Late 31 differences

[ctlikon0712]

I want to start a thread cataloguing all the differences that the late 31’s had, this is a little selfish on my part as my car is made in April. But it should help and enlighten others as well. I have the Judging Standards but they aren’t with me at the moment so I’m not %100 on all this. Therefore thoughts and corrections are welcome. So here goes!

Indented firewall
Fuel shutoff at the firewall
Side bowl carb Zenith 2 & 3
Larger Oil tube and B style filler cap?
Straight pole coil
Exhaust manifold with added matl. At the downturn
Steering column mounted to the dash instead of the tank
Instrument cluster with groove around border of the ridges
Shocks with large ears and arms with HE stamping with thick shoulder at the shock end
Thin wall shock end links (smaller diameter)
Brake backing plates with adjustment boss turned down ¾ around with a flat on top?
Steel, one piece 2 blade fan
Distributer casting had different bosses for the spring straps?
Cast iron brake drums, solid rear and 5 spokes in front
Throttle assembly with conical return spring and column rod pivot, mushroomed or riveted on
Oil pan differences? Splash pan lowered and different drain? Shielded oil pump?

[James Rogers]

I don't think the larger oil fill tube came out till 32 with the larger cap. The hex shaped drain bung was December only but is rightly a late 31 item.

[2manycars]

The fan blade is not one piece, it just has more of the blade exposed to one piece of metal, not a sandwich all the way to the tip like the earlier blades.
Another item worth mentioning is that the late 31 slant windsheild fordors built by Murray and Briggs were essentially the same body, while the earlier straight windshield bodies were very different in the window contour and reveals from Murray to Briggs.

[Kevin in NJ]

What do you consider late? They started changes in April which is not very late and continued to the end or production. This is kind of like defining the 64 1/2 Mustang.

The fan was one piece. They make one stamping and did the fold at the front. Then welded down the edge leaving a single layer outboard the hub.
The originals were 2 pieces welded around the edge.

Indented firewall is not a good indicator of lateness. Late bodies such as the 400A or the 68C were produced with large runs of flat firewalls. The 68C seems to have been the initial production, but the 400A they seemed to start off with indents and then did some flats and then back again.

You would have to walk through parts changes. The brakes went solid brake linings and then cast drums and do not forget the change from flat to wire brake rod springs.

The Fordor bodies are an interesting change over. Here they are planing the switch over to the 32 line and they made the radical change in a body they only produce for 8 months. This had to be a costly change. Did they do it because they wanted to test all metal body manufacturing techniques or because they saved so much money in labor and parts over the built up wood bodies.

Then you have the depression throwing a wrench in the works. By 31 parts are filling up in the warehouses. They work on the first in last out principle. Parts delivered in late 30 might sit in a corner for months till they are hung on the car. They documented a slant fordor with a 30 engine number and the paperwork proved it was built fairly late in 1931. While that car would be judgeable with the early engine number as it is documented when you look at some fairly early numbers on other cars you can not be sure if they were bustard cars made later.

What does this all mean?

If you are doing a late car then follow the JS for your number.

[Kevin in NJ]

What do you consider late? They started changes in April which is not very late and continued to the end or production. This is kind of like defining the 64 1/2 Mustang.

The fan was one piece. They make one stamping and did the fold at the front. Then welded down the edge leaving a single layer outboard the hub.
The originals were 2 pieces welded around the edge.

Indented firewall is not a good indicator of lateness. Late bodies such as the 400A or the 68C were produced with large runs of flat firewalls. The 68C seems to have been the initial production, but the 400A they seemed to start off with indents and then did some flats and then back again.

You would have to walk through parts changes. The brakes went solid brake linings and then cast drums and do not forget the change from flat to wire brake rod springs.

The Fordor bodies are an interesting change over. Here they are planing the switch over to the 32 line and they made the radical change in a body they only produce for 8 months. This had to be a costly change. Did they do it because they wanted to test all metal body manufacturing techniques or because they saved so much money in labor and parts over the built up wood bodies.

Then you have the depression throwing a wrench in the works. By 31 parts are filling up in the warehouses. They work on the first in last out principle. Parts delivered in late 30 might sit in a corner for months till they are hung on the car. They documented a slant fordor with a 30 engine number and the paperwork proved it was built fairly late in 1931. While that car would be judgeable with the early engine number as it is documented when you look at some fairly early numbers on other cars you can not be sure if they were bustard cars made later.

What does this all mean?

If you are doing a late car then follow the JS for your number.

[V4F]

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there is a guy who keeps track of all the late '31's . no sure but i think it is richard black . (texas) . someone please correct me if im wrong . he knows most everytrhing about them ........ steve

[gweilbaker]

They also have thread dust caps on the front hubs, at least mine has them.
GW

[Patrick L.]

Mine was made in May and has:
steel drums, newer throttle assy, dash steering clamp, one piece fan, flat brake rod springs.. I'm pretty sure some of these are original..

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I don't think the larger oil fill tube came out till 32 with the larger cap. The hex shaped drain bung was December only but is rightly a late 31 item.

I am with James with this one. According to "The 1932 Ford Book" (page 5-6) the larger diameter oil fill tube was 100% changed over by May 25th, 1932 (serial number B5081832). The date the change over began was not noted. Early Model B's had a tube the same diameter but slightly longer than the Model A.

Charlie Stephens

[Joop]

"Indented firewall is not a good indicator of lateness. Late bodies such as the 400A or the 68C were produced with large runs of flat firewalls. The 68C seems to have been the initial production, but the 400A they seemed to start off with indents and then did some flats and then back again."



As for the 400A we have 4 known flat fire walls.

