My first post; loud 2nd gear & slipping in 3rd

[buyitsmart]

This is my first post. I have been searching and studying most of the popular websites regarding Model A's and I have spent quite some time on the Ford Barn reviewing hundreds of posts to learn as much as I could before my car arrived.

I acquired my first A on Thursday this week. A frame off restoration completed by two gentleman in Massachusetts. It is a 31 Deluxe Coupe with all standard components. I have been having the time of my life learning to drive it, maintain it and just generally stare at it while pinching myself...

I have, however, noticed a loud whirring sound in 2nd gear that sounds like it is coming from the transmission. It happens in 3rd too, but only if I have reached a top speed of 45 and even then, it sounds a little different. First gear is quiet with just the sound of the engine revving up. I find that if I shift at the low speeds mentioned in the Model A Instruction Book the car runs great, but I still have the loud whirring noise in 2nd gear almost the entire time I am in 2nd gear. I had a friend drive it and he felt it was muffler related so we replaced it. It helped quiet the car down, but now the loud noise in 2nd gear is even more noticeable.

In addition to the loud roar in 2nd gear I noticed that if I accelerate hard after shifting into 3rd gear the transmission seems to slip. If feels like the clutch is slipping. If I let up on the accelerator and increase my speed slowly, the slipping goes away and the car seems to surge forward and 'catch up' to the engine speed.

Am I crazy? Can the transmission actually slip in 3rd gear? I read that it could be oil on the clutch plate, but wouldn't that mean it slips in other gears as well?

Would it be better to park the car and get 2nd gear looked at before something bad happens?

After hearing the loud noise in 2nd gear I drained the oil in the rear differential and the transmission and put in the proper amount of fresh oil just in case... The oil that came out looked pretty good. No metal shavings. I put in new 600W oil and I am not running STP or anything like that.

I value the opinion of the people that post here and look forward to joining the Ford Barn Community.

I have plans to upgrade my A to a touring class vehicle over time and I look forward to getting the opinions of the good folks here as I take that journey.

I am located in Central Florida just north of Orlando and I have joined a couple of the local Model A clubs.

Thanks for being here, for posting great advice and for allowing me to feel a part of such a great hobby...

Ken

[ratamahata]

Welcome from Argentina!!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by buyitsmart

This is my first post. I have been searching and studying most of the popular websites regarding Model A's and I have spent quite some time on the Ford Barn reviewing hundreds of posts to learn as much as I could before my car arrived.

I acquired my first A on Thursday this week. A frame off restoration completed by two gentleman in Massachusetts. It is a 31 Deluxe Coupe with all standard components. I have been having the time of my life learning to drive it, maintain it and just generally stare at it while pinching myself...



I have, however, noticed a loud whirring sound in 2nd gear that sounds like it is coming from the transmission. It happens in 3rd too, but only if I have reached a top speed of 45 and even then, it sounds a little different. First gear is quiet with just the sound of the engine revving up. I find that if I shift at the low speeds mentioned in the Model A Instruction Book the car runs great, but I still have the loud whirring noise in 2nd gear almost the entire time I am in 2nd gear. I had a friend drive it and he felt it was muffler related so we replaced it. It helped quiet the car down, but now the loud noise in 2nd gear is even more noticeable.

In addition to the loud roar in 2nd gear I noticed that if I accelerate hard after shifting into 3rd gear the transmission seems to slip. If feels like the clutch is slipping. If I let up on the accelerator and increase my speed slowly, the slipping goes away and the car seems to surge forward and 'catch up' to the engine speed.

Am I crazy? Can the transmission actually slip in 3rd gear? I read that it could be oil on the clutch plate, but wouldn't that mean it slips in other gears as well?

Would it be better to park the car and get 2nd gear looked at before something bad happens?

After hearing the loud noise in 2nd gear I drained the oil in the rear differential and the transmission and put in the proper amount of fresh oil just in case... The oil that came out looked pretty good. No metal shavings. I put in new 600W oil and I am not running STP or anything like that.

I value the opinion of the people that post here and look forward to joining the Ford Barn Community.

I have plans to upgrade my A to a touring class vehicle over time and I look forward to getting the opinions of the good folks here as I take that journey.

I am located in Central Florida just north of Orlando and I have joined a couple of the local Model A clubs.

Thanks for being here, for posting great advice and for allowing me to feel a part of such a great hobby...

Ken

Sounds like clutch pedal adjustment is too tight. Pedal should have about 1 inch of free travel.

[40 Deluxe]

The noise is likely a bad bearing or worn gears in the trans. The slipping sensation would have to be the clutch. It is 'the nature of the beast' that a clutch will slip in high gear before the lower gears. The cause is usually a worn out disc, oil on the facings, or weak springs in the pressure plate (from excessive slippage). Do you have a leaking rear main (not just drips )? Was any of the drivetrain rebuilt (engine, trans, rear end)? The noise could possibly be the rear end, too.

