REX tool avail for setting the timing after TDC is found. Loosen the cam screw, install tool onto cam, rotate 2 turns c/wise WITH dist body on, when tool contacts #4 pin on the body TIGHTEN screw. This removes all the slop. Snyder's and others have it. Neat!! JMO
Paul in CT

12-13-2010, 11:46 AM	#1
dan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: McPherson, KS Posts: 197	Timing questions All, Keeping my daily driver 31 coupe timed seems to be a regular project and I wanted to ask a couple of questions: 1. How many miles do you go between timing adjustments? I'm putting ~400 miles a month on my car and it seems to need a timing adjustment about every 500 miles. Does that sound right? Right now I'm adjusting the ignition each time I change the oil... 2. How often should I be adjusting/replacing the points? 3. How critical is getting the timing "exactly right"? I have one of those "timing ease-ification" kits on the car (crankshaft degree indicator, distributor cam adjustment scale, etc.) but I'm not confident that I've found TDC. I'm pretty sure I can come close using the timing pin (I've checked this against piston travel) but I'm thinking that I could be a degree or two off. Will a degree or two make a big difference? 4. My main issue seems to be that when set at 0° advance, the timing seems too retarded--even with the spark level set at full advance. So I've set the timing a little advanced (4° according to the scale). I don't ever put the spark lever all the way down with the timing set like this, but it seems like it runs best this way--when I set it to 2° it still seemed to not be advanced enough at full advance on the spark lever. Assuming that I'm not running hot and not advancing the lever to full-down, this should be OK, no? I drive in to work early in the morning (while it's still dark in the winter months). I'm not overly excited about coming to work, but the drive is certainly fun ;-) Thanks Dan Last edited by dan; 12-13-2010 at 11:54 AM.

12-13-2010, 12:05 PM	#2
Larry Seemann Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Spokane, WA. Posts: 496	Re: Timing questions Timing a Model A ain't rocket surgery. Once it's set it's set except for resetting the point gap ever once in awhile as the rub block wears down. The best instructions I know of are on Marco's site: abarnyard.com __________________ Larry Seemann

12-13-2010, 12:15 PM	#3
MrTube Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 1,471	Re: Timing questions I believe I came very close using the timing pin and Ford's procedure. However I then tweaked it so it idles best with the timing lever just a hair advanced from the full retard position. This at least in my mind seemed the way it should be. The reason I felt it necessary to tweak was it was difficult for me to get it perfect with the backlash in the distributor. This is just my 2 cents, there are many many people here with far more experience with A's then me.

12-13-2010, 12:54 PM	#5
Tom Endy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,131	Re: Timing questions You should always set the point gap first to .018-.022, then set the timing. I always set the points to .020. As the rubbing block wears the points will close up and change the timing. By re-setting the points back to where you set them the timing is restored. You can remove the distributor from the car and re-install it without upsetting the timing as long as you do not loosen the screw holding the point cam. And as long as you put it back in the same car you took it out of. If you carry a spare distributor, set the points, set the timing, and run it in the car to make sure it runs good. Now you can remove it from the car and if you have a need to replace the distributor on a tour, it is ready to go without any adjustments. Just don't try to put it in a different car as it will not be timed for that car. Tom Endy

12-13-2010, 01:01 PM	#6
johnbuckley Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 1,443	Re: Timing questions Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Surely I'm not the the only one who reckons that the motor can be set up substantially more advanced than it was set up to be in the 1930s thanks to modern fuels, and hence use the timing pin proceedure as a guide only prior to using the advance retard lever to whatever suits the car best on the road.

12-13-2010, 12:21 PM	#4
JD Miller Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Yorktown, VA Posts: 139	Re: Timing questions What's with this continuing discussion of timing a Model A Ford? Good grief. As Larry posts, once the timing is set it's set. It doesn't change. Setting timing is well explained in the Owner's Manual. That procedure worked from the time these cars were put into production and is as valid today as when the Owner's Manual was printed. All these "gee-whiz" procedures that are all over folks web sites may have some entertainment value, but that's about all. I get the impression that folks like to mess with the timing on their cars for lack of any better way to entertain themselves. Guess it's no fun to have a good running Model A Ford unless you can go out and continue to "play" with things like timing. At least it gives folks something to do other than pick lint from their navels.

12-13-2010, 01:01 PM	#7
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: Timing questions LOL, yes there's a lot of trueth in what JD just posted. Start out with a good distributor cam, free of grooves and rust, and be sure to lubricate it and the distributor shaft, and you should be good for thousands of miles. Once set, the timing should be good for the life of the engine. Just reset the points gap as it wears every few thousand miles.

12-13-2010, 02:07 PM	#12
Tom Endy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,131	Re: Timing questions Dan: On a new set of reproduction points they will close up as much as .010 during the first 100 miles. This is because there is initially rapid wear to the rubbing block. Once a glaze has occurred there is much less wear. My distibutors all have old original points I salvaged out of distributors. They have better made rubbing blocks and much more tungston on the contacts. On a tour if your points start closing up you will notice the engine wants to ping at the nominal advance position. You have to retard the handle to get it to stop. The more it closes up the higher you have to raise the handle. This is because the timing is changing. When you start running out of handle it is time to stop and regap the points. At one thousand mile intervals I change the oil and grease the car. I also remove the distributor and clamp it in a vice where I can see better and not have to bend over the car. I file the points and regap them, put oil in the distributor and grease the point cam, clean it up a bit and put it back in the car. By occasionally removing and replacing the distributor you lessen the chance that moisture and rust will freeze it into place, making it very difficult to remove. Tom Endy

12-13-2010, 05:52 PM	#14
1931 flamingo Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: new britain,ct 06052 Posts: 9,390	Re: Timing questions Mr Tube: There is a NU_REX tool avail for setting the timing after TDC is found. Loosen the cam screw, install tool onto cam, rotate 2 turns c/wise WITH dist body on, when tool contacts #4 pin on the body TIGHTEN screw. This removes all the slop. Snyder's and others have it. Neat!! JMO Paul in CT