Cam/Lifter uh-oh Part II

[Ol' Ron]

You might have a discussion with the builder?? Bring Bubba with you. AS an engine builder, I stood behind all my builds, he should too.

[flatjack9]

Originally Posted by Bored&Stroked

Well that sucks . . . guess you'll be doing the next one, the right way. This is exactly why I only have one place that I trust with my machine work and why I assemble everything myself - it is all that attention to detail that matters in the end. Good luck going forward!

Exactly. Trusting your machinist is a must. I'm lucky in that my first trusted machinist had a stoke and had to retire. I was passed on to another who is equably as good.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

You might have a discussion with the builder?? Bring Bubba with you. AS an engine builder, I stood behind all my builds, he should too.

Hi Ron, could not have said it any better, it's for this exact reason we dyno EVERY Flathead we build?

I've put it up here before, we will still do all the machining for anyone carrying the parts out the door, but we will not be standing behind it once someone else does the assembly. This is the way it is here and so far not one single customer or engine related issue!

We cannot build/ship any unit any great distances and leave a good customer "out on a limb", has not ever and never will happen here. I just recently passed on a build here (a member up here) due to the fact I couldn't get it on the dyno.

If all the best parts have been used and they get through our dyno room with no problems, we believe they could do 100,000 trouble-free miles?, and have a bunch of extra power to boot. Nominally speaking 150+ HP and 260+ Torque (on most N/A strokers).

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The build in my signature below here now has (I believe) over 35,000 miles on it now and runs like the day it did on the dyno over 6 years ago! It is also no "trailer-queen", it gets driven to most events including the "James Dean" run in Indiana, the ride is based here in N.Y.! Belongs to a very good/long time friend of mine!

[revkev6]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi Ron, could not have said it any better, it's for this exact reason we dyno EVERY Flathead we build?

I've put it up here before, we will still do all the machining for anyone carrying the parts out the door, but we will not be standing behind it once someone else does the assembly. This is the way it is here and so far not one single customer or engine related issue!

We cannot build/ship any unit any great distances and leave a good customer "out on a limb", has not ever and never will happen here. I just recently passed on a build here (a member up here) due to the fact I couldn't get it on the dyno.

If all the best parts have been used and they get through our dyno room with no problems, we believe they could do 100,000 trouble-free miles?, and have a bunch of extra power to boot. Nominally speaking 150+ HP and 260+ Torque (on most N/A strokers).

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The build in my signature below here now has (I believe) over 35,000 miles on it now and runs like the day it did on the dyno over 6 years ago! It is also no "trailer-queen", it gets driven to most events including the "James Dean" run in Indiana, the ride is based here in N.Y.! Belongs to a very good/long time friend of mine!

gary, since you dyno your motors I was wondering what you see for power with a bigger motor on average. the hotrod intake shootout from 2012 that put what looks to me to be a well built but unported 284 cube motor with 4 1/8 stroke and a H&H cam running from the mid 170's with a good 2x2 up close to the 200hp mark with 3x2's... are we seeing some "hidden" work in the motor that H&H brought to the dyno to make these numbers or do yours reflect this as well?? I'd like to build a big inch 59a motor with an edelbrock slingshot... which seems to do really well overall with broad power and torque. plus it mounts the standard generator and looks the part!

btw, what's a 30 over 8ba look like on the dyno with edelbrock heads and a standard offy 2x2 running an isky 77b cam??

sorry to pick your brain here... mine runs in circles with this stuff

[Ol' Ron]

I think dyno numbers are inflated to suit the owner/builder. I can't come any where the numbers that most people get. My standad "276" Got about 140 hp my Hydro engine 175 @ 4800. Ron H blown 294 235 @ 4500. Other builders that have dynoed these engine have asked methe same wuestion, why the low numbers.
It's simple, it takes AIR to make HP. The more cubs, the more AIR, the higher the revs, the more AIR. If you want HP, use a blower.

[GOSFAST]

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gary, since you dyno your motors I was wondering what you see for power with a bigger motor on average. the hotrod intake shootout from 2012 that put what looks to me to be a well built but unported 284 cube motor with 4 1/8 stroke and a H&H cam running from the mid 170's with a good 2x2 up close to the 200hp mark with 3x2's... are we seeing some "hidden" work in the motor that H&H brought to the dyno to make these numbers or do yours reflect this as well??

