The Ford Barn

old31 · 08-09-2023, 07:31 AM

What would cause a lack of rpm when the advance is advanced. The rpms do not increase as you would expect. The car actually runs worse with even 1/2 to 1" of advance.

I have tried a different dist body that has different body cutouts, different length of advance rods, checked the timing gear teeth, and turned the steering column with no changes.

Compression 68 62 50 60

Pertronix electronic ignition.

The car starts great, idles good and is timed perfectly.

Dr Foot · 08-09-2023, 07:46 AM

How long has this lack of response been going on?

Bob Bidonde · 08-09-2023, 08:32 AM

Fault is in the electronic ignition. The Ignitor is not reading the advance of the distributor shaft.

Phil Brown · 08-09-2023, 10:08 AM

Try a distributor with an old set of points in it if you can, if it runs better or ok then that probably confirms what Bob said

old31 · 08-09-2023, 10:19 AM

Bob, other than installing points, do you know of any test that can be done on the Pertronix?

Flathead · 08-09-2023, 12:59 PM

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If that is possibly a Pertronix side effect it seems kind of unfortunate.

Chuck Sea/Tac · 08-09-2023, 01:14 PM

“When the advance is advanced” seems to indicate a manual advance ignition? Is this true?

Y-Blockhead · 08-09-2023, 02:35 PM

Sounds like the initial timing is too far advanced to me. Then you manually advance it more and it is advanced too far and she's not liking it.

goldie · 08-09-2023, 08:05 PM

I have the Pertronix on the A and my other classic cars, never had a failure just set it and forget it. When I got the A a year ago the Pertronix was one of the first changes I made. Timing of the A seemed a hit-and-miss proposition to me. Using a test light or NuRex wrench got you in the ballpark I think, you more experienced guys may know better than I? I installed the timing scale that allowed me to use a timing light and set to an exact number whatever that may be. I believe the black Pertrinix module is just an on-and-off switch a dumb one at that. The red version is the smart one that will do more functions.
What is the perfect timing? I have come to believe that no two Model As are the same?

David in San Antonio · 08-09-2023, 11:13 PM

As a newbie it seemed to me that the large range of manual advance/retard would make the initial timing less critical. You can home in on the optimal advance using the lever and feeling how the engine responds. Am I missing something? I’d love to understand my Model A better.

goldie · 08-09-2023, 11:48 PM

David, you make a valid point but I think an accurate starting point is necessary. In my case, it may be more critical because I am using the NuRex spark advance unit. It is my belief that this unit does a better job of setting advance than I can manually even though it is not perfect. If my initial advance is not correct the NuRex will over or under advance. As it stands I find under full throttle I have to manually advance a couple of clicks more.
I have read that a high compression like mine at 100psi. requires less advance, My initial advance is set at 2 deg. ATDC and has worked well for me.

Y-Blockhead · 08-10-2023, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David in San Antonio

As a newbie it seemed to me that the large range of manual advance/retard would make the initial timing less critical. You can home in on the optimal advance using the lever and feeling how the engine responds. Am I missing something? I’d love to understand my Model A better.

Think about it. If your timing is already set too advanced with the lever all the way in the retard position, how are you going to adjust your timing except to advance it even more?

old31 · 08-10-2023, 10:57 AM

Well, I thought that Bob B was on to something in regards to Pertronix not seeing the advance, so I took my spare Pertronix and installed it. That did not make any difference with the advance and rpm.

I even took it for a ride with a loose steering column so that I could turn it and work the advance at the same time. That made no difference.

I will install points and test it.

I AM STUMMPED

katy · 08-10-2023, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by goldie

Timing of the A seemed a hit-and-miss proposition to me. Using a test light or NuRex wrench got you in the ballpark I think, you more experienced guys may know better than I?

I set the timing using the Ford method; with the point gap set, spark lever all the way up, the timing pin in the dimple of the timing gear the points are set to just starting to open. Works every time. Was taught this back in the '50s. YMMV

nkaminar · 08-10-2023, 01:06 PM

I have not had very good luck with electronic ignition. A lot of people swear by them but not me. I went back to the mechanical points and condensor. Although I do use V8 points and condensor.

old31 · 08-10-2023, 01:18 PM

NK, what are the differences with the v8 points vs the standard?

I am a huge proponent of electronic vs points. No condenser to go bad, nothing to adjust.

Think about it, American auto makes have been using electronic since the 80's. When was the last time your new or antique car died due to the electronics.

nkaminar · 08-10-2023, 07:19 PM

Last month. Not my car but my friend Ted. He was returning from a trip to Utah from California in his Model A when the electronic ignition module failed. He caries a spare distributor, with mechanical points, and put that in to continue home.

Several years ago I tried an electronic ignition module and the car developed a miss. I put the mechanical points back in and the miss went away. I followed the wiring instructions.

My present Model A came with electronic distributor with automatic advance and I was not happy with its performance. I switched to a stock distributor and the performance was greatly improved. To be fair it was probably the advance curve that was wrong.

