The Ford Barn

manuelc · 10-19-2010, 09:17 AM

I am in the process of building an 8BA motor for my 40 ford. I have a real nice block that has been cleaned and is in great condition. My question is that it appears that only the exhaust valves have valve seat inserts. It looks as though the intake seat is the block? Is this how they were made? When I send it in for bore and valve work will they cut and install seats where there are none or just grind what is there? (the block?) Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks

joel · 10-19-2010, 10:09 AM

They will cut what is there unless it won't cleanup or have other instructions from you. Hopefully your machine shop has flathead experience and will offer you advice
about what can and should be done.

Ol' Ron · 10-19-2010, 10:32 AM

Not to worry, only the exhaust need the hardened seat. On the 52-3 blocks you should have exhaust seats installed.

Bruce Lancaster · 10-19-2010, 11:24 AM

The late blocks came with 16, 8, and zero seats...apparently they were dropped over a span of time, completely gone on the late passenger engines. I believe they were kept for truck engines...
All the earlies had 16 seats from the late thirties or so, though I have heard that some 59's produced for service after '49 lost the seats.

Russ/40 · 10-19-2010, 12:16 PM

If it were mine, and I had access to them, I would put the later '51 valves and rotators in the intake locations. You could put them in both intake and exhaust for a little added insurance. I believe Patricks and Joblot and maybe Red's carry the rotator type valves and keepers. Rotators help keep the seats clear by allowing the cam to more easily rotate the valves as well as the lifters.

ajohn · 10-19-2010, 12:23 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

Over the years,I have owned and operated about a thousand different collector cars.None have ever had or needed hardened valve seats.Other people I know who have dealt in these cars have the same experience as I.NEVER a burned valve,ever.I believe the hardened valve requirement is an old wive's tale,just as changing brands of oil will cause an engine to burn oil.

manuelc · 10-19-2010, 12:31 PM

Thanks for the advice guys.
I want to upsize the valves to the 1.6 or 1.5 size so do I need seats installed on the intake side?
Thanks again for all the good advice (opinions) guys, I am old but not to old not to listen!

nellis003 · 10-19-2010, 12:42 PM

This is something that's come up a couple times in conversation lately. I'd be curious to hear from anyone who's had burned valves as a result of the newer gas.

Anyone out there running an old car on straight 87 octane, no lead substitute, no stainless seats, who's had the seats burn?

Nick

Bruce Lancaster · 10-19-2010, 12:47 PM

I'd say it depends on whether the existing seats are in good enough shape to be reground without going deep...assuming you want stock valve size.
I have seen engines, '52-3 type, with deep damage in seats possibly due to being run with lots of crud/very poor seating. If going oversize you can just recut, if staying stock seats would be your best bet...
From my point of view, the main advantage of seats is that there is seldom much damage to the originals and valve job is easy without sinking the valve.

Bruce Lancaster · 10-19-2010, 12:51 PM

And seat problems from unleaded seem to be mostly a myth. This was a major panic in about 1975, and though no one seemed to have real issues the panic survived.
The tests that showed damage involved industrial engines producing full power for long periods of time...
In the real world, how often can you hold your car at wide open throttle for more than, say, 15 or 20 seconds without becoming dead or arrested? I think your car would have to be embarrassingly slow.

manuelc · 10-20-2010, 01:25 PM

Thanks for all the help guys. I'm sure I will be back with more questions.

ajohn · 10-20-2010, 06:26 PM

Back in my career days,I had a boss who could burn the valves in ANYTHING!When the speed limit changed to 55mph,they speed him up 10mph.If he had hardened seats in an engine,I believe he would burn the valves anyway.My point is,normal driving will not burn valves under normal conditions.

Russ/40 · 10-20-2010, 07:41 PM

I'll add this, the reason Ford introduced the rotator valve assemblies in '51, was he dropped the seats in the intakes that year.

1952henry · 10-23-2010, 10:47 AM

I have a 1BA block, doesn't appear to be any seats. It has been rebuilt with few miles on it, but I doubt if they were removed.