Ans: Hi "kev", we dyno test units sometimes all day long here, I would NOT believe any posted dyno numbers anywhere unless we took possession of the unit and tested it here! I can safely say this however, on a N/A Flathead showing a "nominal" 200 HP number on a dyno I suspect you'd be looking in the $15,000.00 range or thereabouts. It would take some very "deep-pockets" but would be entirely doable. A build of this nature would include larger valves, porting, a bunch of L/W parts, etc. Possibly even a race-oriented "vacuum-pump"?? Besides the HP number it needs have some longevity, you don't want 200 HP for a month or two??

I'd like to build a big inch 59a motor with an edelbrock slingshot... which seems to do really well overall with broad power and torque. plus it mounts the standard generator and looks the part!

Ans: We consider this a more "conventional" build by today's standards.

btw, what's a 30 over 8ba look like on the dyno with edelbrock heads and a standard offy 2x2 running an isky 77b cam??

Ans: Way too many variables to even guess at a HP number based on your question alone. Just about every (decent) Flathead, we're not talking an "old-fashioned" rebuild here, we use ONLY "moly" rings and generally a "light-weight" ring pack (1.5, 1.5, 3.0)! This "frees" up a bunch of HP.

There are a few procedures we do here that I believe we MAY possibly be the only shop in the country performing, one being the "pinning" the heads and gaskets to the block using some 1/4" SBC head pins (this is done on a CNC mill, dead accurate on every different unit), another is finish-honing ALL Flathead blocks (and others) with a deck-mounted block plate, this is a tool we CNC'd in house. It is used to do the "pinning" also. This "duplicates" having the bores finished as if the head bolts were torqued in place. This we know yields HP with a better ring seal. With the "metric-moly" rings and block-plate finish the rings are already seated by the time it's off the dyno.

(Add) Hi Ron, excellent post directly above here as usual, we know the "sharp" guys up here. "Inflated numbers", once more, it don't get any more acccurate!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. If anyone up here is friends with or knows the owner of the ride in my signature all it would take is a simple phone call to him, he's been a very close friend for over 40 years now. Here's a few more shots of his build. Most customers ask to leave their builds "unpainted", this is why the block is still "bare" in the photo here.

[Tim Ayers]

After reading this thread and others (I don't want to hi-jack, but I guess I am), I wish I knew more before I bought my pistons/ring set. I have a Ross set with their cast iron rings. I now wish I bought the set with the metric ring packs. I guess I can sell my set and purchase the metric set. Dang it! I hate doing things twice.

[flatheadmurre]

Lot´s of talk about ring packs going on...so what´s the total friction of the rings in an engine ??
How much do you win in percentage with a low tension coated version ??
Just gapping a ring pack raises the effiency of the engine so when comparing an off the shelf to a filefit that has to be taken into the picture to.
So what do you gain 10hp on a fully built engine ??
Just for comparsion...what do you gain from adressing oil windage...equal what you get from rings ??

[revkev6]

thanks Gary. I have heard the 200hp mark is a hard target in a NA flathead so I was dubious of the hotrod article. talking to someone else that dynos his own motors is a good litmus test. I know dyno variances as I used to build autocraft VW race motors.

here is how hotrod described the test engine:

The Test Engine
The test mule was H&H’s most popular Ford flathead engine combo—a 1⁄8-inch-over, 1⁄8-inch-stroker that, with its 3.313-inch bore x 4.125-inch stroke, displaced 284 ci. The engine was stuffed with good internals, including Ross forged pistons, Scat forged H-beam rods, and a Scat cast crank held in place by steel main caps. With 280 degrees advertised duration, 0.380-inch lift, and a 111-degree lobe-separation angle, H&H’s custom solid cam was plugged in straight-up, actuating 1.5/1.5-inch Manley Pro-Flow stainless valves via hollow-body adjustable lifters and Isky springs. The valves close against unleaded fuel–compatible, hardened, replaceable seats and ride in one-piece valve guides. With H&H’s own Navarro 65cc, high-compression aluminum heads, compression comes in around 8.8:1. An MSD ready-to-run, all-electronic distributor fires the plugs. Center-dump Red’s Headers exhaust the spent mixture. A Melling standard oil-pump and stock-truck 5-quart oil pan filled with Valvoline VR1 Racing 20W-50 oil keeps everything alive.