Regarding V8 points. My stock Model A that I drove in high school had Ford factory ignition parts and i did not have to change the points or condensor for the decade and many miles I drove it. But another car I owned had after market points and condensor which had a very short life. The V8 parts, in my experience, are better quality than the repro points and condensors available today. That may not be the case with all repro parts available, just the ones that I bought.

Like I said, many people are happy with electronic ignition systems. But I have not had very good luck with them.

Dr Foot · 08-11-2023, 08:09 AM

Vacuum leak?

Flathead · 08-11-2023, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old31

Well, I thought that Bob B was on to something in regards to Pertronix not seeing the advance, so I took my spare Pertronix and installed it. That did not make any difference with the advance and rpm.

I even took it for a ride with a loose steering column so that I could turn it and work the advance at the same time. That made no difference.

I will install points and test it.

I AM STUMMPED

Testing it with the points and condenser should help to solve this.

Ruth · 08-11-2023, 05:18 PM

I would install stock type points and condenser and test it.

The Master Cylinder · 08-11-2023, 06:38 PM

Have y'all tried removing the Pertorix and using points?

Y-Blockhead · 08-11-2023, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Brown

Try a distributor with an old set of points in it if you can, if it runs better or ok then that probably confirms what Bob said

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkaminar

I have not had very good luck with electronic ignition. A lot of people swear by them but not me. I went back to the mechanical points and condensor. Although I do use V8 points and condensor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flathead

Testing it with the points and condenser should help to solve this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruth

I would install stock type points and condenser and test it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Master Cylinder

Have y'all tried removing the Pertorix and using points?

Has anyone suggest trying points yet?

Banditorama · 08-11-2023, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old31

NK, what are the differences with the v8 points vs the standard?

I am a huge proponent of electronic vs points. No condenser to go bad, nothing to adjust.

Think about it, American auto makes have been using electronic since the 80's. When was the last time your new or antique car died due to the electronics.

I've experienced more sensor/module issues in my "newer" cars than any mechanical faults. My old 93 Mustangs PCM failed due to electrolytic capacitor failure

I don't even know where to start with my TDI VW. That thing has been a nightmare. Those Germans seem to love burying the most failure prone sensors as deep under everything as they can.

Pete · 08-12-2023, 12:49 AM

Do you know exactly how much advance you have when adjusting various things?
Different engines require different advance curves and amounts depending what modifications have been done or not done.

If you haven't already, get some timing tape and get ready to install it on your front pulley, then get a timing light. Next, determine where top dead center on #1 cylinder is by using the timing pin in the cam gear cover. DO NOT TURN THE ENGINE FROM HERE ON.
Now make a pointer to install under one of the front cover bolts. Put it so you will be able to see it easily with the timing light shining on it. Now install the tape with the ZERO exactly under the pointer. This is top center and you will be reading degrees advance or retard at this point in relation to the tape on the pulley. You will probably have to re-calibrate the pointer if you ever remove it.

Now fire up the engine and observe where the timing is set and if it advances and how much, with rpm.

All of this won't cure the problem you are having but it will enable you to know what is actually going on when you change something.

08-09-2023, 07:46 AM	#2
Dr Foot Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 17	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 How long has this lack of response been going on?

08-09-2023, 08:32 AM	#3
Bob Bidonde Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 3,470	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Fault is in the electronic ignition. The Ignitor is not reading the advance of the distributor shaft. __________________ Bob Bidonde Last edited by Bob Bidonde; 08-09-2023 at 08:38 AM.

08-09-2023, 10:08 AM	#4
Phil Brown Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Santee Calif. Posts: 509	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Try a distributor with an old set of points in it if you can, if it runs better or ok then that probably confirms what Bob said

08-09-2023, 10:19 AM	#5
old31 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 2,101	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Bob, other than installing points, do you know of any test that can be done on the Pertronix?

08-09-2023, 12:59 PM	#6
Flathead Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 1,499	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) If that is possibly a Pertronix side effect it seems kind of unfortunate.

08-09-2023, 07:31 AM	#1
old31 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 2,101	Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 What would cause a lack of rpm when the advance is advanced. The rpms do not increase as you would expect. The car actually runs worse with even 1/2 to 1" of advance. I have tried a different dist body that has different body cutouts, different length of advance rods, checked the timing gear teeth, and turned the steering column with no changes. Compression 68 62 50 60 Pertronix electronic ignition. The car starts great, idles good and is timed perfectly. Last edited by old31; 08-09-2023 at 04:08 PM.

08-09-2023, 01:14 PM	#7
Chuck Sea/Tac Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Between Seattle & Tacoma Posts: 2,354	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 “When the advance is advanced” seems to indicate a manual advance ignition? Is this true?

08-09-2023, 02:35 PM	#8
Y-Blockhead Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Redondo Beach, CA Posts: 5,849	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Sounds like the initial timing is too far advanced to me. Then you manually advance it more and it is advanced too far and she's not liking it.