[31 Pickup]

Ken,
Before you get to panicky - you've the right things so far (draining fluids, etc) Model A transmissions are (most old cars for that matter) are noisy, just by the way the gears are 'cut'
Think back to the school bus when you were a kid.
Go on youtube and watch/listen to some of the Model A posts of guys driving theirs, and listen closely to the gear changes/sounds before you start tearing things apart.
Sounds like you need to check your clutch adjustment - and maybe you just need to drive some more (for research purposes of course -
Scott

[Kevin in NJ]

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Cars are frequently restored with lots of bad used parts even from professional shops.

After all it is just an old car that barely runs 45 MPH. NOT!

Check the clutch adjustment for 1" of play. While your are there, pull the cover and inspect the clutch area for oil and other things.

You can take off the top of the transmission fairly easy. Then you can do a direct look at the gears and see what you have. NOS gears will have nice straight lines across there machined faces. As they wear they get polished. You are looking for pits and shine. You also want to see slightly pointed faces where the gears engage.

I have seen a professionally restored car with input and output bearings that were fully pitted. The tranny was so loud you could not talk when you drove.

If your car was restored to factory tolerances it will be comfortable to drive right on up through to 60 MPH. You will feel comfortable running 55 MPH. You will be able to talk to your passengers. You should feel comfortable stopping at those speeds in a panic situation. It should not be vibrating much, ya they will vibrate some- but not as much as most cars do.

Drive and learn, fix it in small steps.

[buyitsmart]

Thanks for the input. According to the gentleman that I purchased the car from,

"We replaced many things that were still serviceable-The clutch pressure plate and throw out bearing, for instance. The front end,steering, water pump, and distributor were all rebuilt."

The clutch moves 2-3/4 inches before it meets resistance, if that is what you mean by free travel? I don't have any major leaks. A few drops here and there, but no real leaks.

If it was the rear end wouldn't it whine in first and third gear also? The sound is so distinct in 2nd gear and practically non-existent in first and third gear.

What do you mean when you say 'pull the cover'?
To 'take off the top of the transmission' will I remove the floor board?

I will definitely drive it and learn a lot more before I attempt repairs. It drives, it is just loud.

In the event I do break something in the trans, what steps would you recommend I take if ... my desire is to create a touring car that can travel 55 comfortably over long distances...(say from Florida to the mountains in NC). I would also need the ability to climb the steep roads in that area.

What setup would you recommend if you could have your choice of products???
I like the idea of a Mitchell overdrive, but sometimes my research has me lean towards a Mitchell transmission with the different gear ratio (I don't know whether it is described as higher gearing or lower gearing) and maybe a 3.54 rear differential. I have the 3.78 now.
I like the Mitchell transmission because it fits right inside the standard transmission housing and doesn't require any modifications to the vehicle.

I know for a touring class car I could also put in a high compression head, lightened flywheel, balanced crank, insert bearings, different carburetor, different cam, etc. etc.

I am only asking about the transmission, drive line, and gearing issues...for now. smile..

[ora masters]

Originally Posted by Kevin in NJ

Cars are frequently restored with lots of bad used parts even from professional shops.

After all it is just an old car that barely runs 45 MPH. NOT!

Check the clutch adjustment for 1" of play. While your are there, pull the cover and inspect the clutch area for oil and other things.

You can take off the top of the transmission fairly easy. Then you can do a direct look at the gears and see what you have. NOS gears will have nice straight lines across there machined faces. As they wear they get polished. You are looking for pits and shine. You also want to see slightly pointed faces where the gears engage.

I have seen a professionally restored car with input and output bearings that were fully pitted. The tranny was so loud you could not talk when you drove.

If your car was restored to factory tolerances it will be comfortable to drive right on up through to 60 MPH. You will feel comfortable running 55 MPH. You will be able to talk to your passengers. You should feel comfortable stopping at those speeds in a panic situation. It should not be vibrating much, ya they will vibrate some- but not as much as most cars do.

Drive and learn, fix it in small steps.

i like to drive 40 to 45 if i need to go faster i take a modern car

[31 Pickup]

Ken,
You've got a lot of free play for sone reason -
I'd pull the floorboard up, and take look at the clutch pedal and linkage - look for any 'slop' or lost motion (pedal moving but not actually doing anything. They might have left something loose or skimped on worn pedal or clutch lever bushings.
Then you will see the clutch inspection cover (on top of the bellhousing) There you'll see the top of the transmission and the cover bolts to pull the top (shifter housing) to look inside the transmission.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Remember, "changes" and "upgrades" aren't neccessarily the same thing.