to me nothing in that build lists anything exotic. sounds like a stroker "kit", good valve job with good but not exotic performance oriented equipment installed. I would like to spend the time to lightly port it, machine the heads nicely etc. make it a strong street build but not a temperamental race motor. what do you figure the metric rings gain??

btw, the 8ba I currently have has the cast 4 ring pistons, mallory dual point ignition dual 97's and stock type valves. this motor is coming apart soon to have a health inspection after 25 years on the road. she burns a little coolant, leaks a lot and needs the valves adjusted. other than that it's a solid motor that will go back together as is unless I find some unexpected suprises.

but... again sorry to hijack.

[Ol' Ron]

Has anyone read JWL's book? The HP readings in that book sets standards for our flatheads.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

After reading this thread and others (I don't want to hi-jack, but I guess I am), I wish I knew more before I bought my pistons/ring set. I have a Ross set with their cast iron rings. I now wish I bought the set with the metric ring packs. I guess I can sell my set and purchase the metric set. Dang it! I hate doing things twice.

Ans: It's not that simple to change the ring pack, I'm certain you have a 3/32", 3/32", 5/32" ring pack now??

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

Lot´s of talk about ring packs going on...so what´s the total friction of the rings in an engine ??
How much do you win in percentage with a low tension coated version ??
Just gapping a ring pack raises the effiency of the engine so when comparing an off the shelf to a filefit that has to be taken into the picture to.
So what do you gain 10hp on a fully built engine ??
Just for comparsion...what do you gain from adressing oil windage...equal what you get from rings ??

Ans: We suspect "closer to and maybe even more than" a 20 HP gain using the "moly/metric ring pack", the block-plate honing, and the correct bore finish! (But mostly just that ring pack)

Originally Posted by revkev6

thanks Gary. I have heard the 200hp mark is a hard target in a NA flathead so I was dubious of the hotrod article. talking to someone else that dynos his own motors is a good litmus test. I know dyno variances as I used to build autocraft VW race motors.

Hi "kev", could you just expand a bit on the VW engine. If you like you can P.M. me, just curious about that one. Was it a sort of conventional VW engine from the '60's/'70's? If so I can pass along some interesting info from the very early '70's and one very specific VW racecar.

Thanks Gary in N.Y.

P.S. On a side note, I'm really surprised about some of the issues you guys encounter beforehand with engine builds in the field with ALL the information available just on this site alone? I have trouble getting past it! There's very little that has NOT been covered up here, there's literally a "wealth of knowledge" to be gotten up here for many, myself included! I'm still learning today. Please don't take this as a "knock" on anyone, it's by no means at all meant that way. I will also give you this, good machinist's are a "dying breed" today? I see it all the time on incoming work!

[revkev6]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Ans: It's not that simple to change the ring pack, I'm certain you have a 3/32", 3/32", 5/32" ring pack now??



Ans: We suspect "closer to and maybe even more than" a 20 HP gain using the "moly/metric ring pack", the block-plate honing, and the correct bore finish! (But mostly just that ring pack)



Hi "kev", could you just expand a bit on the VW engine. If you like you can P.M. me, just curious about that one. Was it a sort of conventional VW engine from the '60's/'70's? If so I can pass along some interesting info from the very early '70's and one very specific VW racecar.

Thanks Gary in N.Y.

P.S. On a side note, I'm really surprised about some of the issues you guys encounter beforehand with engine builds in the field with ALL the information available just on this site alone? I have trouble getting past it! There's very little that has NOT been covered up here, there's literally a "wealth of knowledge" to be gotten up here for many, myself included! I'm still learning today. Please don't take this as a "knock" on anyone, it's by no means at all meant that way. I will also give you this, good machinist's are a "dying breed" today? I see it all the time on incoming work!

seriously?? 20hp?? that's nuts.

I'll send you a PM instead of going further off topic!!

