Rear wheel bearing woes

[BobbyG]

Just bought this car - so bear with me.

Although it is a lovely looking car - I do have a few issues with the mechanics which I am slowly getting sorted.

One such issue is the rear passenger side wheel, I noticed it has a lot of movement and hoped that perhaps the wheel nuts were loose.

Had a spare hour this afternoon - so popped down to the shed and whipped the wheel and drum off.

First cause for concern is that it was dry - no grease at all !
Secondly the smooth cone shaped axle shaft thet the bearing sits on is loose - in fact it rattles about quite a bit.

I am presuming that there is/was a bearing just inside the axle tube ??

Can anyone give me some more info or point me to an info source.

Bob

[Tom Wesenberg]

The bearing and taper of the rear wheel hub is what locates the end of the axle. Without the hub and bearing in place it is normal for the axle to flop about in the axle tube.

[Marco Tahtaras]

The hub has a large bearing inside which rides on the large axle housing bearing surface. The axle taper must be clean and dry as must the taper inside the hub. Hopefully there was an axle key in place along the taper.

Your description of removing the drum sounds like it didn't require a puller to separate the tapers. If that's the case then the drum/hub was certainly looser than it should be. Hopefully it wasn't loose enough to cause a wobble as that would indicate it's likely the tapers on both the axle and inside hub are damaged from being run that way.

[BobbyG]

Thanks chaps - cleaned it up and put it all back on and tightened the hub nut and it is not loose anymore.

Am I right in thinking that hub nut should be tightened to secure bearing carrier -- then backed off so that the hub turns easily and positioned for the split pin on the castellated nut ?

Bob

[[email protected]]

My personal rule of thumb for castellated nuts on the rear axle is to NEVER back them off to put in the cotter key (split pin). The rear axle to hub should be as tight as you can go with your normal wrenches. There has been past discussions on FB of guys going all the way up to 175 # torque. The popular Model A restoration books are typically recommending to go to around 100 # torque. Anyway it has to be on their tight.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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Originally Posted by BobbyG

Thanks chaps - cleaned it up and put it all back on and tightened the hub nut and it is not loose anymore.

Am I right in thinking that hub nut should be tightened to secure bearing carrier -- then backed off so that the hub turns easily and positioned for the split pin on the castellated nut ?

Bob

That is the way to do it on the front ONLY, but the rear axle nut needs to be very tight, and as Marco said the taper of the axle and hub must be clean and dry. The taper supplies much of the grip to move the car, as well as the key.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by BobbyG

Thanks chaps - cleaned it up and put it all back on and tightened the hub nut and it is not loose anymore.

Am I right in thinking that hub nut should be tightened to secure bearing carrier -- then backed off so that the hub turns easily and positioned for the split pin on the castellated nut ?

Bob

The hub must be LOCKED SOLID to the axle shaft meaning the nut must be TIGHT! Did it have the axle key in place so the hub cannot spin on the axle? If you don't fully tighten the castle nut you will eventually shear that axle key and find yourself stranded as the axle will spin inside the hub and the car will not move.

[BobbyG]

Oooh glad I asked !!

Axle key is in place - yes.
When you say DRY are we saying that I do not grease the bearings ???

[Jazzjr]

Yes Hand pack the bearing with Wheel Bearing Grease while you have the Hub off the Axle Housing. Or use a grease gun on the fitting behind the backing Plate, after you reinstall the Drum. I do both when I have the Drum off.

What needs to be dry, is the end of the Axle with the Taper where the Key is inserted into , and the end of the Drum which is also Tapered inside. Also install the Fiber Washer called Axle Hub Gasket A-4244, next Axle Washers, then thread the Axle Nut and Tighten real tight insert cotter pin.
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/670

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by BobbyG

Oooh glad I asked !!

Axle key is in place - yes.
When you say DRY are we saying that I do not grease the bearings ???

You seem to be confusing components. Below is the LARGE bearing you will find inside the hub behind the grease seal. YES, this must be greased. The AXLE TAPER as well as it's mating surface deep inside the hub must be clean a dry. The axle shaft never comes close to, or has anything to do with the bearing.

[Napa Skip]

Hand pack the rear hub bearing as mentioned elsewhere in this thread; wipe the axle taper, axle key, axle key slot and inside tapered mating surface in the rear hub; insert rear hub bearing and new seal/seal retainer ring into hub; install hub onto axle with a tight fitting axle key in place (ensure smaller end of key faces down into axle keyway and "points" towards the differential); install fiber washer, axle washer and castellated nut and torque to (my choice; I don't believe Ford specified a torque value) at least 100 ft-lbs + whatever is necessary to align castellated nut and axle cotter pin slot; install cotter pin; install wheel and adjust brakes if necessary and drive Model A.

I usually double check the axle nut torque after 200 miles (or whenever I finally remember).

In my experience, having done this a couple of times over the last 30+ something years, torquing to 100+ ft-lbs as you're looking at those fine threads while leaning on your torque wrench (with or without spots appearing before your eyes) can be a disconcerting experience but (knock wood) I've never stripped an axle (yet).

I also seem to recall that the axle nuts are hardened, so don't use just any ol' nut (if this last comment - or anything else i've said is not correct - I'm certain others, more knowledgable than I, will chime in).

[Kevin in NJ]

The axle taper needs to be inspected. Does it have concentric rings on it from spinning inside the hub part? Does it have galled metal from movement? Look in the key slot at the bottom corners, do they looked cracked?

Look inside the hub at the taper. Does it look smooth or does it have concentric rings or galling?

If either side is not smooth it may not fully seat tight. You may have to carefully dress the metal to take of any high spots and leaving the base metal.

If the axle is cracked in the base of the key then you need to consider replacing the axle.

How are the threads on the end of the axle? Does the nut have a snug fit or is it sloppy? Run a file on the nut, it should be so hard that a file barely makes a mark. If it files easy then someone put a common nut on the end and you must find an original nut. Keep in mind Ford made these nuts very very hard so they could be torqued down hard.

Where the bearing rides on the axle housing. Wipe off the bottom and look at its condition. Is it shiny and smooth, smooth but worn or pitted?

Sorry if the above is confusing, but there are a bunch of subtle and not so subtle issues that always need to be considered when evaluating the Model A axle ends.

[BobbyG]

Yep got it sorted today - could not have solved this one without the help of you guys not only answering my questions but looking in and telling me twice !!

Most appreciated thanks all.

Next job is master cylinder overhaul.

Bob

[1931 flamingo]

M/cyl o/haul?? Is this your avitar?? If so, pictures please.........looks neat ! !
Paul in CT

[BobbyG]

Hi Paul in CT - Yes it has 40's Ford hydraulic brakes.

Pictures are in my album - it is a 28 A special coupe - running 34 front axle - 37 flattie

bob

[1931 flamingo]

SWEET ! ! ! !

Paul in CT

[Hook]

Thanks for all the insight! My rear axle nuts were about as tight as you would make the front nuts, very loose. Fortunately it hadn't been driven much since the "restoration" before I bought her. How do you get the axle nuts tight with the wheel off? Do you put the car in gear in order to tighten the nuts? Probably a dumb question that will appear obvious once you guys give me the clue, but I noticed when taking the nuts off the hub and axle would turn easily.
thanks,
Larry

[Tom Wesenberg]

Put it in first gear and block the wheels. One rear wheel needs to be installed and on the ground. Otherwise, if you have a helper, just have them step on the brakes.