Is 65 lbs torque too much for a HC head?

[buyitsmart]

On pg 37 of Bratton's catalog they recommend 65 lbs torque on a HC head.
Is 65 lbs torque correct or is the 55 lbs most others recommend correct?

[kenparker]

I run 55 on stock Model A heads and 65 on the HC heads. In hte HC heads I have/am usesing either Snyder 5.5 or 6.1 or Brumfield 5.9

[V4F]

do you have new #8 studs ? i have an hc with #8 studs . 65# & no worries ... steve

[Mike V. Florida]

55 stock, 65 High compression.

[CarlG]

Snyder reccomends 55 for their 5.5 head. That's what I'm running,

[Logan]

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Ron Kelly told me to not go over 60. After 60 you start pulling the deck of the block up, instead of the head down.

[buyitsmart]

I have a Snyder's 6.1 shaved .007 and I am using new chrome moly (I assume grade 8) studs and the B-6051-M Premium Head Gasket that Snyder's recommends.

If the head studs can be torqued to 65, than what do I torque the water outlet studs to?

I do have a new A-8251-BX cast iron drilled water outlet to install my temp gauge and it looks like it can handle some torque. It looks thicker than the stock outlet I took off.

BTW what is the torque value on the water pump studs? I can't find it listed anywhere.

[Bubby Sharp in KY]

buyitsmart Do NOT use the gasket that comes with the set on the water outlet unless you plan to buy another one. I use a very thin home made gasket or none with a little RTV silicon . I tourque water outlet same as other head studs . Water pump studs , just snug them up to keep from leaking. Also one of the water pump studs has a through hole into head and needs sealant on threads or it will leak . Bubby Sharp in KY

[Mikeinnj]

I called Snyders and they recommend 55 Ft. lbs. on their 5.5 head with the special gasket and to use regular head studs, as they feel there is no need to use grade 8 studs.

[hardtimes]

Originally Posted by buyitsmart

On pg 37 of Bratton's catalog they recommend 65 lbs torque on a HC head.
Is 65 lbs torque correct or is the 55 lbs most others recommend correct?

Well, what do you call a high comp head? 5.5 comp ratio is NOT a high comp head, in my opinion. I'm thinking when you get upwards of 7.1 and higher...logic tells me that MORE clamping force is/would be desirable. Then you logically would use the best head gaskets and studs for better results. Why do you ask ...what different torque is used on water neck studs??
If you don't use SAME torque as on the other head studs, don't you think that the head/gasket will be compromised? I have never broken a water neck when torqueing....because I don't use a gasket at all.
I have a 7:1 comp ratio head that is clamped to 65 ft lbs. It has grade eight studs and a NOS block..so no pulling here.

[buyitsmart]

Bubby, I have Permatex Tack & Seal (9AR) gasket sealant that says it is non-hardening and works on water pumps as well as other things. Can I use that alone? Can I use it with a brown paper bag gasket?

With respect to the water pump stud with a hole in it, can I use Permatex medium strength threadlocker (blue)? Is that the type of sealant you are referring to?

Since I have new moly studs I am tempted to go to 65 lbs of torque because I do not want a water leak in my head gasket. Thoughts??

[buyitsmart]

hardtimes, IMO a 6.1 or 7.1 head is not high compression, however, Bratton's puts this info about 65 lbs of torque right on top of their 5.5:1 and 6:1 "HI-COMPRESSION CYLINDER HEAD" as they call it, so I am only assuming they mean THESE heads.

Of course we all know what happens when you assume.

I guess that is why I am asking. Because I am confused.

Also, in previous threads I have seen people say they torque their heads to 55 lbs except the water neck studs, and they torque those to only 50 lbs. I say torque em to whatever the other studs are torqued to, but I was just checking...

[Arlen]

Don't use the gasket on the water neck. Smear on a thin layer of permetex #2 gasket maker, tighten it all down to 65. Everything will work just great. Would strongly recommend you not use ignition cable clamp under the one head nut. Can make pulling the distributor later a real pain without busting the head gasket loose.

[Logan]

Another thing i don't think anyones mentioned, is make sure the water neck is flat on the contact surface with the head. i've heard of people getting them re-surfaced, but if its only a little off a file will be just fine to try and get it right. just use a strait edge to check it.

