Dropping the Oil Pan

[Roadster Rich]

My 30 Roadster has not had the oil pan dropped since I was a kid. I remember doing it around 1964 or so. Then my dad sent it out for a more serious restoration in 1969. So I know that it has not been off since 69. I have changed the oil pretty faithfully, but now I have been about 18 months without driving it (that complete brake job started but not finished for a while, procrastination). If I drop the oil pan, will I definitely have to replace the rear seal? Or might I be lucky enough to just clean the pan out and the valve chamber with only the gasket replacements? I am thinking this is the time to check her out and not just start back up again for 40 years!

[V4F]

if i remember correctly ..... change the rear cork , front rope , side rails , valve cover gasket ..................

[midgetracer]

Sometimes you get lucky and the rear cork stays in place well, but after this many years, it is probably hard and could use a changeout. It usually will stay in place with some of the new gasket adhesives available.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Not a bad idea just in case non-detergent oil was used for even a short period.

If ever using non-detergent oil, crud on pan bottom can plug up the screen on oil pump & drain holes in valve compartment can get stopped up where oil ceases to flow to main bearings.

[Purdy Swoft]

The rear pan seal is a tight fit on the rear main bearing cap. I've never seen the seal fall out on any of the model A engines that I have torn down. If the pan gaskets are in good shape and remain stuck to the block you can probably get by re useing them. If the pan gaskets are replaced it will be necessary to remove the rear oil pan seal. There is a small tab at the rear of the pan gaskets that must fit in the groove under the rear pan seal on each side. If the tabs on the pan gasket are removed instead of being installed correctly it will create two weak spots that will leak oil.

[Tom Wesenberg]

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I wouldn't worry about removing the pan due to the car setting for 18 months. I don't think anything bad happened due to setting a year and a half. Sludge forms from years of using non-detergent oil. Acids can form from many short drives where the motor oil doesn't get hot enough to burn off the water and raw gas formed during cold starts.

How many miles since the rebuild. I'd only drop the pan to check bearing clearance if it has enough miles, or if you need to check some unusual noise.

I don't replace gaskets, unless they tear into many pieces during the pan removal.

[Roadster Rich]

Thanks, but the early years were probably a problem. My dad said to always use non-detergent oil, so probably until about 10 years ago, that was what I used. Sounds like I better order the gaskets and seal material just in case, and take both the pan and valve chamber off.

[MikeK]

Sludge removal, my favorite job! I Hope you don't need clean fingernails for a Christmas party with the relatives.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Rich,

No doubt you have a most interesting topic here that could be written in a very concise outlined report to educate all of us.

You have a good title for what one can expect to find in any Model A oil pan.

if you feel up to it, by recording the approximate dates of Model A storage, approximate dates of use and approximate dates of types of oil used over certain periods of time, & other pertinent factors, after oil pan & valve cover removal, you could report on the quantity of any thick gooey sludge you may find:

A. In the oil pan bottom; &,

B. In the valve chamber bottom.

Appears it would definitely help others in the future with a similar question.

[Roadster Rich]

Next week I will start by removing the valve cover to see what I see. I will take pictures and try to post with the appropriate history of the use and maintenance. Will then move on to the pan, when the gaskets and parts get here.

[sethkestenbaum]

Rich, I will be following it closely. I've been delaying dropping the pan on mine.

[Roadster Rich]

Okay, first a little history from my memory. The Roadster was owned by my father since he was 16 (1945). When he was 24 (1953) he moved to Vermont and moved the roadster up into a field under a leantoo shed with a canvas tarp over it. In 1966 (me 14 years old), he told me that I could have the car if I worked on it to get it in shape. That year I pulled it from the field. Unfortuantely he had pulled the head and it had mice nests throughout the block. But the rest of the engine was buttoned up. I took it all apart, plastigaged the rods and crank and found everything within acceptable tolerance and put it all back together. The pistons were already .080 thousands over size and he remembered having a Ford garage in Maine do that back in the late 40's when he was in college. I relapped the valves, added new guides and added the double nut tappits. I buttoned the engine back up in 1966. I drove the car all through high school and then in college also. Lots of hot suppers for this car making a frequent trek from Troy, NY to Burlington where my girlfriend (now my wife) was in school. I figure that I put at least 10,000 miles on this in the 8 years of school. Then in 1975 my dad had Page's Model A in northern NH take the car to do a good rebuild. I remember them saying that they did not change anything on the engine, as it seemed in such good shape. A new timing gear was all I remember them doing on the engine.