08-09-2023, 08:05 PM	#9
goldie Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 25	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 I have the Pertronix on the A and my other classic cars, never had a failure just set it and forget it. When I got the A a year ago the Pertronix was one of the first changes I made. Timing of the A seemed a hit-and-miss proposition to me. Using a test light or NuRex wrench got you in the ballpark I think, you more experienced guys may know better than I? I installed the timing scale that allowed me to use a timing light and set to an exact number whatever that may be. I believe the black Pertrinix module is just an on-and-off switch a dumb one at that. The red version is the smart one that will do more functions. What is the perfect timing? I have come to believe that no two Model As are the same?

08-09-2023, 11:13 PM	#10
David in San Antonio Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2022 Location: San Antonio Texas Posts: 222	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 As a newbie it seemed to me that the large range of manual advance/retard would make the initial timing less critical. You can home in on the optimal advance using the lever and feeling how the engine responds. Am I missing something? I’d love to understand my Model A better. __________________ David in San Antonio 1930 ('31?) Deluxe "Wretched Roadster" Restored 1957 Alamo A’s Club

08-09-2023, 11:48 PM	#11
goldie Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2022 Posts: 25	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 David, you make a valid point but I think an accurate starting point is necessary. In my case, it may be more critical because I am using the NuRex spark advance unit. It is my belief that this unit does a better job of setting advance than I can manually even though it is not perfect. If my initial advance is not correct the NuRex will over or under advance. As it stands I find under full throttle I have to manually advance a couple of clicks more. I have read that a high compression like mine at 100psi. requires less advance, My initial advance is set at 2 deg. ATDC and has worked well for me.

08-10-2023, 10:57 AM	#13
old31 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 2,101	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Well, I thought that Bob B was on to something in regards to Pertronix not seeing the advance, so I took my spare Pertronix and installed it. That did not make any difference with the advance and rpm. I even took it for a ride with a loose steering column so that I could turn it and work the advance at the same time. That made no difference. I will install points and test it. I AM STUMMPED

08-10-2023, 01:06 PM	#15
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 I have not had very good luck with electronic ignition. A lot of people swear by them but not me. I went back to the mechanical points and condensor. Although I do use V8 points and condensor. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

08-10-2023, 01:18 PM	#16
old31 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 2,101	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 NK, what are the differences with the v8 points vs the standard? I am a huge proponent of electronic vs points. No condenser to go bad, nothing to adjust. Think about it, American auto makes have been using electronic since the 80's. When was the last time your new or antique car died due to the electronics.

08-10-2023, 07:19 PM	#17
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,897	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Last month. Not my car but my friend Ted. He was returning from a trip to Utah from California in his Model A when the electronic ignition module failed. He caries a spare distributor, with mechanical points, and put that in to continue home. Several years ago I tried an electronic ignition module and the car developed a miss. I put the mechanical points back in and the miss went away. I followed the wiring instructions. My present Model A came with electronic distributor with automatic advance and I was not happy with its performance. I switched to a stock distributor and the performance was greatly improved. To be fair it was probably the advance curve that was wrong. Regarding V8 points. My stock Model A that I drove in high school had Ford factory ignition parts and i did not have to change the points or condensor for the decade and many miles I drove it. But another car I owned had after market points and condensor which had a very short life. The V8 parts, in my experience, are better quality than the repro points and condensors available today. That may not be the case with all repro parts available, just the ones that I bought. Like I said, many people are happy with electronic ignition systems. But I have not had very good luck with them. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past. Last edited by nkaminar; 08-10-2023 at 07:33 PM.

08-11-2023, 08:09 AM	#18
Dr Foot Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 17	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Vacuum leak?

08-11-2023, 05:18 PM	#20
Ruth Senior Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Glide, Oregon Posts: 1,339	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 I would install stock type points and condenser and test it. __________________ Ruth "Sometimes you really DO need to read the whole thread"

08-11-2023, 06:38 PM	#21
The Master Cylinder Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 886	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Have y'all tried removing the Pertorix and using points? __________________ The Master Cylinder Enjoying life at the beach in SoCal...

08-12-2023, 12:49 AM	#24
Pete Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Wa. Posts: 5,409	Re: Advance lack of response on RPM on a 31 Do you know exactly how much advance you have when adjusting various things? Different engines require different advance curves and amounts depending what modifications have been done or not done. If you haven't already, get some timing tape and get ready to install it on your front pulley, then get a timing light. Next, determine where top dead center on #1 cylinder is by using the timing pin in the cam gear cover. DO NOT TURN THE ENGINE FROM HERE ON. Now make a pointer to install under one of the front cover bolts. Put it so you will be able to see it easily with the timing light shining on it. Now install the tape with the ZERO exactly under the pointer. This is top center and you will be reading degrees advance or retard at this point in relation to the tape on the pulley. You will probably have to re-calibrate the pointer if you ever remove it. Now fire up the engine and observe where the timing is set and if it advances and how much, with rpm. All of this won't cure the problem you are having but it will enable you to know what is actually going on when you change something.