How important is it to replace the head bolts when installing a HC head??

[buyitsmart]

I am building a touring car and so I thought I would add a Snyder's 6.1:1 HC head. I received it today.

I got my factory head off and I'm looking at the head bolts. I have new moly head bolts but I'm afraid to try to get the old bolts out because I don't want to break one off in the head. I have never worked with helicoil before and the thought of having to drill out a broken stud freaks me out...

The men that restored my car a year ago said "as best as they could remember" they took the head off to check out the condition of the valves and cylinder walls and they said they used new moly bolts when they put it back together. They were working on two engines at the same time and they believe mine had the new bolts.

Doe it look like they did that based upon these pictures?
Do my valves look ok?

Thanks for your help...this is my first A and I don't want to mess things up.

Ken in Orlando

P.S. I can see how the Snyder head gives higher compression with the smaller chamber.

[lazlobassett]

I changed the head bolts on my '31 when I put the Hi comp Thomas head on it, got them all out aside from two. No fun drilling & tapping them but I think next time ( and bolts after the 2 I broke) I will get them all out without breaking any. Adding heat made all the other stubborn ones come out. Now, the big question, does it really need to be done? I very seriously doubt it. I have some tings that have 13.5 to 1 compression. I think that needs new studs or bolts, it will be seriously abused with high octane fuels and what not. Heck my lawn mower is probably 6-1.... 7- 1 isn't a huge strech either.... I'm sure there are folks here who have actual experience better than mine but I won't change them again and I'll see how it goes next time....and will report on my research.

cheers!

[TinCup]

I didn't change mine when I did my Snyders 5.5 head. I think that they recommend the #8 grade for the 6.1 head. It's a crap shoot getting the old studs out. You never know what shape they are in. Take your time and use generous amounts of penetrating oil or ATF and Acetone on the stubborn ones.

[buyitsmart]

Hey Will,
I heard the correct ingredient for the ATF and Acetone mixture is actually power steering fluid, not automatic transmission fluid. Have you heard that?

Ken

[2manycars]

I ran an original winfield 6:1 head on my engine for 30 years with stock original studs, and no problem at all. Those studs are big and rugged, and when you think about the compression of modern engines, 6:1 is laughable.

[Kevin in NJ]

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Look for erosion at the base of the studs. If they have some then the odds are they will break.

If you break a stud take it to a welder. Have them TIG weld a washer then a nut to the broken stud. Then spray it with penetrant while it cools. The broken part will come right out. See Vince Falters website for more information on this removal technique.

[James Rogers]

[QUOTE=buyitsmart;315319]Hey Will,
I heard the correct ingredient for the ATF and Acetone mixture is actually power steering fluid, not automatic transmission fluid. Have you heard that?

Ken[/Q]
I use ATF and acetone with great success. It does take a while for it to mix and I shake the spray bottle often when using it. I remove lots of head studs and only break one once in a while. I use a 8" pipe wrench at the bottom of the stud after heating the block around the base of the stud with an acetylene torch setup.

[MikeK]

Your second question- the valves: They are sunk down to the max. The edges are very thin from regrinding and the seats low, resulting in valve faces flush with the block. This restricts breathing. Do they seal OK? Stems wobble from excessive clearance?
Here's what new valves, sitting on new seats look like:


Your first Q- the studs: They appear to be replacements, based simply on the lack of corrosion at the bases. The real problem with re-using studs is the threads get polished and slippery, resulting in more clamping at the same torque reading. If you do not replace them definitely use new nuts that have not had their threads polished in by previous torquing. Personally, I would pull the studs for the simple fact that it makes cleaning the block and stone dressing any high spots easy. Those studs look like they would give no fight at all on the way out.

[28Annie]

Hi Ken,

While you figure out just what to do with the head bolts, you might want to seriously consider taking that new head out & having it planed before going through all of the work to install it. Many of them are not flat, even though they're brand new.

David

[Dave in MN]

Head bolt question:
From my experience, they appear to be moly bolts of recent replacement. I agree with MikeK for all the reasons he has stated...take out the studs. If they are recent replacements, they will remove easily. Use yours and you will be sure they are moly.