#11 none original body tag

#55 With Original body tag

#64 With Original body tag

#1007 None original body tag (number assigned by owner)



It is known that the first pre production ones had the earlier flat fire wall and black 3 hole rearview mirrors and more early features.

So Ford did sell these.

[ctlikon0712]

See, this is exactly the things I wanted to know. Things like wire brake rod springs, threaded dust caps on the front hubs. All good stuff. I did read somewhere that the Oil filler cap was different then... not sure where, I know that they changed the baffles at some point, maybe the cap had a different # of tabs coming through the top or the way it pressed into the tube was different, something....
Steve, do you know how to get ahold of Richard Black? Maybe we could get him to add to this list...
Each of you, I really appreciate the thoughts.
Thanks,

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

Ford had an oil consumption issue they were addressing in mid 1931.
Many evaluations and changes were made to pistons and rings, as well as the oil pan, dipper tray, and oil pump shield.
The addition of oil pan drain holes to the dipper tray, lowered tray, and addition of the oil pump shield were all developed and released in June/July 1931.

The use of the oil pan with the hex drain plug bung began in Production on July 14, 1931 at the Rouge.
The aforementioned pan, tray, and shield changes were already in place at that time.
This info is from my research of drawings and releases at the Benson Ford Archives.
It is also documented in the Engine Production Foreman's daily log books (the handwritten originals he carried in his coat pocket on the shop floor).

Vince, if you could post a picture of this, I sure would like to be proven wrong but, would like to see the proof.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

The proof is in the archives, in the drawings and releases, as well as the Engine Foreman's notebooks (essentially a daily diary, citing the starting and ending engine numbers produced each day, s well as all the special engines, exceptions, or introduction of new parts and changes.) These are also on file at the Benson Ford Archives.

I have also has these research findings posted on my website for years.

NOS Engine Oil Pan on Ford Garage

Model A & B Engine Serial Numbers on Ford Garage

I don't see anything on these pages that is actual proof only hearsay. I would like to see the actual documentation. My problem is I live too far from the Benson to research this. I guess it all comes down to what anyone wants to believe. I don't have any proof to back up my claim just as you don't have any to back up yours. Still up in the air.

[ctlikon0712]

Mr. Rogers, what exactly are you disputing? The Date, the plant where it started or what? Just curious....

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

James
I would like to see the proof you offer as well, but alas, you have none.
You do offer an excuse for not having any though.

If you want to see the proof of my statements, I told you where to find it at the Archives.
I have no plan to spoon feed it to you though.

The facts are hardly hearsay or up in the air.

Your comments are simply your own uninformed hearsay.
My comments are based on my own research of the factual primary source material.

Carry on.

Vince, I definitely do not want to jump between you two but I'm pretty sure the new Standards revisions has stated that pan is a December 1931 only. I have no idea where they found the info or how they summized that but could that be how James has decided it was a December '31 only pan? Again, I am not choosing sides but just offering another perspective.
.

[al's28/33]

let's see some pictures, eh????

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by ctlikon0712

I want to start a thread cataloguing all the differences that the late 31’s had, this is a little selfish on my part as my car is made in April. But it should help and enlighten others as well. I have the Judging Standards but they aren’t with me at the moment so I’m not %100 on all this. Therefore thoughts and corrections are welcome. So here goes!

Indented firewall
Fuel shutoff at the firewall
Side bowl carb Zenith 2 & 3
Larger Oil tube and B style filler cap?
Straight pole coil
Exhaust manifold with added matl. At the downturn
Steering column mounted to the dash instead of the tank
Instrument cluster with groove around border of the ridges
Shocks with large ears and arms with HE stamping with thick shoulder at the shock end
Thin wall shock end links (smaller diameter)
Brake backing plates with adjustment boss turned down ¾ around with a flat on top?
Steel, one piece 2 blade fan
Distributer casting had different bosses for the spring straps?
Cast iron brake drums, solid rear and 5 spokes in front
Throttle assembly with conical return spring and column rod pivot, mushroomed or riveted on
Oil pan differences? Splash pan lowered and different drain? Shielded oil pump?

It would be nice if it was that easy. Unfortunately it isn't. From your list only 5-6 things were exclusive at any given time and those times or beginning dates were all over the map spreading several months. Other items were supplemental/optional designs running concurrent with previous designs.

There are many pieces of the puzzle and many have been documented in materials at your disposal. If you are looking for folks to chime in here and create a list, you can count on entries as accurate as an "AR car" and a "Model C" engine. That isn't to say you won't receive valid info but it will be up to you to figure out what is and isn't valid!

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by fordgarage

James
I would like to see the proof you offer as well, but alas, you have none.
You do offer an excuse for not having any though.
I said I didn't. You are just too arrogant to admit you don't have any
If you want to see the proof of my statements, I told you where to find it at the Archives.
I also, said I can't get to the archives because of distance but, you live there so you could bit I suspect you don't.
I have no plan to spoon feed it to you though.
Spoon feed? You made the claim, I simply asked for your proof
The facts are hardly hearsay or up in the air.
Hearsay would be any statement without proof which, you have none.
Your comments are simply your own uninformed hearsay.
Exactly as I said they were.
My comments are based on my own research of the factual primary source material.
Prove it with documentation. I said I can't.

Carry on.

I won't get into this contest with you I have made my point and will not post to this thread about this again. You are on your own.

[RockHillWill]

In the event that anyone wants to do their own research at the Benson, particularly in the Foremans log, If you go to the rear of the research room, you will note the desk that the attendant sits at. If you ask for the formans log, most of them do not know about it, but it is right behind them on the shelf. It is about chest high on the left side.

[RonC]

Late 31 Model A's as defined by the judging standards are built Sept thru Dec. How about early 32 Model A's?