-Kevin

[flatheadmurre]

20hp gain from friction losses means you got to loose 22 ft/lb of rotating friction and rev the engine 4500rpm to gain that....numbers crunched by my slipping mind...may be off a bit.
Friction losses ain´t to difficult to calculate...just test a broken in engine with a torque wrench using external oilpressure...choose how hard you want to spin it and there´s your numbers.
Going gapless rings usually gives you 3-5% increase in HP from higher effiency as a comparsion.
Taking care of oil windage will give a lot more then most people think to.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by flatheadmurre

20hp gain from friction losses means you got to loose 22 ft/lb of rotating friction and rev the engine 4500rpm to gain that....numbers crunched by my slipping mind...may be off a bit.
Friction losses ain´t to difficult to calculate...just test a broken in engine with a torque wrench using external oilpressure...choose how hard you want to spin it and there´s your numbers.
Going gapless rings usually gives you 3-5% increase in HP from higher effiency as a comparsion.
Taking care of oil windage will give a lot more then most people think to.

Hi "murre", I absolutely agree with the windage note, we see definite HP gains in this area! That's why I mentioned the "vacuum-pump"!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. With literally 1000's of builds and dyno tests behind us over time I have never used or sold a single "gapless" ring set ever, they are unnecessary to us in any builds. Just our take on it here!

[revkev6]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

Hi "murre", I absolutely agree with the windage note, we see definite HP gains in this area! That's why I mentioned the "vacuum-pump"!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. With literally 1000's of builds and dyno tests behind us over time I have never used or sold a single "gapless" ring set ever, they are unnecessary to us in any builds. Just our take on it here!

I liked the gap less rings in my race motors... 22 race season and my leak down % was zero.. literally.

[flatheadmurre]

Im not saying anything is better or needed...just enjoying the discussion...and i always learn something new making the day better !

And sometimes even getting use for the mechanichal engineering skills they tried to teach me...before i realised i liked hands on work a lot more then calculating stuff.

Didn´t total seal have conversion kits to put skinny low tension rings on a normal piston...that would be a nice fast upgrade for a flathead

And some call me Murre...even says so on the jacket...but when my wife screams at me it´s Mauritz.

[Bored&Stroked]

Hey Gary: Was wondering what type of dyno you're running and what type of controls you have on it? (Instrumentation and Software). Can you post a video of one of your better flatheads on the dyno - would love to see one in action!

D

[Tim Ayers]

No, what I meant was selling the set to get the set made for the metric rings pack

[Tim Ayers]

Originally Posted by Ol' Ron

Has anyone read JWL's book? The HP readings in that book sets standards for our flatheads.

I'm going to break it out again. Thanks for the reminder

[Bored&Stroked]

Originally Posted by Tim Ayers

No, what I meant was selling the set to get the set made for the metric rings pack

I'm a big believer in the metric ring packs as well - when I built my 284 cube Merc motor (really a high-end race setup), I first had the Merc crank offset stroked to 4.125 stroke, then I put it and a 21A rod in the block (with a pin in it) and exactly measured the compression heights of both banks. One side was .008 lower than the other - I subtracted about .005 off of that and used that number for Ross. (I knew I wanted to true the decks and have a very fine finish on them - such that I could use MLS gaskets).

When I ordered my custom pistons from Ross I told them I wanted 1.5, 1.5, 3.0M Totalseal rings and where the first ring needs to be (down from the top). I knew I was going to do a .187 deep relief in the block, so I wanted to ensure the ring was far enough below it to not take too much heat. I also shortened the wrist pin just a bit (for light weight).

In the end, Ross made me exactly what I wanted (9 pistons, special pins, special dimensions, expensive rings - about $100 a piston total). Once I square decked the block (.005 on one side and .013 on the other), I had the exact squish I wanted between the pistons and heads. It is a big deal getting the squish right - .040 is about right, though you can probably go down to .035 and be safe. Yes, I spent a few hundred more than "off the shelf" pistons, but I got exactly what I needed for the performance goals I had in mind.

After a few hundred miles on the engine, I pulled the plugs and put a torque wrench on the crank - was interested in how much torque it took to turn the engine over - about 22 - 24 foot pounds. That made me happy.

Good luck with your build!
D