55 Ford Wagon Timing Question:

[poolplayer1]

So I have my 302 initial timing set to 12 degree BTDC and its running good, eighter at idle or going down the road ( other than the overheating) problem.I was talking to a man that had his own auto repair shop here in town for about 45 years. He moved out of town a long time ago but came to visit his daughter for a week. I have known him for years and was a real good mechanic, especially on the 50's tru 90's cars. Anyway I was telling him about my wagon running hot. He asked me how I had my timing settings and I told him my settings. He said that my 302 should be set at 6 degree BTDC but at the same time he said that every engine is different. He said the simple way for me to do to do it was to advance the timing until I hear knocking/ pinging and than retard it until the pinging was gone. I remember when this man would set the carburetor idle screws by just listening to the motor. He would do the same when adjusting the distributor, just move it back and forth until he heard the engine running smoothly. He had a real good reputation as a excellent mechanic. I do understand and have heard the saying, If it aint broke, don't fix it but I wanted your opinion on the 2 different settings, where I have it now at 12 BTDC or the 6BTDC he mentioned. I guess I can always just play around with it to look at it to see how the engine reacts when running at 6 degree. What do you think?
You guys are the pro's compared to a learning in progress guy like me. Thanks to all as always.

[Dobie Gillis]

This is just my opinion but if it overheats with the timing set at 12 degrees I think I'd try a little more advance. Setting the timing at 6 degrees has a good chance of making it overheat worse.

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Dobie, I'm always open to opinions and suggestions. Lets see what other guys have to say on this subject.

[cadillac512]

If it's running hot, neither 6 degrees initial timing nor 12 degrees is going to fix it. The problem is not timing if it runs well but gets hot at 12 degrees.



Terry

[40cpe]

Initial timing has little to do with running hot except with prolonged idle. The distributor advances (or should) as engine speed increases. About 35 degrees should be close to max advance. A timing light should be used to set the distributor at 2500-3000 rpm to max advance and let the initial fall where it may. Distributor advance operation should be checked. If it isn't advancing, it should be corrected. Low timing is inefficient and because more fuel is being used, more heat is produced. If you still have the Load-O-Matic distributor, it relies on vacuum alone to provide advance. A vacuum leak or a bad vacuum advance will prevent any advance above the initial setting. Observing the timing with a timing light while revving the engine will tell you a lot.

[cadillac512]

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He's running a '68 302 so no Load-o-matic distributor. Almost always in cases like this the radiator is simply not able to exchange enough heat, whether it be from mineral deposits inside it or just plain to small for the job. A retrofit electric fan seldom works as well as a stock type mechanical fan with shroud either. I'd be strongly suspicious of the cleanliness of the radiator unless it's been correctly cleaned recently or is new.
You do have a lot of heat to deal with in 100+ ambients and a/c as well as the engine. My 2 cents is saying a better radiator and a mechanical fan may be the real cure.



Terry

[40cpe]

[QUOTE=cadillac512;2262393]He's running a '68 302 so no Load-o-matic distributor. [QUOTE]

OOPS, missed that.

[paul2748]

I have to ask - what are the temps and where/how is it being measured. The gauge alone, thermometer in the radiator, using one of those temperature guns at various parts of the engine? Relying on the gauge alone is not a good idea, especially if the stock gauge.

Another question - what gauges are you using and what senders are you using? Compatibility problem?

This can give us a better understanding of the problem.

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by paul2748

I have to ask - what are the temps and where/how is it being measured. The gauge alone, thermometer in the radiator, using one of those temperature guns at various parts of the engine? Relying on the gauge alone is not a good idea, especially if the stock gauge.

Another question - what gauges are you using and what senders are you using? Compatibility problem?

This can give us a better understanding of the problem.

^^^^Excellent questions. Bottom line-Is it actually getting too hot or is a gauge lying to you?

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by 40cpe

If you still have the Load-O-Matic distributor, it relies on vacuum alone to provide advance. A vacuum leak or a bad vacuum advance will prevent any advance above the initial setting. Observing the timing with a timing light while revving the engine will tell you a lot.