[Dave in MN]

Buyitsmart,
I understand your confusion regarding the correct torque to apply to your new head. There is a lot of info and opinions out that are contradictory.
I like the manufacturers support when I use their products. I feel that, if or when you want warranty support from a manufacturer, (Snyder's) you should follow the instructions as to the use of their product. (Regarding your post #12 above: Forget Bratton's they do not manufacture the head and they are not specifying which gasket to use. The head purchased from Brattons is a Snyder's head.) I have been told by Don Snyder the correct torque to use with their HC heads is 55# when you pair it with their Premium head gasket. (The one you have purchased and refer to in your post #7.) I also suggest using their Premium Head Gasket as it only requires 55# torque. If you go to 65# of torque, you increase your chances of pulling a stud out of the block, distorting the top of the block and adjoining cylinders. On my Phaeton, I used to torque to 65# with a 5.9:1 Brumfield head and I pulled 3 studs out of the block. Each event was a separate occurrence and it required removal of the head to fix the block with a helicoil. Since I have started using the Premium Head Gasket, I have not had a failure with a head stud or the head gasket itself. (Yes I use the Premium head gasket with the Brumfield head...but that is another discussion.) I have many of these gaskets in use on engines I have built and they just do not cause any problems. I also suggest you eliminate the standard gooseneck gasket and use silicone sealant instead. Make sure the mating surfaces are flat and then torque the long studs to the same 55# torque.
The only negative to the Premium Head Gasket is that you need to re-torque often until it fully seats. As far as leaking...under proper torque, they do not. A lot of folks claim to have water leaking problems with this gasket but I believe it may be that they are not keeping up with the frequency of re-torquing required with this gasket as it is seating. (Early in its life.)
History of product use:
1) Premium Gaskets: Over 50 in use
2) Snyder's HC heads: I have (7) 5.5:1 heads in use and (4) 6:1 heads in use

For a Snyder's Head use the following: (From Snyder's Web site as 12/8/11)
B-6051-M'B' version 1932-34 $27.95 / ea.
Premium Head Gasket (Silicone rings at the water passages)B-60

www.snydersantiqueauto.com


THE FOLLOWING INSTRUCTIONS ARE COPIED FROM THE SNYDER'S ANTIQUE AUTO PARTS WEBSITE AND RELATES TO THE USE OF THE PREMIUM HEAD GASKET.
Installation Instructions

A. Our gasket for the Model A engine is specifically engineered to be used with an original or stock Model A
head. Using our Model A gasket with an aftermarket head or Model B Head will not completely compress the
fire rings.
B. Our gasket for the Model B engine is specifically engineered to be used with an original or stock Model B
head. (I changed the color to RED to highlite the followingIt should also be used on any Model A engine fitted with either a Snyder’s heador a Model B head.
C. DO NOT USE GASKET SEALER ON THESE GASKETS! Gaskets are self sealing. Use of additional
sealer can attack both special types of silicone sealer on the gasket surface.
D. The gasket must be installed correctly with the words “This Side Up” positioned face up.
E. Before installation, both mating surfaces should be machined or completely flat to within the specified factory tolerances and free from grease, oil, or solvents. All threads on block, studs& nuts must be in clean and good condition.
F. Cylinder head must be retorqued after the first 500 miles of operation to 55 ft. lbs. using the correct head bolt
torquing sequence. NOTE: Engine block must be cold before retorquing.
CAUTION!
BEFORE DRIVING VEHICLE
1. Warm engine up slowly for 15-20 minutes.
2. Let engine cool overnight, or until stone cold (6 hours minimum).
3. Retorque cylinder head to 55 foot pounds using correct torqueing sequence.
4. Repeat after 500 miles.

If you need additional advice regarding the proper torque to use with your Snyder’s head, please call Don Snyder at his place of work. He and his staff are very accommodating to customer's needs for advice.
Good Day!

[1931 flamingo]

buyitsmart: Can we 'assume" that you were able to get your old studs out alright??
Paul in CT

[TinCup]

Yeah I hadn't seen an update either.

Originally Posted by 1931 flamingo

buyitsmart: Can we 'assume" that you were able to get your old studs out alright??
Paul in CT

[buyitsmart]

Yes, I did get the studs out all right. A great relief. The ATF/Acetone seemed to loosen everything up real well. I ended up using the pipe wrench on the bottom of the studs near the block while simultaneously turning the Snap-On stud puller. They all came out real nice.

But I am freaking out after reading Dave's post about torquing to 55 lbs.
I went ahead and finished putting the car together without checking the Barn and I torqued everything to 65.
The reason I am so concerned is that everything held great at 55 lbs.
When I went to 65 lbs stud #1 seems to spin rather loosely for 1/8th of a turn and then it caught and held at 65 lbs. I didn't have any 'pulling' like that on the other studs.

Tomorrow am I plan to run the car for the 15 minutes or so and then re-torque.
I am not sure what to do now. I know that I can't stop torqueing the head now. I have to finish the re-torque and subsequent torques that will be required until everything is seated. I am just freaking out that stud #1 slipped like it did. It felt like it was pulling out, but then it seemed to catch and hold.

Man I am worried now.
What Dave said makes perfect sense now that I think it through. The directions from Snyder's even said 55 lbs.

Should I continue with the torquing to 65 lbs?

[Tom Wesenberg]

I would go with less torque. You could loosen the nuts about 1/8 turn then torque to 55 and do all the retorques to that. I'd also be worried about that #1 stud that seemed to slip. You might remove that nut and see if the threads in the nut have pulled some.

