The Ford Barn

DeBordEngineMan · 07-25-2010, 05:32 PM

Hey guys I have ordered just about all new brake parts for the 29 Tudor I ordered cast drums from Mel Gross should be in this week and the rest from Bratton's and a local clutch and brake relining shop are doing my shoes with the same linings that a Model A restorer in the area uses but I did not get new hubs going to use my old ones, the problem is my studs have been welded to the hubs I was going to leave them alone like they are and install drums I know that is not correct way to do but if I grind the studs off from behind (Randy, Me'ls son said you could do that) I might ruin the hubs. Looks like they have been welded down in the recesses where the stud seats on hub and I am afraid they may pull threw the hub when swedged ? Not sure? I am having more trouble with the brakes than any other part of the car so far. Can I run the drums on the welded studs? I was going to grind the hubs down in back and remove studs and get new studs and have them swedged like they are suppose to be until I saw how they were welded. Can I safely run the drums on these hubs like they are(welded) until I can afford new hubs? Are the old studs long enough to work "if" you can run the drums this way seeing that the new drums are thicker? The two front hubs I can grind off pretty easy and do them right but the back studs look like that the studs are flatter on the back side of the drum than the front and this where the weld looks like it is in were the stud seats to the hub. Sorry for so many repeated posts about the brakes. Thanks, Robert DeBord

Steve Wastler · 07-25-2010, 05:53 PM

Wow, what farmer did that welding? Sorry couldn't resist. If the weld is only on the outer side of the stud "head" you may be ok, I think I would give it a grind on the one that looks the weakest, that way you only have to replace one now, if you ruin it, and its not in the budget for the rest. I also think I would feel uncomfortable doing any serious driving. Just my thoughts...

Ron in Quincy · 07-25-2010, 06:19 PM

I , myself wouldn't even considering installing new cast iron drums on hubs like you have. I believe you need to locate some good hubs. The new cast iron drums are designed to be installed on the hubs, then the drum is turned to true the drum to the hub. It sounds like you just ordered new drums and plan on taking care of all the other work associated with making the new drums workable. When Mel gross or Berts does the complete job they install new studs which requires at the minimum a 20 ton press, they true the drum to the hub etc.

Only my opinion, Ron

CWPASADENA · 07-25-2010, 06:35 PM

I think I would shop around and see if you can find some good used Hubs. I think there are plenty of them out there with worn out drums that you can buy for little of nothing.

I would try looking in the For Sale Stuff on the Barn and also even posting an ad for some good used hubs and see what happens.

The Model A studs are non too long as it is and you may not have much left in the way of threads with the thicker drums and also this looks to be a real bad job.

Try removing a few studs and see what you have. The hubs may not look so bad when you get all that old weld and the studs out.

My opinion,

Chris .

dlshady · 07-25-2010, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron in Quincy

I , myself wouldn't even considering installing new cast iron drums on hubs like you have. I believe you need to locate some good hubs. The new cast iron drums are designed to be installed on the hubs, then the drum is turned to true the drum to the hub. It sounds like you just ordered new drums and plan on taking care of all the other work associated with making the new drums workable. When Mel gross or Berts does the complete job they install new studs which requires at the minimum a 20 ton press, they true the drum to the hub etc.

Only my opinion, Ron

Good advice here. There's a reason that you've been having so much trouble with your brakes, and it stems from the fact that they were never built properly. For some reason this is the number one thing on Model A's that I see people trying to shortcut, and it always comes back to haunt them.

I'm certainly not knocking you for asking questions because that's how you learn, but the first thing you need to understand is that there are no shortcuts with brakes. Ford swedged the studs for a reason, and in order to have properly working brakes they need to be put back just like Henry designed them. When built right they'll stop as good as anything out there, but building them right involves time and attention to detail. A little attention to the minute details now will reward you tenfold once the car is on the road.

One other thing to consider with the welded studs is what damage might have been done from the heat. For what a set of good useable hubs would cost, I think I'd scrap those. It'd be cheap insurance. I don't know where in Tennessee you're located but if you're in middle TN near Nashville, PM me and I'll give you as fellow's number that can fix you up with a good set.

Just my 2 cents...
Deron

Purdy Swoft · 07-25-2010, 06:45 PM

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Robert, I'm not telling you what to do. I have run lots of model A's with welded studs and have never had a problem. The main problem with welded lug bolts is the rear hubs will rub the emergency brakes if the welds are not pretty flat. If the hubs were not giving any problem with the emergency brakes, if it was mine and I needed to use them I wouldn't grind them at all. Too much grinding can weaken the welds. I can't see what would be unsafe. If the weld fails you will have a lug nut that spins when you try to remove it and you will need to remove the wheel and hub as a unit and re weld. Nobody will see the welds or ever know the difference. Otherwise get ready to spend quite a bit more money, with no noticable improvement. This is just common sense to me and I am sure that lots of others have done the same, I know that I have seen lots of welded lug bolts over the past 50 years of model A ing. Good luck.