First of all, timing should not be attempted until first disconnecting the vacuum line from the dizzy vacuum advance. You need to plug the tubing from the carb with a vacuum cap. If you have converted to rubber hose, just stick a sharpened pencil in the end of that hose and it will hold vacuum from the carburator. Now you are ready to check the timing as long as you have the idle/fuel mixture screws and the idle-speed setting properly adjusted.
Run engine at idle speed and flash timing light at the timing pointer. Adjust the distributor rotation till you get the desired timing. Factory setting for Y-blocks is something like 6 degrees BTDC, but some people here like it a little higher to compensate for this lousy ethanol gas we have nowdays.

[Daves55Sedan]

Easy way to check actual engine coolant temperature is to get one of those cheap cooking thermometers that you stick into a baked turkey (but don't use the wife's kitchen devices). Get a separate one to use just for garage projects.
Run the engine till warm up is done and remove radiator cap. Stick the thermometer down in the coolant. The needle on the thermometer will begin moving quickly. When the needle settles, that is your operating temperature at idle.

[KULTULZ]

If INITIAL TIMING is set @ 12BTDC and the engine doesn't rattle under load, there is something wrong.

If the timing marks show that amount of advance at correct curb idle (vacuum signal disconnected), either the curb idle is too high or there is something faulty either in the DIST mechanical advance, DIST install, timing chain and/or damper ring.

The MECHANICAL ADVANCE in the DIST has to have initial advance set @ OEM curb idle or it will show advance (mechanical advance cuts in)(and if the advance curve has not been modified). It has to have a ported vacuum signal to allow the OEM mechanical advance to work correctly.

You can plot the mechanical advance with a timing light and tach.

That has to be one hell of an AC COMP to draw the idle down like that. HOLLEY makes a throttle kicker kit to increase curb idle under engine load.

If the A/C COND install mod doesn't work, I would buy a QUALITY mechanical water temp gauge (for testing) and go from there. If you remove a radiator cap while the coolant is @ 190 degrees, the loss of cap pressure (opening) may allow the coolant to reach boiling point and that could be very bad.

If you could post some photo(s) of the COOLING MODULE and FEAD it would make things a lot easier. I am guessing a lot of air deflectors were not re-installed also. The incoming air has to be directed to move through the RAD. Does you fan have a good shroud?

The way the guy adjusted timing was referred to as POWER TIMING. That may be OK for a hot street engine but not for a driver with A/C.

[KULTULZ]

- CONTINUATION OF ABOVE POST -

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel...ge/parts/46-74

The fan, is it a single or double blade? Is it contained within a shroud?

How is it triggered (coolant sensor)? Is it wired to increase speed w/ AC?

Can you post make and model no.?

NOTE - This thread is a continuation of a previous thread found here -

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331572

[poolplayer1]

Thanks to all for your great information and advice on my project. I had to do some things today and was not be able to drive my car to see how it does on the road, until tomorrow. I am going to try to post pictures of the installation of the AC, Radiator, and fan. Hopefully you will be able to see them. The motor is a little dusty but I am waiting to get this overheating problem taken care off before I power wash the engine and engine bay.

[poolplayer1]

That I have the camera on my iphone working, I decided to post a few more pixs of my wagon.

[miker98038]

Given the advise from Vintage Air, the next thing is a proper shroud. Your losing a significant amount of surface area on that radiator with that fan set up. I’ve been there and done that.

The second picture I can see from the top of the radiator thru to the grille. That’s an air by pass at highway speed, and part of the problem. The condenser in front doesn’t help. Look at the shroud picture I posted in the other thread of my bird. It can be adapted from something else, doesn’t matter. You need airflow thru the whole radiator working surface.

The good news is your running 220 or so on a 105*day with the a/c on and didn’t boil. Running within 100* of ambient on our old cars with a/c added is pretty good, and you’re real close now.

Clearance for a proper shroud is going to be difficult with the fan as deep as it is.