So the last time this was opened up was in 1975. Since then it stayed in my dad's barn in Vermont until I took it to my home in Saratoga, NY in 1982. I have had it ever since and have driven it every year, but I doubt I put more than 750 miles on per year.

I always used a straight 30 wt NON detergent oil. Changed every year. I remember being told that these should have nondetergent. Only in about 1999 to 2001 did I change and start using Mobil 1 usually 5W30 which I started then to use in all my cars.

Now the fun part. You would not believe how much excitement to open her up again 46 years after I last did and 37 since it last was opened by anyone.

First observation, nearly every nut or bolt was little more than finger tight! A wonder that this did not leak like crazy or have serious manifold leaks.
Engine Start #1A.jpg
First picture is the engine as I started. Note the lack of the generator. Just finished up adding one of Tom W's EVR's and now need to reinstall.
Exh Manifold off #3A.jpg

Second Picture is with the manifolds removed. Looked pretty clean, but you can see where it was leaking right at the center area. It has a single piece gasket. I could use advice for what gaskets I should get when I put her back together.
Valve Cover off #4A.jpg
Next is with the valve cover off. Amazing to me how clean this looked.
Front 4 Valves #5A.jpg
These are the front four valves.
Distr Shaft #6A.jpg
Here is the distributor shaft. Some particles and dirt here but no sludge.
Rear 4 Valves #7A.jpg
Here are the rear 4 valves.
Rear Chamber #8A.jpg
Here you can see the only substance in the valve chamber and this is only a surface smear that cannot be over 1/32nd deep right in this area.
Manifold #9A.jpg
Here is the manifold the way it came off. Of interest, I don't think I have ever removed the carb from the manifold since 1975 either.
Valve Cover & Oil Tube #10A.jpg
Last is the valve cover and oil tube. The oil tube fell apart as I removed it, but seems like I only need to slip fit back together.

Altogether I am really pleased to see what this looks like. Next I will pull the pan, but might not get to that until this weekend or the next. I will follow up with pictures on how that looks also.

[H. L. Chauvin]

Rich,

You came as a student with a question, & now you are teaching Model A Graduate School Courses in color with great pics.

It may be better off if you soldered the oil return tube after thorough cleaning where it slips together.

Good job.

[columbiA]

With the valve chamber that clean,I wouldnt bother dropping the pan,unless you want a make-work project.I would tighten up the pan bolts with a short handled wrench & change the oil after its warmed up & use a 15-40 detergent oil & change every 1,000 miles.As for the oil return pipe,It would be easy to find an other one.make sure you find the longer one used from May 29 to 31.

[rollingsculpture]

with that much rust particulate in the gally i would drop the pan and make sure of what is down below no need to chance scoring cyl walls

[H. L. Chauvin]

Lots of rust damage to "unused" engines for different lengths of time depends many times on local climate & humidity.

Saw the bottom side of a NOS almost perfect Model A cam get severly pitted while in heated inside storage for 30 years in New York-- removed it & changed it out.

Many no doubt can offer outstanding opinions based on actual different experiences -- let us all hope for the best.

Even though a chore, pan removal may help Rich with peace-of-mind maybe needed for the next long trip away from home.

[mhsprecher]

Most seem to recommend the two piece copper manifold gaskets. I didn't see gland rings in the block or the manifold. The gaskets from Bratton's are used with the gland rings. The ones from A&L do not use them. I bought both kinds, but used the ones from Bratton's with new gland rings when I replaced my manifold last weekend. See my post about that process.

[marc hildebrant]

In the First picture, what is the hole in the firewall, bottom left corner for ?

Marc

[Roadster Rich]

Marc, Not sure what hole you are talking about. Here is a shot of my firewallLeft Firewall #12A.jpg
Only a hole for the speedo cable and the GAV.

More concern for me is a close look at the hole between the valve chamber and the timing gear chamber. Looks really ragged like it was broken out. Is this normal?
Timing Chamber Hole #11A.jpg

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Roadster Rich

Marc, Not sure what hole you are talking about. Here is a shot of my firewallAttachment 110256
Only a hole for the speedo cable and the GAV.

More concern for me is a close look at the hole between the valve chamber and the timing gear chamber. Looks really ragged like it was broken out. Is this normal?
Attachment 110257

That hole in the front fools a lot of people, but that's the way the factory made it, so it's fine.