engine number . . . or serial number?

[highbeams]

Okay; thanks for that, Coop.

[Pech33]

What a great picture of the Long Beach, CA assembly plant! I worked at the AFEES (Armed Forces Entrance and Examining Station) in Atlanta after my all-expenses paid trip to Vietnam in 1968. The building in Atlanta (it is still there) had been a Ford assembly factory before they moved to the old location down by the airport, I believe. Anyway, Ford must have built the factories from the same blueprint, the picture of the Model A engines stacked up looks exactly like the Atlanta building. There were large elevators between floors to obviously move parts between. We thought it was BS that it had been a Ford factory, but the Long Beach picture shows that they were the same. I was back in Atlanta in 2019 and the building is now some kind of office. It still has the old steel frame single pane “push out” windows that I remember. Thanks for the memory.

[whizzernick]

does anyone have an idea why my 1933 phaeton has a eng-serial *18-177212*
on transmission and all three spots on frame. This is a CA car sold ( I have been told )
new in monterey Ca I also have been told that open cars were made late in the year
(march ) Thanks to all

[V8COOPMAN]

Originally Posted by whizzernick

does anyone have an idea why my 1933 phaeton has a eng-serial *18-177212*
on transmission and all three spots on frame. This is a CA car sold ( I have been told )
new in monterey Ca I also have been told that open cars were made late in the year
(march ) Thanks to all

Nick.....That is exactly the format in which the numbers SHOULD be stamped, EXCEPT that your specific numerical sequence (177212) appears to be a "1932 Ford V8" number. And when you look at 1932 Ford totals, you must remember that "Model 18" represents V8 engines ONLY, and NOT any 4-cylinder models which had their own PREFIX separate from the "18-" prefix. Ford's own publication titled "Research & Information Dept." lists two slightly different figures for V8-powered 1932 Ford (which have a "18-" prefix in their serial ("Motor") numbers. That document lists 191,084 in the original document, and 192,261 in a supplemental 1959 document. Nevertheless, 1932 Ford V8 production EXCEEDED the figure stamped on your 1933 chassis ( ☆18-177212☆ ) by ~15,000 numbers, which does not make any sense having a 1932 number on a 1933 chassis.

It is not impossible that a Ford factory worker (mostly all HUMANS) somehow got the wrong number in his head as he stamped that "1"77212 on your chassis, rather than perhaps "2"77212. Weird hand-stamped serial numbers are not the norm, but they are not uncommon, either. Coop

.

[DavidG]

For the first question, about the only two possible explanations are that the vehicle assembly plant guy holding the punch and hammer misread the number on the transmission or the guy at the Dearborn Engine Plant needed new glasses as that's a '32 engine number. A far more remote possibility is that the engine/transmission got misplaced in a corner of the assembly plant or in a corner at the Rouge in Dearborn only to be discovered and sent off to be used in a '33 vehicle months later.

(Remote, most certainly, but not impossible as a brand new '49 Ford got bricked in behind a wall at the Rouge Plant and next saw the light of day in 1965. That's not a rumor as I saw the car and the hole in the wall while the car was still in Ford's hands. The story made into the Dearborn newspaper.)

In those days, March was near or at the beginning of a model year in two notable instances (March was Job #1 for the '32s and January was Job #1 for the '33s) and open cars were produced in the first month in both those instances.

[waynet]

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Originally Posted by V8COOPMAN

"h'beams"....Please allow me to help you fully understand just a little bit mo-better about engine numbers, frame numbers & trans/bellhousing numbers.

Way back in the day....up through the 1931 Model "A", Ford actually did stamp the "Motor Number" on a smooth, blank pad that was cast on the drivers' side of the 4-cylinder blocks. When that engine/trans combination was lowered into a chassis on the assembly line, the chassis was also hand stamped with the SAME number stamped on the engine. On a Model A, that MOTOR Number was the easiest to see and be read on that engine pad, as the numbers stamped into the frame (on a Model A) cannot be seen without raising the body. Today, since many Model A engines have been swapped and replaced, it has become difficult to verify TITLE numbers without lifting the body from frame.

Now in 1932-1948, Ford began stamping sequential "Motor/Engine Numbers" (as they were STILL referred-to) on the transmission clutch housing pad at the time the transmission was bolted to the engine, creating a MOTOR/TRANS assembly. The term "Motor Number" was likely just carry-over from the Model A days as what it was referred-to in written manuals. That V8 engine/transmission assembly with stamped "Motor Number" on the trans pad was stored with thousands of other like assemblies, until they were shipped to automobile assembly plants all across the US. When each motor/trans assembly was lowered into a new chassis on the assembly line, the SAME "Motor Number" that was stamped into the trans pad in the engine assembly plant is now hand-stamped into the frame rail in the three usual locations. Clearly, the Motor Number (on transmission) has EVERYTHING to do with the three numbers located on the frame. Also note that it is much easier to verify the "Motor Number" stamped into the FRONT location of a frame rail, rather than having to remove the carpet/mat/padding material which is necessary to read the MOTOR Number on a '32-'48 transmission pad. Coop

.

Great article Coop.
The numbers on our '48 M47 Pickup all match on the 3 speed box, left front chassis rail and tag on firewall. But however the engine stamp (with a star at the end) does not match the others. Does an original 8BA engine/transmission "package" not have the same stamping on the engine and transmission?

[DavidG]

As Coop has repeated, post-Model A it was only the transmission that was originally stamped with the "engine" number. An engine with stamped numbers is indicative of one having been rebuilt for use in a jurisdiction that required the engines themselves be stamped when replacing the original engine.

[sugarmaker]

As David mentioned above. That is exactly how I found the number status of my 1932 AAB. Same number on frame in front of driver's side cowl. And on top of intermediate casting in back of engine. And the engine has reman numbers stamped on the side.
Regards,
Chris

[VeryTangled]

Originally Posted by waynet

Great article Coop.
The numbers on our '48 M47 Pickup all match on the 3 speed box, left front chassis rail and tag on firewall. But however the engine stamp (with a star at the end) does not match the others. Does an original 8BA engine/transmission "package" not have the same stamping on the engine and transmission?

Frame, body, and trans casing are still partners from day one, but the engine has left the building?

[waynet]

Originally Posted by VeryTangled

Frame, body, and trans casing are still partners from day one, but the engine has left the building?

The 8BA engine is Mercury built with a serial number stamped on the Top Right Rear part of the engine block where the intake manifold bolts on. This number is completely different to the other matching numbers so I cant tell if the engine is original to this pickup or not.