Very nice classy ride.

[poolplayer1]

Thank you miker98038. The guy at vintage air said that as long as the fan covers 75% of the radiator, it should be good. The fan has its own shroud and when its running at 3000 CFM, if you stand next to eighter fender, you can feel how much hot air its pulling away from the rad. I am limited to space between the fan and the water pump pulley. As you can see on the photo, I had to use allen type screws because the square head bolts were hitting the fan.
I had to move the rad, forward to get the extra space to fit the fan. That was a job because of the way the body is formed where the rad. sits at the bottom. That fan was the only one I could get that was not too deep.

[KULTULZ]

The guy at vintage air said that as long as the fan covers 75% of the radiator, it should be good. The fan has its own shroud ...

That's not a shroud, it is a fan mounting bracket.

This is an electric fan and shroud assy -

[KULTULZ]

Am I seeing correctly? Is the upper and lower radiator hoses on the same side (end) of the radiator?

[miker98038]

I’m not arguing with Vintage Air, but if that’s a 16” fan on a 16x20 or so core, you’re barely at 75%, probably under. Normally not a big deal, but at 105*+ there’s not much room for error. I just went thru 3 weeks of 95-103*, and I didn’t car how the car cooled. Short trip to the store and back, I’m done when it’s 90.

But you’re real close, you’ll figure it out.

Good eye Kultulz. I don’t know enough about radiators to know what the internal flow is. I’m just familiar with vertical and cross flow. Don’t remember if I ever had a vertical with the hoses on the same side.

[Daves55Sedan]

You are using a '57 Radiator in a '55? Can't tell by the pictures, but since the '57/58 radiator is shorter and wider than the '55, you don't have any cooling on the last couple of vertical cooling tubes in the radiator on each side because they are blocked from getting air by the front wall panels.
Also that '57 radiator doesn't look as deep (wide) as the original '55 radiator was. Same amount of cooling capacity, but the '57 radiator made up in width what the '55 had in height. Could be a substantial loss in cooling capacity with this arrangement. But I understand you had problems with space due to the 302 water pump sticking out so far.
Anyway, something to think about.
BTW, nice looking '55 Mainline 2-dr wagon. If it were me, I would put the stainless belt moulding back on around the base of the top, but from a distance, you probably can't tell.

[KULTULZ]

I don’t know enough about radiators to know what the internal flow is. I’m just familiar with vertical and cross flow. Don’t remember if I ever had a vertical with the hoses on the same side.

Well, here's the thing. FORD used that style RAD on pre-1971 SBF, why I don't know. That's why the WP has a RS radiator bottom tank outlet because of the design of the donor engine time period. Now the coolant is discharged into the RS upper tank and instead of dropping in the tubes evenly across the core to the bottom tank, the coolant is dropped mainly across the RS of the core not allowing full incoming cooling air contact (hang time).

What I want to know it's being a custom radiator and when built, if the customer asked for both inlet/outlet being put on the same side for a 55 FORD, why didn't this ring any bells?

Add this to no shroud, lack of seals/deflectors around the RAD/COND and you start to see the problem(s). Even the bottom splash shields used on the 54/56 are important for air flow.

As for the WP snout size, a short snout style is available but one would have to change all of the drive pulleys ($$$).

One other thing I failed to mention ...

You have to determine that the lower radiator hose is not collapsing at high RPM (suction). The hose has to have that spring in it.

It is a nice looking car ...

[KULTULZ]

Hey Dave?

I'm not too well versed on much before 1957 but didn't the 1955 have a radiator mounting position for either the inline six or the V8, allowing the radiator to be moved forward somewhat? This would negate the long snout WP interference with the fan motor?

[KULTULZ]

I am going to try to post pictures of the installation of the AC, Radiator, and fan.

Hopefully you will be able to see them.

GREATLY APPRECIATED!

Those photos made everything much more clear.