A counterweighted crankshaft is a great change for the life of the babbit, especially for those wanting to rev the engine. Remember, the forces acting to try to bend the crankshaft quadruple as the speed doubles.

If you are going to change the ring and pinion I'd consider using the 3.27 ratio.

The high compression head will give the most bang for the buck for horsepower gain.

For those wishing to drive faster than 45 I think these 3 changes would be good.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

thats too much free play ...It can be adjusted tighter, but I doubt if that will address the slippage. A failing clutch will slip in third gear as you accelerate after shifting. If they really did replace the clutch and pressure plate, the slippage could be from oil. You can clean it off by spraying brake clean on the center of the clutch from the inspection cover in the pedal. Have the engine running at idle and spray the cleaner on both sides of the clutch linings while someone depresses the pedal.If that does not do it and there are no obvious impediments to the full movement of the pressure plate fingers or throw out arm, then the clutch is probably worn or perhaps the flywheel surface is very worn or was surfaced without surfacing the pressure plate mounting surface at the same time. The distance from that mount surface to the flywheel face is 1.123-1.125 inches. Too much more than that and even a new clutch plate will slip.. If you have to replace it, it will give you the opportunity to tear down the transmission at the same time for a thorough inspection.

[Kevin in NJ]

In my family we have never had an A that was not happy running over 55 MPH all day long. We are picky about details and only run cars that are close to stock.

If you want a reliable touring car you want pretty close to factory cause done right it is not going to let you down. The modern improvements seem to fail as much as the poorly restored originals in some cases. The alternator is a good example.

The A was designed to run 60 comfortably. If you learn what the factory specs were and you take the time to bring your car back to those specs then you will have a very comfortable car to drive. It is not cheap or easy to make that happen. I have spent some bucks for the right NOS mechanical parts on a car I do not intend to show.

One area that causes the most grief is the engine. It needs to be balanced. You gain a lot of HP just by balancing the engine. That means more power and less beating the parts to death. Here are some comments on balancing and why some many engines are messed up.

There are a lot details with making the brakes right and you NEED to have 4 excellent working shocks if you want to drive.

Now I am not against mods. The fact is the original car was reliable. The biggest problems in the day were tires, batteries and condensers. All of these are way better today. Fuel is much better today so going to a higher compression head is a safe mod. Putting on a voltage regulator on your generator is also something to consider.

In the end a car that runs great at 60 MPH runs great at any speed. Most of the cars I know the owners talk about 45 for a top speed do not appear to be safe at 45 MPH.

On last comment. The hard thing for many new owners of a "restored" to hear is that there car may need thousands of dollars of work. Unfortunately this is too common. Probably 10 years ago a local spent top bucks for a pickup that was professionally restored. He spent another $8000 making it safe to drive.

Pulling the top of the tranny off is not hard. Just a bunch of bolts and a cotter pin and it comes off. Use a rag to wipe off the gears and some and take some pictures of them. You can spin them around and inspect them as best you can.

[buyitsmart]

Wow! Great advice and insight from all. Thanks.
I appreciate the comments on how a car brought back to factory specs is adequate. My hope is to be able to drive the car as far as I desire, without having to worry that I am beating it up or harming it.

After I confirm the bottom of the engine is in good shape I do plan to add a HC head. (I am leaning towards a Snyder's 5.5)
I will definitely check out the clutch, pressure plate and transmission. I might even spring for a Mitchell transmission because I want my wife to be able to drive it...and I like the increased gearing for 1st and 2nd gear. Of course I could teach her to drive it stock, too.

I really like the idea of a HC head, 3.27 rear-end and a counter-weighted crank. They seem to be more affordable solutions than the OD. I might even do these before I add the Mitchell transmission and OD. If they get me to my goal of a touring car, I may stop there.

You are right about spending $$. I figured the Mitchell transmission, the Mitchell OD and a rebuilt engine would run around $8k. I could do a lot of other things to the car with $8k so I am hoping not to do any of these.

Thanks to all for helping me think this through. I hope to have a look see at the transmission and clutch before this evening. If I do, I will post some pics.

It's off to the local Model A supply store (Jerry's Model A Store in Casselberry, FL) for some of their thoughts.

One last question. What are your thoughts on a lightened flywheel? If I take the transmission out, wouldn't that be the time to do it? What are the benefits?
Pros and cons? And would that compliment the 3.27 diff. and HC head?

(I won't do the counter-weighted crank until my engine needs work and then I will probably do more than just the crank....soooo...I am hoping not to do that for a while)

[Modelakid31]

Remove the bell house cover and check you throw out bearing and check for oil on and around the the clutch & pressure plate