Model T Monte · 07-25-2010, 08:24 PM

I have a set just like that out in the garage that I plan on useing on one of my cars. I see no danger in those. Monte

DeBordEngineMan · 07-25-2010, 10:05 PM

Thanks guys for all the great advice I think that I will just let this post ride a little to see if there are anymore that would like to comment on this topic all comments and advice are welcomed from the newbie! I like to read a lot of different opinions before I start on a new project, Thanks Robert DeBord

Jim Parker Toronto · 07-25-2010, 10:48 PM

I've seen some that way, and they put new cast iron drums on the hubs with the welded studs. Two thousand miles later, the holes in the drum were worn egg shaped from the drum moving on the hub. I agree with Steve about the welding job. The good news is that welds like that can be ground off easily because they don't have any penetration and probably did not hurt the hub. While you have the front hubs off, check to see that they are not cracked down in center of the hub. Then have them trued up on a lathe. Make sure first that the races are tight in the hub. If loose, discard them! On the rears, clean them up also and check that the inner race of the is no larger than 3.1925". If so, discard them too! Have them faced on a lathe as well.
Before you get the shoes relined, make sure the pin holes are not excessively worn. The roller pin should be snug in the hole. This is what keeps the shoes in alignment top and bottom.
Let us know how you make out, and good luck!!

07-25-2010, 05:53 PM	#2
Steve Wastler Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,987	Re: Another drum and hub question? Wow, what farmer did that welding? Sorry couldn't resist. If the weld is only on the outer side of the stud "head" you may be ok, I think I would give it a grind on the one that looks the weakest, that way you only have to replace one now, if you ruin it, and its not in the budget for the rest. I also think I would feel uncomfortable doing any serious driving. Just my thoughts...

07-25-2010, 06:19 PM	#3
Ron in Quincy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Quincy, CA. Posts: 1,708	Re: Another drum and hub question? I , myself wouldn't even considering installing new cast iron drums on hubs like you have. I believe you need to locate some good hubs. The new cast iron drums are designed to be installed on the hubs, then the drum is turned to true the drum to the hub. It sounds like you just ordered new drums and plan on taking care of all the other work associated with making the new drums workable. When Mel gross or Berts does the complete job they install new studs which requires at the minimum a 20 ton press, they true the drum to the hub etc. Only my opinion, Ron

07-25-2010, 06:35 PM	#4
CWPASADENA Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: PASADENA, CA Posts: 1,884	Re: Another drum and hub question? I think I would shop around and see if you can find some good used Hubs. I think there are plenty of them out there with worn out drums that you can buy for little of nothing. I would try looking in the For Sale Stuff on the Barn and also even posting an ad for some good used hubs and see what happens. The Model A studs are non too long as it is and you may not have much left in the way of threads with the thicker drums and also this looks to be a real bad job. Try removing a few studs and see what you have. The hubs may not look so bad when you get all that old weld and the studs out. My opinion, Chris .

07-25-2010, 06:45 PM	#6
Purdy Swoft Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alabama Posts: 8,099	Re: Another drum and hub question? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Robert, I'm not telling you what to do. I have run lots of model A's with welded studs and have never had a problem. The main problem with welded lug bolts is the rear hubs will rub the emergency brakes if the welds are not pretty flat. If the hubs were not giving any problem with the emergency brakes, if it was mine and I needed to use them I wouldn't grind them at all. Too much grinding can weaken the welds. I can't see what would be unsafe. If the weld fails you will have a lug nut that spins when you try to remove it and you will need to remove the wheel and hub as a unit and re weld. Nobody will see the welds or ever know the difference. Otherwise get ready to spend quite a bit more money, with no noticable improvement. This is just common sense to me and I am sure that lots of others have done the same, I know that I have seen lots of welded lug bolts over the past 50 years of model A ing. Good luck.

07-25-2010, 08:24 PM	#7
Model T Monte Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Vici,Okla. Posts: 256	Re: Another drum and hub question? I have a set just like that out in the garage that I plan on useing on one of my cars. I see no danger in those. Monte

07-25-2010, 10:05 PM	#8
DeBordEngineMan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Church Hill TN Posts: 190	Re: Another drum and hub question? Thanks guys for all the great advice I think that I will just let this post ride a little to see if there are anymore that would like to comment on this topic all comments and advice are welcomed from the newbie! I like to read a lot of different opinions before I start on a new project, Thanks Robert DeBord

07-25-2010, 10:48 PM	#9
Jim Parker Toronto Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,289	Re: Another drum and hub question? I've seen some that way, and they put new cast iron drums on the hubs with the welded studs. Two thousand miles later, the holes in the drum were worn egg shaped from the drum moving on the hub. I agree with Steve about the welding job. The good news is that welds like that can be ground off easily because they don't have any penetration and probably did not hurt the hub. While you have the front hubs off, check to see that they are not cracked down in center of the hub. Then have them trued up on a lathe. Make sure first that the races are tight in the hub. If loose, discard them! On the rears, clean them up also and check that the inner race of the is no larger than 3.1925". If so, discard them too! Have them faced on a lathe as well. Before you get the shoes relined, make sure the pin holes are not excessively worn. The roller pin should be snug in the hole. This is what keeps the shoes in alignment top and bottom. Let us know how you make out, and good luck!!