[poolplayer1]

Thanks guys for all your suggestions and or advice and also for the comments on the looks of my wagon. its very much appreciated. I think you all are thinking about all that was used in the 55, which is what this wagon is. However, as I posted along time ago, we took the 272 motor and tranny out and replaced it with this 302 that is in there now along with the C4 tranny. All this came from a 1968 ford custom wagon . That radiator came from the 68ford too. Once I get this problem solved, my next 2 projects are power brakes and power steering. Those are expensive so I have to take one at a time. Which do you guys think I should do first, brakes or steering. Which is the though one to do? I'll leave that one for last. Also, I have been trying to find chrome molding but I can't seem to find any. Do any of you guys know where I can find the correct ones for this wagon. One more thing, I want to replace the brake pedal with a wider one. Would I have to replace the brake pedal arm too. Will a arm and pedal from a 68 mount to the 55? If I can't find anything that will work, I'll just leave it alone. If it ain't broke, don't fix it, right?

[KULTULZ]

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All this came from a 1968 ford custom wagon . That radiator came from the 68ford too.

That explains the radiator. I thought (for some reason ... ) ... that it was a custom aftermarket.

ADDENDUM -

Being a 1968 FORD (full size car?) radiator, DAVE's comments come into play. To wit -

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

You are using a '57 Radiator in a '55? Can't tell by the pictures, but since the '57/58 radiator is shorter and wider than the '55, you don't have any cooling on the last couple of vertical cooling tubes in the radiator on each side because they are blocked from getting air by the front wall panels.

Also that '57 radiator doesn't look as deep (wide) as the original '55 radiator was. Same amount of cooling capacity, but the '57 radiator made up in width what the '55 had in height. Could be a substantial loss in cooling capacity with this arrangement. But I understand you had problems with space due to the 302 water pump sticking out so far.

Anyway, something to think about.

Does the rad core fit width within the core support opening?

[KULTULZ]

Is the below trim level you are looking for?

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Hey Dave?

I'm not too well versed on much before 1957 but didn't the 1955 have a radiator mounting position for either the inline six or the V8, allowing the radiator to be moved forward somewhat? This would negate the long snout WP interference with the fan motor?

The side brackets (NOT the U-shaped radiator support bracket), i'm talking the "L" shaped brackets which are soldered on to the top and bottom radiator tanks are different thus:
The Y-block radiators had symmetrical side brackets that mounted the radiator straight up onto the support bracket, but on the I-block 6's, the radiator side brackets slanted forward so that the top radiator tank filled in that space at the center of the front air deflector. The cross-bar at the top of the radiator support for the V8 mounted in front of the top radiator tank. On the I-6, that same cross-bar mounted behind the top radiator tank.
But since the side brackets on the I-6 were slanted, the bottom of the radiator was still close to the engine, while the top of the radiator slanted forward.
It worked for the I-6 due to it's shallow crankshaft damper at the bottom, but I don't know if he could get away with using a '55/56 I-6 radiator using a 302 V8.
Another thing is the I-6 radiator tanks had smaller hose connections, but one could burn the tanks off a V8 radiator and solder them on an I-6 radiator.
Top hose connection is far right and bottom hose connection is far left on V-8 tanks. The I-6 connections are the opposite of the V8, and the top tank connection is slid closer to the center of the top tank.
He'd need to determine if the hose sizes and locations would work out with the 302 water pump.

[Daves55Sedan]

Originally Posted by KULTULZ

Is the below trim level you are looking for

Nope, that is a Ranch wagon. They had the same trim package as a Customline. He has a Mainline wagon (or it appears to be, unless he stripped all the trim off).
ALL '55 car models had the belt moulding around the base of the top, even the Mainline models. However the Mainlines were the only ones that did NOT have upper windshield and rear window trim. The bare rubber gasket was exposed on these. None of the Mainlines in '55 had any body side trim at all.
They changed that philosophy somewhat in '56.

