Retractable 3 point seat belts in a sedan

[Lona]

Forgive me for making this such a long post but the subject is about your safety.

On 3-22-14, I posted a thread titled "Put 3 point retractable seat belts in roadster". That post with photos described how the installation was done in a Model A roadster which would also be applicable to a coup. The following is a description of 3 point installation in a sedan but it is a '31 Chrysler and not a Model A. Hopefully, those wanting to install these belts in their Model A sedans or phaeton can adapt these ideas to their cars and that is the reason for this thread.
As a note, any use of these suggestions is the responsibility of each owner or seatbelt installer.
I installed lap belts in my Chrysler weeks after buying it in 2013 but was concerned every time I drove it. Lap belts alone may keep you in the seat but your upper body will hinge at the waist and your head will hit the steering wheel, the dash or the windshield in a head-on. On a side hit, your head will likely hit the side window, B pillar, or you will be thrown against the opposite side of the car.
My objective was to install a 3 point retractable with the shoulder belt extending back through the space between the rear seat back and cushion with the retractable mechanism attached to a reinforced mounting in the floor behind the rear seat. If there is no room behind the seat in a Model A for the retractor, a standard belt extender can be used so the retractor rests on the top of the bottom seat cushion. In this case, the extender should be short enough to allow the retractor to be tight up against the seat back and not flopping around on the bottom cushion. A floor angle bracket will also be required which is available from any seat belt supplier. I had to bend a standard 90 degree bracket slightly to get the correct angle for the retractor. One of my requirements was that the belt going to the back needed to be detachable so it could be hidden under the rear seats for shows while the front belt could be tucked out of sight under the front seat. An added advantage allows the tail belt to be disconnected for passenger access to the rear and reconnected once they are seated.
Unfortunately, I could not find a suitable belt anywhere on the internet and suspect they are not made for passenger cars. I toyed with cutting a standard retractable 3 point belt and stitching in a regular buckle and male end to make the belt detachable but chose not to. First, I did not find any buckles for sale and also found that you apparently need a federal certification to legally stitch any seat belts. Using a local sail maker to stitch up the modified belt would have been easy but of unknown strength and it would have been illegal, putting me and the sail shop in a questionable liability situation.

Looking to the racing belt people, I found a 3 point harness from Corbeau. Schroth also makes one but they are more expensive. The belt is really a two belt harness with a single tail belt to the retractor. The tail is detachable directly behind the driver's head where the two shoulder belts join the tail.

Now, I expect to see a rash of posts criticizing this setup but let me explain. First, there will be questions about the angle of the tail belt coming from the shoulder to the rear seat cushion. Corbeau's and other website mounting instructions show the tail belt installed in this manner and also shows the anchoring point not directly in line with the driver but attached to the outboard factory seat belt mounting behind the rear seat at the side of the car. This would be the C pillar in a modern car. I talked to Corbeau about my planned installation and was advised the angle would be fine so long as it did nor exceed 45 degrees from the horizontal. Installing the retractor directly behind the front seat would be a 90 degree installation and taboo as that would cause shoulder and spine injury in a crash. Mine ended up about 26 degrees which is ok. The smaller Model A sedans might have a steeper angle but still should be under the 45 degree recommendation.

Second, these racing belts are listed by the makers as not suitable for street use and they cite, likely for legal reasons, that this harness will keep you rigid in the seat. They are meant to be used with roll bars, cages and helmets. In the event of a rollover, they feel stock 3 point belts will allow the occupant to duck down and not be crushed by a collapsing roof where the harness will keep your head upright and in place. My own personal opinion is that I would rather my body be held firmly in place and not free to move. Second, in a rollover, I think the downward force on your body when the car ends up on its roof would make it impossible to duck anyway. There are no air bags, collapsible steering columns, padded dashes or other safety features in our cars. Therefore, I would rather be firmly held in place in an accident but still have the freedom with the retractor to move comfortably while driving and not be plastered to the seat back for the duration of my ride. The Corbeau retractor is made so it can be set in a locked position if the driver wishes. These are decisions you will need to make for yourself.

Third, I have read some posts on other forums that harnesses may be illegal in some states, perhaps for the rollover reasons mentioned. Others feel they are illegal because they are harder for EMS folks to unfasten them. The Corbeau belts have buckles just like stock ones so that should not be a problem. I don't believe Virginia has any such restrictions, and in fact, has no inspection requirements for antique vehicles. Checking your own state laws would be advisable before starting any belt installations.

Fourth, no seat belt arrangement or installation is absolutely safe. This fact has been pointed out by others on the forum, some of whom apparently don't have any belts at all on their cars for this reason. Common sense should tell us that lap belts are better than nothing and that lap belts with shoulder restraints are better than laps alone. And of course, roll bars with fixed harnesses and helmets with restraints are better yet but just how complex do you want to go in an antique vehicle?
And last, racing belts are ugly and commercial looking with their lettering. I wish I could have found a plain set that looked at home in a vintage car but I opted for safety rather than looks. They are only used when driving and tucked out of sight for shows. Let me know if anyone finds a standard 3 point belt with a factory made detachable shoulder belt and I'd likely change mine.

Please feel free to comment or PM me if you have any questions or input.

Glen

[Lona]

Additional seat belt photos

[Lona]

Sorry, won't let me upload more than one at a time. Here's one more

[Lona]

And last one. Photos are probably too large

[Synchro909]

Thanks for that. It is similar to one of my ideas but with the belt going to the back seat being detachable. I like it.
Once I get my current project out of the way, I intend getting serious about putting belts in my As.

[mhsprecher]

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Thanks, Glen. We have corresponded about this issue and I appreciate your sharing your approach. That's a beautiful interior in your Chrysler, too.

[Mike]

I would like to see more pics of the 31 Chrysler !!!!!!!!!!

mike

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

I guess to each his own, ...but based on my knowledge of that bodystyle, I think that restraint system gives a lot of false security to the occupants.

Then I guess it begs the question, is that restraint system enough?? Why not also install safety air bags, a protective roll-over structure, anti-lock brakes, and other safety systems?

[Lona]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I guess to each his own, ...but based on my knowledge of that bodystyle, I think that restraint system gives a lot of false security to the occupants.

Then I guess it begs the question, is that restraint system enough?? Why not also install safety air bags, a protective roll-over structure, anti-lock brakes, and other safety systems?

Brent,
No false sense of security but a realization that what I have installed is two steps above nothing at all. Would not having air bags, roll-over structures and the latest safety equipment available also give a false sense of security? As said, no system is totally safe and mine isn't either.

Too many barners seem to feel having nothing at all is ok because they are careful and defensive drivers. Problem is we can't control the other guy. Also, many of us are in the 60 to 80 age range and our driving skills are not what they once were.

My reason for posting was to impart some ideas to those who have wanted to install retractable 3 point belts in their sedans but don't know how. Each owner has to decide for him/herself what level of safety they want in their cars.
Glen

[Lona]

Originally Posted by Mike

I would like to see more pics of the 31 Chrysler !!!!!!!!!!

mike

Mike,
Since not strictly Model A related, I tried to PM you some photos but you're not listed on the PM index. Give me a way to PM you or email & I will send you some pics
Glen

[Synchro909]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

I guess to each his own, ...but based on my knowledge of that bodystyle, I think that restraint system gives a lot of false security to the occupants.

Then I guess it begs the question, is that restraint system enough?? Why not also install safety air bags, a protective roll-over structure, anti-lock brakes, and other safety systems?

Brent, The solution is easy. Go into politics and you will be a bag of (Hot) air.