Other comments:
You will like the performance the 6:1 head gives you.
I have had good success using the head gasket Snyder's suggests. I have used about 50 of them (A & B) versions over the last three years.
From Snyder's online description of the gasket:
The 1932-34 model B version is recommended with all 1932-34 stock heads as well as 1928-31 5.5:1 and 6:1 Snyder brand high compression heads.
Premium Head Gasket
B-6051-M
'B' version
1932-34
$27.95 / ea.


This gasket will need to be torqued a few times until it stops compressing or seating. Follow the instructions and then plan to check the torque at 500 mile intervals until it holds torque. (I also check them at 100 miles on my own cars.) The first time you let the engine warm up and then cool you can expect to loose 5-10# of torque. I always re-torque the head after it is cool. Back the nut off a bit and then immediately bring it up to torque. You can judge the progress of seating by noting the position of your torque wrench prior to backing the nut off to start the re-torque. If you pass the position of your initial check, the gasket is still seating. Follow the suggested torque sequence as to starting from the center of the head and working to the outside.
Dave in MN
www.durableperformance.net

[PC/SR]

An old Hot Rod magazine reprint says to re torque a cast iron head cold, and an alunimum head while still hot. Anyone know why the difference? Different expansion rates?

[CarlG]

I have always felt that new head studs were cheap insurance, as long as it's apart anyway.

[buyitsmart]

Kevin: I agree that Vince has a good procedure to use if you break one off, but I don't want to break one off. That's my biggest fear.

James: Isn't the ATF/Acetone mixture flammable? Should I use a torch on the engine block portion or the stud? You referenced using a spray bottle. I am using a squirt oil can. Should I have it in a spray bottle? I didn't know about shaking it up. Thx.

28Annie: I'm taking the head to a local machine shop tomorrow to have it checked and planed if necessary. Thx.

Dave in MN: I do have the B-6051-M head gasket from Snyder's but mine is slightly different than the one you have shown. The one that came off is very similar to the photo by MikeK. It looks like solid copper.

I agree with everyone that taking out the studs and using my new Moly bolts is the best insurance.

Question: If one stud is really, really stuck can I leave it in and just replace the rest of them?

[Milton]

I just removed the head studs from my spare A engine. It was a 1959 rebuild. I double nutted the studs and got one out. I used heat/cool/hammer on the rest and did one front to rear row at a time (5,5,4). I would heat them near the top and let them cool then rap them down with a hammer, then I would repeat the process until they started to budge, then I would drown them in Liquid Wrench. They were very, very tight but no breaks, no strips, no bad news at all. I wanted to chamfer the stud holes. If your rebuild is only a year old the double nutting should remove the studs without heat. You don't know 'til you try.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

I prefer to use new studs with a new head. Don Snyder told me his head holds fine at 55 ft lbs on new stock studs, but he recommends new moly studs with 65 ft lbs. Yours look new to me, and for the reasons Mike suggests regarding thread wear, I would replace them. They should come out easy. Any difficult ones, I really like the snap on collet-type stud remover, as I have not broken one since I started using it. In the event of a really badly stuck stud, the heat, cool, and penetrating oil ( I like Kroil) method works well in time. Rushing things is usually when things break.

[buyitsmart]

Milton and Pat, thanks.
I have ordered the Snap on collet stud remover. It should be in within a few days. Until then I am trying the ATF-Acetone mixture and rapping them with a hammer each time I walk by. When I get the stud remover I plan to try removing them. If they are really stuck I will try the heat and cool method.

I WAS in a hurry to get my car back on the road, but not at the expense of breaking a stud off in the engine block.

I'm going to take my time and hopefully have good news to report in a few days.

Thanks.

[marc hildebrant]

With Regard to the ATF and Acetone mixture...this sounds like part of the "Ed's Red" mixture for firearms cleaning.

Ed's Red is :

1 part Kerosene
1 part Paint Thinner
1 part ATF
1 part Acetone


I use it to clean the inside of the guns barrel and as a general cleaner on the internal/external parts of a firearm.

Marc

[Dave in MN]

Question: If one stud is really, really stuck can I leave it in and just replace the rest of them?[/QUOTE]

Yes you could but if it snaps off...read on.

Originally Posted by Dennis Pereira
I believe it was Dave in Mn That gave me a tip that worked great once you have the head off heat the studs cherry red at the base and then apply paraffin smokes a little but sure makes it easy to remove with a stud removal tool. Steady pressure do not lift up or press down or you will be asking how to remove a broken stud ask me how I know.