[Daves55Sedan]

Excuse me for not realizing he had a '68 radiator folks, but the same philosophy applies to what I wrote earlier about the loss in tube height and blocked tubing at the sides.
'56 was the last year for the tall radiators, they actually used the same radiator cores in the trucks, but with different side brackets.
My worry, if I had done this, is that unless you cut out portions of the front wall plates to allow the ends of the shorter, wider radiator, those end rows of tubing on both sides are not being cooled at all. The modification to fix that would need to include the radiator support bracket for the '68 radiator and throw out the old '55 radiator support U-shaped bracket. You'd have to drill new holes in the front wall panels to mount the panels to the '68 support bracket.

[KULTULZ]

... that is a Ranch wagon. They had the same trim package as a Customline. He has a Mainline wagon (or it appears to be, unless he stripped all the trim off).

That was what I was asking, how he wants it trimmed. If stock, I would need the BODY CODE.

Thanks about the RAD info. So the difference is how the support brackets are attached to the core (either six or eight) and not special brackets to allow a more forward mounting to the core support?

[KULTULZ]

Now that we know the radiator is from a 68 donor, along with the complete FEAD (Front End Accessory Drive) and WP style, it comes down to the RAD fitting properly within the core support, the fan/shroud style and if the take-out RAD was tanked, pressure tested and flow tested.

Another factor might be the core size (height) as opposed to the stock 55 tall radiator.

[KULTULZ]

Once I get this problem solved, my next 2 projects are power brakes and power steering. Those are expensive so I have to take one at a time. Which do you guys think I should do first, brakes or steering.

Here is a referring thread to a FRONT DISC CONVERSION -

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331827

As for the pedal, I would wait until you decide how you want to go about the brake conversion.

[5851a]

They switched to the more common lower drivers side and upper passenger side in 69 for small blocks. Question to OP, is the sensor in the Tstat housing the fan trigger or for gauge? Gauge should be in intake. As Miker said you need to seal the radiator to the front opening, letting no air bypass.

[poolplayer1]

Thanks Guys, you all are great in discussing this heat problem. Daves55sedan, man, you really know your radiators, very talented person. Not only with radiators but other parts of the 55/56 fords. Of course we are not going to leave out Kultulz and all the other very smart mechanics in this forum. Kultulz, Yes that is the trim that I am looking for to put on my wagon. If you know of a place that I can get it from, please let me know. I had to make changes to the body side panels where the radiator side flanges bolt to in order to be able to move the Rad. forward to make room for the electric fan. The radiator core is free from any blockage from the side mounting panels. It fits right between the side panels. The only thing in front of the radiator is the AC condensor.
Oh, by the way. When talking about whether the condensor is in front or behind the radiator, Is the front of the Rad.being facing the street or looking at it from inside the cab. Sorry for the stupid question but it would be good for me to know. Also, the thermostatic switch that you see is for controlling the start cycle of the fan. The one for the temp. gauge is at the intake. I drove it around over the weekend and the temp. went up to 215 degrees. Better than the last time which went up to 225. I'm thinking about bringing the timing down to 6 BTDC to see if that makes any changes to the coolant temp. Do you thats a good idea? Right now its at 12 BTDC. Let me know what you think. Thanks for the link on the brake conversion Kultulz.

[KULTULZ]

When talking about whether the condensor is in front or behind the radiator, Is the front of the Rad.being facing the street or looking at it from inside the cab. Sorry for the stupid question but it would be good for me to know.

There is no stupid question, other than my asking my LITTLE THUMBSCREW to marry me.

The condenser is mounted outwards of the RAD towards the grille,

[KULTULZ]

Can you post the MANUFACTURER and KIT NO of the electric fan kit?

[miker98038]

In general retarding the timing will make an engine run hotter not cooler. But from 12 to 6 I doubt you’ll see much difference. Probably see it more in the change in total advance running about 2-3000 rpm. Less power. 68 was the beginning of more stringent emission controls, but I don’t know what they did to a sbf. Or if any of that is left on your engine.

