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05-02-2011, 01:19 PM | #21 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
The spring does not touch the guide retainer (horseshoe clip) . It touches the guide, the retainer sits in a groove in the guide. But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place.
That is, it holds it in place when shiny and new. As time goes by, the orneriness kicks in gradually until it takes over completely. Anybody that has never done the job will not have a clue what we are talking about. Those that have done the job will know exactly what we are on about.. LOL. Mart. |
05-02-2011, 01:23 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
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A badge of flathead honor is at least one scar from doing the tear down. Tim |
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05-02-2011, 01:48 PM | #23 | |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
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Complete manufacture's instructions for using this tool are on my website. Jim
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05-02-2011, 02:02 PM | #24 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
"But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place.
That is, it holds it in place when shiny and new. As time goes by, the orneriness kicks in gradually until it takes over completely." Mart, You are correct, of course. There is enough spring pressure to hold the assembly together and in place, but not enough to keep you from slipping the clips out ... later on it's not spring pressure that makes them hard to remove. You said it much better. (Edit: Jim, nice website and great Merc. Thanks for the instructions.)
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05-02-2011, 02:08 PM | #25 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
No it doesn't. The lock is ductile enough to deform when pried out. And I have used that tool with the tit in the prying mode and also by hammering on the end. Works about the same. Most of the time I can get them out without breaking them. It's obvious that some of the posters have never torn apart a REALLY stuck engine.
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05-02-2011, 02:12 PM | #26 | |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
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05-02-2011, 02:16 PM | #27 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
You can also find those older KD tool that slips into the valve port from the top of the block and allows you to hammer on top of the guide with the valve still in the guide on E-bay fairly cheaply.
They've worked as well. I think we can say that works and that doesn't to a lot hypotheical tear downs. One rule I've learned with dealing with these Old Fords is very few rules are stead fast and true when dealing with flatheads. |
05-02-2011, 02:17 PM | #28 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
I've also had a guide that was tight, got the clip out and pried the whole valve assembly up with a big lever, only for it to shoot out and lose itself amongst all the crap on the other side of the garage.
LOL Aint flatheads fun! Mart. |
05-02-2011, 02:58 PM | #29 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
Mart>>>The spring does not touch the guide retainer (horseshoe clip) . It touches the guide, the retainer sits in a groove in the guide. But, as you say, spring pressure does hold it all in place.>>>
Correct on spring not touching the retainer but instead touching the guide's retainer slot. Sorry. For a super-stuck mushroom guide, it might be necessary to first de-tension the spring by wrestling out its spring retainer. Then fashion a flat but stout drift that reaches the top of the guide below the valve head. Whack the drift till the guide retainer clears the block recess. Even with its retainer out, a super-stuck guide often can't be easily pried up and out. In these stubborn cases, I use the camshaft lobe to lift the guide by turning the crank while sequentially inserting 1/8" shims between the lifter and the spring till the whole assembly comes flying out. So it's best to place a safety net or cloth over valve to catch all the parts as Mart points out. Jack E/NJ |
05-02-2011, 03:13 PM | #30 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
well alot of this is cart before the horse type stuff......Ive tore down 4 flatheads in about 2 months and the constant in these have been the lack of moving the valve guide at all evan alittle...Ive bent my spring bar trying to get this to happen also I have the tool to knock the guide down to get the clip out but it doesnt fit my valves... the 8ba valve has a flared stop and the tool wont fit round that
its hard to get the clip out without knocking down the guide and I have the tool top in 1st pic to pull the whole assembly if only I could get the clip out......on the last engine and I still have yet to pull a clip that isnt destorted beyond repair....good thing there cheap
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05-02-2011, 03:15 PM | #31 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
why I have you all here what id the tools to the right of the valve guide knocking down thing(the official name)
here is a better pick of the questionable tools
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05-02-2011, 03:23 PM | #32 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
"No it doesn't. The lock is ductile enough to deform when pried out. And I have used that tool with the tit in the prying mode and also by hammering on the end. Works about the same. Most of the time I can get them out without breaking them. It's obvious that some of the posters have never torn apart a REALLY stuck engine."