I brought the previous post forward to this thread for a bit more detail on the procedure....see below.
Dave in MN

I have found the wax method to work quite well on stubborn head and manifold bolts.
The wax method I use:
Heat the stuck stud cherry red as close to the block surface as possible without doing damage to the block. Let the stud cool to the point that when a candle or paraffin canning wax block is held against the stud the wax flows down quickly to the block surface without producing excessive smoke. If the stud is to hot, it will flow but much of it goes up in smoke. At this point I will strike the top of the stud a couple times with a hammer and then apply wax again. Apply enough wax so it puddles around the base of the stud. When done correctly, the wax will flow between the threads and lubricate the connection. Let everything cool to the point you do not burn skin if you touch the stud, or better yet, close to room temp, and then try to remove the stud. Most of the time it will back right out. If it is still stuck, repeat the process. I have only broken two studs in over 350 removed since I was clued in to the "wax method" by fellow Club member Mr. Frisk. What I like about the "wax" method is the quick results. With repeating the process a second time and allowing for the cool down times, it only takes a total time of an hour to have the most stubborn studs out. I know a lot of other methods are used to remove stubborn studs and they probably work well also. When I am stripping blocks down for rebuilding, I do not have days to allow penetrants to do their job. Most car owners want their rebuilt engines back ASAP.
Good Day!
Dave in MN
www.durableperformance.net

[Ned]

I needed to remove the studs in on old engine. Soaked the studs in PB Blaster for a few days, then used a wrap around stud remover and a pointer type torque wrench so I didn't get too heavy handed. Tapping on the top of the stud with a hammer while cranking on the wrench seemed to help. I only broke one off, it was undercut heavily at the block by corrosin and broke at about 40 ft/lbs.

I had a friend make a couple of drill guides to drill the broken part out using the head as a guide. One for a smaller drill bit and one for a drill bit that was the ID of the thread in the block. When I got done drilling, the only remaining part of the stud was the thread, it wound out like a helicoil. I believe Bratton's sells the drill guides now.

[James Rogers]

Just for the record, I have used several types of stud removers and have a very expensive professional set of Van Norman removers that, like all the others I tried, will snap a stud off in a split second. I find the acetylene torch and a pipe wrench is the best used with the ATF/acetone mix. Yes the mix is flammable and must be used in an open space carefully when heating with a torch.

[jcheshire31]

I second the wax technique. I learned the hard way not to use an easy-out on broken head studs. Turns out they like to break off in there. After three days and a trip to get the acetylene bottle refilled, I finally got it out. I know this probably isn't helping my arguement, but I think changing the studs now will pay off in the long run. I'm always for using fresh metal as opposed to 80 year old metal, at least in regards to the engine. A repretable engine builder down here in Texas (Ron Kelley) told me to not torque the head studs over 60 pounds or it will start distort the top of the block, that 60 pounds will hold the head on there good and tight.

[buyitsmart]

I have heard that a Snyder's 6.1:1 head should be torqued to 65 lbs. Is this true?

[JEC]

When I removed the studs on my A engine I broke 2 or 3 using a pipe wrench.
When it came time to do the B I used the sears pound on removing tool and used my impact wrench on a low setting. I was putting on a Riley 2 Port head and wasn't going to reuse the studs.
The impact wrench pounding on the stud worked great. A few took a while but they all eventually broke loose and came out. With the pipe wrench method its to easy to over torque the stud and they break at the block because of the corrosion. It wouldn't hurt to do the heat and solvent first.

[Bill O'Brien]

Looking at your studs you should have no problem. Mine were RUSTY and I only snapped one off. If you do snap one off drilling the broken stud out is very easy.

Good luck!

[Dave in MN]

Originally Posted by buyitsmart

I have heard that a Snyder's 6.1:1 head should be torqued to 65 lbs. Is this true?

Bill,

65# is to much.

Snyder's suggests 55# in the order shown on the attached pdf.
Click on the attachment...The info on the attached pdf is their installation instructions for the 6:1 head. With the silicone gasket you plan to use, 55# will be all you need. Just re-torque it often until it stops seating.
Good Day!