Help! Electrical issues

[Gooseloony]

Hello All, Ok I bought this '28 a few weeks ago and have had nothing but problems right off the bat. This is my first post but have been lurking and searching trying to find answers unfortunately my mechanical abilities are limited and at times feel overwhelmed with reading all the threads while trying to solve issues.
Anyway, while trying to start it kept blowing the fuse mounted on the starter, a friend suggested I had a short somewhere. So searched all through the wiring with volt/ohm meter and found nothing. I did repair a few questional connections and low and behold it started right up BUT after a test drive the switch wouldn't turn off so I removed the fuse. I decide to wait a few days to relieve some frustration. I went back in to see it there were answers around the switch and I noticed the 2 terminals at the switch were touching, so I spread them apart and put some friction tape around each, then fired it up again. It ran for a few minutes then died, tried to restart, wouldn't turn over. I went and looked and the fuse blew again. Of note--I still read 6 volts from fuse holder to ground. Any ideas please?

[700rpm]

A more complete description of the general condition of the car would help. Old wiring, original type harness, 6v, alternator, sealed beams, and other info? What are we dealing with here?

[Gooseloony]

Just a 1928 Ford Model A coupe, 6V, with what looks like original wiring and from the wiring diagram has a Generator not an alternator and sealed beam headlights (if that's what you mean). If needed I will take and post photos.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Gooseloony

It ran for a few minutes then died, tried to restart, wouldn't turn over. I went and looked and the fuse blew again. Of note--I still read 6 volts from fuse holder to ground. Any ideas please?

When trying to get answers online you have to be very careful of your wording to get the best results. As an example, you state "tried to restart, wouldn't turn over." To me this statement means when you pushed the starter button on the floor nothing happened. The engine did not turn over, it did not move at all. Or, do you mean that the engine did move but did not start?

You also state that "...the fuse blew again. Of note--I still read 6 volts from fuse holder to ground." If you had 6 volts on both sides of the fuse the fuse would be good. If you had 6 volts on only one side that would be normal for a blown fuse.

Do you have a wiring diagram?



The fuse is located on the yellow wire above the wording "starter switch".

My guess is your headlight buckets have an intermittent short, blowing out the fuse.

[TinCup]

First off this is a car if you will just step back and take a deep breath you can figure out. Remember by finding out what it is not you will find out what it is. Forget all of the things you know about modern car reliability. Ford didn't even provide a fused circuit on these cars. As Mike stated headlight buckets are notorious as is the ignition switch. Use the barn as it is a wealth of information.

[Gooseloony]

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Asking for patience guys and I do appreciate your comments. I accept I am way behind most all of you here--hence the reason I am posting and asking for help. I will try to explain as best I can but not being a mechanic, some statements I make may not be how a seasoned mechanic would say it. Anyway, when I say 6v at the fuse holder, it is on the "line" side (without a fuse). I do have the wiring diagram. When I push the starter button on the floor it's trying to start (of course now the battery is going dead from me trying to start it) and that's when I went out and checked the fuse again which was now blown. Do you think if I disconnected the lights that might locate the problem? I think I may have to recharge the battery also now that I've run it down? What do you think? NOTE: the party I bought the car from said it was a new battery. Thank you guys for your continued input and please excuse my ignorance.

[Drive Shaft Dave]

On the output side of the cutout on the generator, disconnect the yellow wire that leads to the headlight switch, then try to start.

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Gooseloony

Asking for patience guys and I do appreciate your comments. I accept I am way behind most all of you here--hence the reason I am posting and asking for help. I will try to explain as best I can but not being a mechanic, some statements I make may not be how a seasoned mechanic would say it. Anyway, when I say 6v at the fuse holder, it is on the "line" side (without a fuse). I do have the wiring diagram. When I push the starter button on the floor it's trying to start (of course now the battery is going dead from me trying to start it) and that's when I went out and checked the fuse again which was now blown. Do you think if I disconnected the lights that might locate the problem? I think I may have to recharge the battery also now that I've run it down? What do you think? NOTE: the party I bought the car from said it was a new battery. Thank you guys for your continued input and please excuse my ignorance.

NOT A PROBLEM!!! Hang in there.

Based on experience and from the past threads here on the Barn, checking the headlight wiring would be my first move if I were there to help.

[Gooseloony]

Thank you guys. I will try as you both suggested. But being as late as it is I think I will delve into it tomorrow. Would you recommend putting a charger on the battery overnight?

[Mike V. Florida]

Originally Posted by Gooseloony

Thank you guys. I will try as you both suggested. But being as late as it is I think I will delve into it tomorrow. Would you recommend putting a charger on the battery overnight?

I don't like placing one of those big chargers on a battery overnight, trickle charger yes, full charger no.

[Phil]

Hi, yes you need to charge the battery a good charge on the makes trouble shooting easier.
Yes the headlights are easy to develop a short, but if the light switch off there is NO power on in the light buckets. There is always power in the horn and to the light switch, might temporly disconnect the wire from the cutout on the generator to the horn and the one to the light switch. Now all that is hot are the wires needed to make the car run. Replace the fuse (it is 20 amps or more right?) if it runs reliablely the problem lies in lights or horn. If it is still blowing fuse it is in the few wires need to make it run. If this does not get you going send me a private message an we we get together on the phone and talk it through. Phil

[Gooseloony]

Phil that's an awesome offer and I really am stunned someone would go as far as helping to that extent. Before I take you up on the offer I will do as you and Mike suggested. I will let you guys know sometime tomorrow how things worked out. Thank you again, have a good evening.