[buyitsmart]

I haven't started the engine yet. Are you saying I could loosen all the studs and start over using only 55 lbs? I would definetly do that if it would work.

I would take the opportunity to pull the #1 stud all the way out. If I pull the #1 stud all the way out am I going to see the threads on my new chrome moly studs stretched or is it more likely that I stretched the 80 year old threads in the block?

Can I put helicoil in the #1 stud hole without removing the head?

[Tom Wesenberg]

Has any coolant been added yet? If so, be sure to drain it first, then loosen all the nuts and pull #1 stud to check the threads. If you need a helicoil then you'll have to pull the head.

[Dave in MN]

Buyitsmart,
From my experience: Your description... "When I went to 65 lbs stud #1 seems to spin rather loosely for 1/8th of a turn and then it caught and held at 65 lbs. I didn't have any 'pulling' like that on the other studs." is typical of pulling a thread from the block. You may luck out as the stud grabbed and held. Subsequent re-torques may bring the stud to block connection to failure but let's hope not. (It is possible there could have been an inconsistency between the mating surfaces of the nut and the head and the offending metal yielded…causing the loose spin.)
At this point, you are not out anything to try it with stud # 1 as it is. I would do as Tom Wessenberg suggested and reduce the torque down to 55# and then warm it up as the instructions with the gasket suggest. Heads up: After warming it up at a starting torque of 55#, the torque will drop between 5-10# as it cools.
If you want to follow normal convention: After the warming cycle, with the engine stone cold, start with stud # 1 and back the nut off 15 to 20 degrees and immediately bring it back up to 55#. Move to #2 stud and do the same...continue through the proper sequence until you have all of them re-torqued.
Important: Each time you re-torque the head, note the position of the torque wrench on each stud before you loosen the nut to start the procedure. As you bring the torque back up to 55#, note if the wrench passes the initial position of the wrench. If it goes past, the gasket is still seating. If the re-torqued position is equal to the starting position, the gasket has seated.
Fire ring crush: The gasket you are using has a metal "fire ring" surrounding each combustion chamber. This ring is compressed or "crushed" when the head is torqued. Taking the torque to 65# may have crushed the ring beyond rebound tolerances if you loosen it to 55#. If this is the case, you may have a bit of combustion gas leaking into the cooling system or an adjoining cylinder. Watch for bubbles rising in the radiator...if there are no bubbles...you may be good to go. Drive it but check for bubbles for the first couple hundred miles as it may take a while for the bubbles to show. They have to make their way past the silicone seals at the water pasages. If you have bubbles, start over and replace the gasket. Use the same studs and nuts. If combustion gas is leaking into an adjoining cylinder, you will experience a rough running engine. If the engine is not running smoothly, the leaking can be confirmed with a compression test or cylinder leak down test. The fix is the same...replace the head gasket.
If the #1 stud will not hold, you will need to remove the head to install a Helicoil. Before you remove the head, consider drilling the hole for the Helicoil tap with the head still on the car. The installed head will properly align the drill bit as to perpendicular and center. The last thing you want is a misaligned grade 8 stud fighting you as you try to slide the head over the studs. Drilling the block with the head on the car will also eliminate any chance of getting metal cuttings in a cylinder. Plug the spark plug holes to avoid chips entering the cylinders. Blow out the chips from the hole prior to removing the head. Be careful to only drill to the existing depth. Measure or guage the depth of the existing hole from the top of the head boss and then transfer the depth to the drill bit. Wrap some tape around the drill bit with the edge of the tape at the proper depth so you have a reference to the top of the boss when drilling. Use a sharp bit for drilling the hole for the tap as a dull drill will most likely oversize the hole. The OD of the Helicoil tap is greater than the stud hole ID of the head, so you will need to remove it to tap the newly sized hole. Be very careful to have the Helicoil tap perpendicular to the top of the block when tapping. Don't fret over the use of a Helicoil...I think a Helicoil in the block is much stronger than the original cast iron threads.

At this point, anything that has happened can be fixed…don’t fret. A 7/16" NC Helicoil kit is around $22.00 on ebay. Auction # 380272068452
A gasket is around $30.00....worst case...About $60.00 to recover...I've had much worse.

Take one step at a time and work through it.
Good luck!

[buyitsmart]

I spoke with Tom at Snyder's. He said that normally he would say, since I have reached 65 lbs, stay with it. It won't make much of a difference.

However, since stud #1 slipped he recommends going down to 55 lbs. Just like you guys recommended.

I am going down to 55 lbs and then starting the car.
Hopefully everything will be fine.
The best thing I got going for me is that my worst case scenario isn't so bad.
Stud #1 is an easy one to get to with the engine in the car.

I will keep you updated.

Thanks for your input.

[buyitsmart]

All is well. I backed everything down to 55 lbs and it is holding.
The car runs strong!!
I'm excited.
It is in the cool down stage now and when it is cool I will re-torque.
Thanks.