Brakes and steering. Well set up drums are ok, but getting good linings is a problem. High speed stops will almost certainly improve with a proper well engineered front disc. A bad job won’t be better except possibly for fade. But since power steering is more of a low speed item (again, good parts and proper alignment) highway steering should be ok. Given you can work at it in a parking lot, but when you have to stop at highway speeds you have to STOP. So I’d do the brakes first.

Try getting the airflow items around the radiator. You can do that with cardboard and duct tape for test purposes. It sounds to me like you’re really close to being ok. Maybe the little tweaks will solve it.

[poolplayer1]

Ok guys, I will see what else I can do to the Rad. to get more air flow to it. The electric fan is from summit racing. That fan really Sucks, ( No Pun Intended) .Yes, it sucks all that hot air from the Rad. Well, most of it. I am going to post a pix of it so you guys can see it. Thanks as usuall.

[scicala]

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

Nope, that is a Ranch wagon. They had the same trim package as a Customline. He has a Mainline wagon (or it appears to be, unless he stripped all the trim off).
ALL '55 car models had the belt moulding around the base of the top, even the Mainline models. However the Mainlines were the only ones that did NOT have upper windshield and rear window trim. The bare rubber gasket was exposed on these. None of the Mainlines in '55 had any body side trim at all.
They changed that philosophy somewhat in '56.

There were two Ranch Wagons offered in '55 and '56.
The base Mainline version without side trim and no trim around the front and back windows. and the Customline version with trim
and upgraded interior.
Neither one had a badge that said Customline or Mainline, but they both had a fender badge that said Ranch Wagon.
Body code for the Mainline version was 59A. The Customline was 59B.
I own a '55 59A.

Sal

[poolplayer1]

I just checked and mine is a 59A also. Did you buy trimming from a customline to put on your wagon or just left it without any side trim. I'm trying to find side body trim for my wagon. I think it would give it a better look. I am waiting to see if Kultulz may know of a place where I can find it. Or if anyone here knows of a place, please let me know. Do you have a picture of your 55 here at the forum?

[KULTULZ]

I am waiting to see if Kultulz may know of a place where I can find it. Or if anyone here knows of a place, please let me know. Do you have a picture of your 55 here at the forum?

I'm working on it. I have the MLDG ILL of the 59B. Trying to find ILL of 59A. It is missing from the 1949/59 MPC FINAL ISSUE.

ADDENDUM #1 -

59A - MAINLINE RANCH WAGON
59B - CUSTOMLINE RANCH WAGON

See This Site For Reference Materials -

ADDENDUM #2 -

... duh ...

It seems the 59A came through with no side moldings -

See ILL on above webpage.

Are you wanting to take it to CUSTOMLINE LEVEL or leave it stock?

[poolplayer1]

So my wagon did not come with any body trim. I already made a lot of changes to it so if the trim from the customline ( 59B) will fit it, I'll go with that if its available.
Thanks KULTULZ for your help. Another option is to have a guy put pin stripping on it I guess. There is a guy here in town that does real good work on that and also air brush work. I just don't want to make it look to modern other than the trimming.

[KULTULZ]

Originally Posted by poolplayer1

So my wagon did not come with any body trim. I already made a lot of changes to it so if the trim from the customline ( 59B) will fit it, I'll go with that if its available.

Thanks KULTULZ for your help.

Not so quick, I goofed up.

I did not include this - http://1955-ford.com/ - in my post above (CONTINUING ONSLAUGHT OF CRS).

It will give you all kinds of info including PARTS SOURCES - http://1955-ford.com/old-ford-part-and-info-links.html

It may be that you will have to find it all either take-off (salvage yard - many cater to older cars) or EvilBay.

I would think the fender and door mldgs were the same as a 2DR SEDAN with possibly the QUARTER MLDG being different. I will run the PN's for you if needed.

... sorry about that ...

ADDENDUM -

SOME EYE CANDY FOR YOU ...

http://1955-ford.com/1955-ford-stati...om-ranch-wagon

[poolplayer1]

Thanks KULTULZ. This is great information on the links to the 55 ford wagons. I Will take a look at those links and get familiar with all that came on as standard and upgraded accessories.