[tbirdtbird]

1. Take it one step at a time. If you get frustrated, walk away and take a break (you already did that and we all do it).
2. The wiring diagram will be an immense help. Don't let all the wires twist up your brain, trace one wire at a time.
3. The fuse really should be a 30 amp fuse, you will find that is what 95% of us use. Get some spares you are gonna need them.
4. Yes put a charger on the battery. I usually only use a slower type charger that charges about 5 amps; I don't like to use the large booster chargers you can shorten battery life. I also dislike leaving a charger of any type on overnight; there have been fires from doing this. The charger will get hot, be sure it is not on combustible material.
If original positive ground system, put the positive charger lead on a head nut, and the negative lead on the battery cable where it attaches to the starter. Although the battery itself is not close to these connections, there can be sparks when you connect/disconnect the charger leads. It is a good idea in general no matter the car to connect the charger leads with the charger NOT plugged in. When the leads are in place, then plug it in. If wanting to disconnect the charger leads, unplug the charger first. This is because sparks around a battery, especially one that has freshly been charged, can trigger a battery explosion. Once you have seen it happen once you wish you didn't; it will send sulfuric acid all over the place.
5. The major trouble areas have already been identified by the experts: headlites, ammeter, ign switch, junction box on firewall.
6. A good approach to electrical faults for a novice is to disconnect all electrical loads, and then re-connect one at a time, starting with ignition so that it will at least run.
7. To help you with terminology:
-there is 'cranking' which is the starter spinning the motor. This action can take place whether the engine starts (runs) or not
-there is 'firing' which is the sparking of the plugs igniting fuel, this is a distinct and separate sound from cranking; sometimes the motor will sputter, cough, and spit until it actually starts, this is all under the heading of 'firing'
Thus, to say the engine 'will not start' sends very little info to us. Best to say, It won't crank, or it cranks but will not fire. If it both cranks and fires it should start, or better yet, 'run'.

Take it step by step, follow the suggestions from the pros here, and report back after you take each step. The nice thing about this method is that you can actually teach yourself to troubleshoot and learn the car's electrical system, at which point it becomes way more than just a bunch of lines drawn as a wiring diagram.

Mitch, Tom, Mike, etc can be of huge assistance. Good luck.

BTW seems like James Rogers has not posted lately?

Oh, and seek out your local club and join up; those members will be a passionate wealth of info

[Gooseloony]

Thank you tbird, you make great points and suggestions which I will put into action tomorrow. The junction box wiring in the diagram is a little confusing as far as how it looks in mine but will look more into it tomorrow.

[tbirdtbird]

Good. Be aware than a PO may have altered the original wiring diagram due to lack of understanding or trying to add an accessory or something. If the electrical seems mostly original design, it would be best to follow the diagram and return it to its original state. It will be more reliable and easy for you or anyone assisting you to troubleshoot. You may find extraneous wires, poorly crimped wire ends, or other poor workmanship, chafed insulation, etc etc.

Post some pix of your firewall especially in the area of the junction box, and of the fuse block area on top of starter....that will tell us a lot

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would put a charger on the battery right away and leave it on for at least an hour. The more times you discharge a battery, the longer you leave it discharged, and the deeper you discharge the battery, the more you shorten it's life. An hour charge right now will help, then disconnect the charger when you go to bed and put the charger back on when you get up. I like to use a 6 amp Sears charger with an amp meter.

You might have a switch that needs to be replaced. A Model A should start within a few compression strokes, so don't crank for too long if it doesn't start, but instead start trouble shooting. Pull the choke for two or three compression strokes and see if gas drips out the carb. If it does, then you don't have a fuel problem keeping it from firing.

[RandyinUtah]

I have seen this blown fuse problem also traced back to a falty stop light switch.

[Gooseloony]

Haven't forgotten to respond to those who are trying to help. Went out this morning to charge battery and low and behold the charger I have is for 12v, on my way to auto store to get 6v. I did put another fuse in this AM to see if anything happened. Well it did, smoke started coming out the left headlight--quickly went to pull fuse and noticed it was already blown. That headlight may be the culprit. Once I finally get the battery charged I will know more. A question about the battery, (after I installed another fuse), when I turn the key to ON the Ammeter needle goes a little to the right (will try to show photo...I tried but not sure how). And with the key off the other headlight, taillight and horn all work. I "cranked" the engine but appeared the battery wasn't producing enough to turn it over---does that sound like the battery just needs charging (as stated before it is a new battery as PO said). And once again, if my wording is not correct --I am trying to learn here. Thank you for your patient help and later today I should (hopefully) have some more updates.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Yes, your battery needs to be charged ASAP. put a test light across the fuse contacts instead of another new fuse to be blown. Once you find the short, the test light will go out.

Do you have the battery connected with POSITIVE ground? If so then be sure the charger is also connected with the + cable to ground. If the ammeter read on the charge side, when you know it should be discharge, then you can switch the wires to the other side on the rear of the ammeter.

A 6 volt battery charger is best, but you can put a 12 volt bulb in series with one of the 12 volt battery charger clamps going to the battery and charge a 6 volt car battery this way.

[Gooseloony]

Well battery fully charged, fuse installed and working (no short after disconnecting left headlight) but now car won't start. Ammeter reads 6v, has power to coil, cranks but won't turn over. Trying not to run the battery down again, so decided to come in to scratch my head, wondering if I had rocks in my head for purchasing this thing.