Russ/40 · 10-23-2010, 12:41 PM

Yup, they discontinued the seats on both I & E.

Bruce Lancaster · 10-25-2010, 04:58 PM

...on passenger car engines.

jake197000 · 03-21-2023, 11:02 AM

back in my early days burnt valves were common mostly caused by short trips and slow speed driving.pulled many heads.

Ol' Ron · 03-22-2023, 07:30 AM

The block was induction hardened in the seat area.
G

pistonbroke · 03-22-2023, 08:37 AM

OK Guys, This is my first hand experience. No BS just what I saw and dealt with. In my 1969 351 W there were no hard seats ,one ext. valve beat its way into the water jacket. The 1953 8BA in my friends 51F1 beat the ext. seats so far down you could see the difference in valve height just looking at it and several burnt valves to boot. Now to be honest that 8BA did have aftermarket valve springs and I'm sure that played a big part in its demise . These old motors don't have much spring pressure from the factory so you might get away with it but I feel old Henry new what he was doing when he put those hard seats in until they started adding lead to our gas. Just my two cents, Tim

Pete · 03-22-2023, 01:30 PM

Old thread but the info doesn't change.
As always, the laws of physics limit some things from happening.

1 - Seat repair rings can only be used with stock or very
slightly oversize valves in a flathead Ford V8 engine.
2 - Seat repair rings are not needed in any flathead Ford V8
engine except for damage repair. Overlapping rings on
adjacent ports should NOT be done.
3 - Supercharged flathead Ford racing engines running 30 lb.
of boost, 100 nitro and making over 800 hp do NOT run
hard seats. (seat rings)

10-19-2010, 09:17 AM	#1
manuelc Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Tracy, Ca. Posts: 18	Valve Seats? I am in the process of building an 8BA motor for my 40 ford. I have a real nice block that has been cleaned and is in great condition. My question is that it appears that only the exhaust valves have valve seat inserts. It looks as though the intake seat is the block? Is this how they were made? When I send it in for bore and valve work will they cut and install seats where there are none or just grind what is there? (the block?) Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

10-19-2010, 10:09 AM	#2
joel Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Indiana Posts: 488	Re: Valve Seats? They will cut what is there unless it won't cleanup or have other instructions from you. Hopefully your machine shop has flathead experience and will offer you advice about what can and should be done.

10-19-2010, 10:32 AM	#3
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Valve Seats? Not to worry, only the exhaust need the hardened seat. On the 52-3 blocks you should have exhaust seats installed.

10-19-2010, 11:24 AM	#4
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Valve Seats? The late blocks came with 16, 8, and zero seats...apparently they were dropped over a span of time, completely gone on the late passenger engines. I believe they were kept for truck engines... All the earlies had 16 seats from the late thirties or so, though I have heard that some 59's produced for service after '49 lost the seats.

10-19-2010, 12:16 PM	#5
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Valve Seats? If it were mine, and I had access to them, I would put the later '51 valves and rotators in the intake locations. You could put them in both intake and exhaust for a little added insurance. I believe Patricks and Joblot and maybe Red's carry the rotator type valves and keepers. Rotators help keep the seats clear by allowing the cam to more easily rotate the valves as well as the lifters.

10-19-2010, 12:23 PM	#6
ajohn Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tyler,TX Posts: 462	Re: Valve Seats? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Over the years,I have owned and operated about a thousand different collector cars.None have ever had or needed hardened valve seats.Other people I know who have dealt in these cars have the same experience as I.NEVER a burned valve,ever.I believe the hardened valve requirement is an old wive's tale,just as changing brands of oil will cause an engine to burn oil.

10-19-2010, 12:31 PM	#7
manuelc Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Tracy, Ca. Posts: 18	Re: Valve Seats? Thanks for the advice guys. I want to upsize the valves to the 1.6 or 1.5 size so do I need seats installed on the intake side? Thanks again for all the good advice (opinions) guys, I am old but not to old not to listen!