This is the "get a (progressively) bigger hammer" approach familiar to anyone who has had to cut the rods with a torch and break/cut the pistons out trying to salvage a block. "The lock is ductile enough to deform when pried out." The last valve removal I got into had the engine's pistons break loose when the fellows tried pushing and rocking the car. Something was still stuck, but with extra effort there were several "pops" and it turned over. I showed up and took a compression check to find most cylinders had no compression. To shorten the story, naturally a number of valves were stuck open, even though some had moved, but three horseshoe clips had popped out of the guides, and the guides were pushed up with the valves frozen in them. So, I'm sure they will deform.
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05-02-2011, 03:57 PM | #33 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
I put one through the shop window once. I do put a towel or something like that over them now.
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05-02-2011, 04:02 PM | #34 | |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
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05-02-2011, 05:02 PM | #35 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
"the 8ba valve has a flared stop and the tool wont fit round that"...actually, that is the tool for four bangers or something...the KD V-8 driver has a much wider lower part and is made to drive farther out near the edge of the flathead guide...there are two models, one a special for the ghastly '32-3 guides with integral shoulder.
There are a bunch of replies on how that retainer is held in...by Ford's design, it sits in a recess that prevents it from moving properly unless the guide itself is moved down a little. Ford, of course, stuck to the fiction that moving the guide down was shop-manual simple... THe KD drivers, Bown 49's tool, and a bunch of other aftermarket tools were designed to just yank out the guide past its recess, deforming it into junk but saving time that cost far more than a new clip. All give a risk of ripping the tab off instead of moving the clip... The KD C-clamp tool was of couse meant to be used with the retainer yanker, which allowed the mighty C-clamp to then yank the guide without the lost motion of trying to lower the guide. The guide driver was a backup for those with bad luck on the retainers or not using the C-clamp. In my experience, the C-clamp is an invinceable puler, but getting the clip out so it can be used can be a touch more difficult than KD implied in the directions. FWIW, I consider the KD guide lever bar to be the best available in that type of tool. |
05-02-2011, 08:05 PM | #36 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
Mart>>>I've already broken a cam by trying to turn it to raise a stuck valve.>>>
I believe it, Mart! So I'd go a bit slower on trying to turn the crank and cam. First detension springs---at least the cam won't also be fighting spring resistance. Then liberally lube the assemblies with acetone-ATF or penetrant of choice. Let sit a day or so. Then try to turn crank as much as you dare. Re-lube and let it set awhile again. Then try to turn the crank again as much as you dare. Repeat as necessary till you've turned the crank 2 full revolutions to loosen all the stuck valves. Then go to sequential shims to get the super stuck-mushroom guides out --- slowly. 8^) Bruce>>>I consider the KD guide lever bar to be the best available in that type of tool.>>> I do too as long as it doesn't break off the bottom notches on the guides. If that happens, the homemade drift is probably one of the simplest & best tools to get the guide retainer out of its block recess. Jack E/NJ |
05-02-2011, 08:36 PM | #37 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
And if bottom groove breaks and the end rips off of the keeper...KD is still the salvation using the wide radius driver, a hefty forging cupped to go around the valve and bear on the guide while you pound the %$@$%$%$# out of it.
After that fails you can: 1. Drill the center til valve head falls off, continue with major hammering. 2. Go buy a Honda Civet and laugh at all this nonsense. 3. Find a cheaper, safer, less anti-social hobby like heroin. |
05-03-2011, 07:05 AM | #38 | |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
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Bruce, Hemmingway would have trouble connecting heroin as a "hobby" just like you were able to do. Poetic and funny. Tim Last edited by Tim Ayers; 05-03-2011 at 07:58 AM. |
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05-03-2011, 01:01 PM | #39 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
Interesting discussion.... Like many things 'flathead', there are several ways to get the job done. For the really stuck ones, I still 'subscribe' to the method that I think was posted by Walt, many moons ago (& not posted here). Almost no tools needed... And, quick - maybe a couple hours ??? or less, for all 16. Last time I was involved, it went smooth. And, I'm nearly ready to tear another (really stuck one) apart, so I'll get to experience this 'fun' again soon.
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05-03-2011, 02:01 PM | #40 |
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Re: Am I useing my flathead tools wrong
"Almost no tools needed ... I'm nearly ready to tear another (really stuck one) apart, so I'll get to experience this 'fun' again soon. "
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