10-19-2010, 12:42 PM	#8
nellis003 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chicago Posts: 153	Re: Valve Seats? This is something that's come up a couple times in conversation lately. I'd be curious to hear from anyone who's had burned valves as a result of the newer gas. Anyone out there running an old car on straight 87 octane, no lead substitute, no stainless seats, who's had the seats burn? Nick

10-19-2010, 12:47 PM	#9
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Valve Seats? I'd say it depends on whether the existing seats are in good enough shape to be reground without going deep...assuming you want stock valve size. I have seen engines, '52-3 type, with deep damage in seats possibly due to being run with lots of crud/very poor seating. If going oversize you can just recut, if staying stock seats would be your best bet... From my point of view, the main advantage of seats is that there is seldom much damage to the originals and valve job is easy without sinking the valve.

10-19-2010, 12:51 PM	#10
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Valve Seats? And seat problems from unleaded seem to be mostly a myth. This was a major panic in about 1975, and though no one seemed to have real issues the panic survived. The tests that showed damage involved industrial engines producing full power for long periods of time... In the real world, how often can you hold your car at wide open throttle for more than, say, 15 or 20 seconds without becoming dead or arrested? I think your car would have to be embarrassingly slow.

10-20-2010, 01:25 PM	#11
manuelc Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Tracy, Ca. Posts: 18	Re: Valve Seats? Thanks for all the help guys. I'm sure I will be back with more questions.

10-20-2010, 06:26 PM	#12
ajohn Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tyler,TX Posts: 462	Re: Valve Seats? Back in my career days,I had a boss who could burn the valves in ANYTHING!When the speed limit changed to 55mph,they speed him up 10mph.If he had hardened seats in an engine,I believe he would burn the valves anyway.My point is,normal driving will not burn valves under normal conditions.

10-20-2010, 07:41 PM	#13
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Valve Seats? I'll add this, the reason Ford introduced the rotator valve assemblies in '51, was he dropped the seats in the intakes that year.

10-23-2010, 10:47 AM	#14
1952henry Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: North Dakota Posts: 1,621	Re: Valve Seats? I have a 1BA block, doesn't appear to be any seats. It has been rebuilt with few miles on it, but I doubt if they were removed. __________________ I dig coal, which provides motivation for EVs.

10-23-2010, 12:41 PM	#15
Russ/40 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee, California Posts: 3,505	Re: Valve Seats? Yup, they discontinued the seats on both I & E.

10-25-2010, 04:58 PM	#16
Bruce Lancaster Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Madison, NJ Posts: 5,230	Re: Valve Seats? ...on passenger car engines.

03-21-2023, 11:02 AM	#17
jake197000 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 350	Re: Valve Seats? back in my early days burnt valves were common mostly caused by short trips and slow speed driving.pulled many heads.

03-22-2023, 07:30 AM	#18
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: Valve Seats? The block was induction hardened in the seat area. G

03-22-2023, 08:37 AM	#19
pistonbroke Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2021 Location: Perry Mo. Posts: 485	Re: Valve Seats? OK Guys, This is my first hand experience. No BS just what I saw and dealt with. In my 1969 351 W there were no hard seats ,one ext. valve beat its way into the water jacket. The 1953 8BA in my friends 51F1 beat the ext. seats so far down you could see the difference in valve height just looking at it and several burnt valves to boot. Now to be honest that 8BA did have aftermarket valve springs and I'm sure that played a big part in its demise . These old motors don't have much spring pressure from the factory so you might get away with it but I feel old Henry new what he was doing when he put those hard seats in until they started adding lead to our gas. Just my two cents, Tim

03-22-2023, 01:30 PM	#20
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,409	Re: Valve Seats? Old thread but the info doesn't change. As always, the laws of physics limit some things from happening. 1 - Seat repair rings can only be used with stock or very slightly oversize valves in a flathead Ford V8 engine. 2 - Seat repair rings are not needed in any flathead Ford V8 engine except for damage repair. Overlapping rings on adjacent ports should NOT be done. 3 - Supercharged flathead Ford racing engines running 30 lb. of boost, 100 nitro and making over 800 hp do NOT run hard seats. (seat rings)