The 60-A, B, C Fordor Sedans

[Steve Plucker]

Does anyone know the history of production periods concerning these three body types?

They started in 1928 with the 60-A (Brown leather top), then the 60-B (Black leather top) came about followed by the 60-C (steel back) in 1929.

My question is this, were all three body styles offered in 1929 or did Ford drop the 60-A from the line in 1929 thus only having the 60-B and 60-C in production?

When the 170-A was introduced in July of 1929 (or there abouts)...did Ford drop the 60-B and C or were all three (or four if the 60-A was still being produced) body styles available throughout 1929?

What body style(s) replaced the 60-A, B, C and 170-A in 1930?

Thanks.

Pluck

[Russ]

Steve,

I've been collecting data on 60-A's, B's, & C's off-and-on for about 13 years now and I've wondered about this question myself. According to p.80 of The Ford Model A as Henry Built It (DeAngelis, Francis, Henry), the 60-A was produced in both 1928 & 1929.

The goal of my project is to establish the production quantities and dates for the 60-A, -B, & -C by cross referencing the serial numbers on the Briggs body tags with the original firewall date and engine/frame number.

Unfortunately, the 60-A's and B's shared the same prefix of 190 on the Briggs body tag, so it's hard to tell when they switched from the A to the B. Furthermore, the Briggs serial numbers are continuous throughout A & B production (they did not go back to zero with the start of the 60-B). I would like to know if there is a definitive way to physically tell an A from a B other than the top material color, which cannot typically be relied upon since it can be changed so easily over the life of a car. The 60-C, on the other hand, had the unique Briggs body number prefix of "195" for which the serialization started again from zero.

The earliest A in my database is 190-22, with a firewall date of 5/10/1928. The latest A in my database has a firewall date of 12/8/1928 and a frame/engine number dating to 12/11/28. Unfortunately, the Briggs tag was missing on this car, but another late 60-A with a firewall date of 11/16/28 has a Briggs body number of 190-68853.

The earliest 60-B in my database is 190-99775 with a firewall date of 1/4/1929 (it's possible this could actually be a 60-A). The latest 60-B I have on record is 190-151957 with a firewall date of 4/8/1929.

The earliest 60-C in my database is 195-812 with a firewall date of 2/12/1929. The latest 60-C in my database is 195-17608 with a firewall date of 7/17/1929. This shows that production of the 60-B and 60-C did overlap.

Along the way, I have also stumbled upon a few 170-A's. These cars used a prefix of "197". The earliest car has a firewall date of 8/7/29 (no other numbers) and the latest has a Briggs body number of 197-6337 with a frame/engine number dating to 10/10/1929. It seems less likely that production of the 60-C and 170-A overlapped.

The above data provides pretty good brackets on the dates and quantities, but I would like to gather a lot more data, especially on these cars. There are still a lot of them out there that can fill in some of the blanks.

[jm29henry]

Steve,Russ, I don't know if this will help I own a 60 B that was built on 12-8 1928 I believe that this is the way that it came from the factory .Before I purchased the car I contacted Rodger Kaufman he informed me that what I had was a 60 B built in 1928 and titled 1929. The most interesting fact to me is from Your data base is the 60 A with the same build date as mine.If there is anything I can do to help with collecting of data such as pictures Please let me know.
Last week there was a new forum started on ford barn for owners of the Briggs 60A&60B I posted a thred on when was yours built a few member of this group posted there's and there are a few post most seem to be 60 A so far and build dates are very interesting .i hope this help Joe

[Steve Plucker]

Guys,

Thanks to Joe and Russ above for your thoughts.

This could be a great learning informational thread...If you have an original 60-A,B, or C...Please chime in so we all can benifit the history of this body style.

Thanks.

Pluck

[juke joint johnny]

Where was the body number stamped on the 60 B Sedans?

[Colby Kid]

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Hi, I have a '28, built in June of '28, with a body # of 190-14561, engine # 221034.
Good luck

[Russ]

Colby Kid, thanks for the info. Do you have a date stamped on your firewall? Also, does your car have a cowl vent? The 60-A's I have data for seem to have cowl vents through at least August of 1928.

[Russ]

The body number should be stamped on the wooden frame rail to the right of the front passenger's legs (see photos).

The early tags (60-A's and early 60-B's) were long and skinny and had large letters. The later tags were rectangular with "Body Number" on top and "Briggs Mfg. Co., Detroit Mich." on the bottom - the number was stamped in the middle.

NOTE: they may also be on the side of the wooden rail, or possibly even underneath. Look for nail holes in the location shown in the photos. If you don't see evidence of a removed tag, get a mirror and look around on the wooden members.

[juke joint johnny]

Thanks Russ

I will have a look and let you know what I find .My 60 B is a May 29 car

[Beauford]

Russ, I have a 1928 60A but a different year frame. I will look at firewall and the plate you have pictured when I get home this morning.

[Beauford]

PS: No vent on mine,

[Beauford]

12-17-28 no plate on wood. Could be under as I see nails. The car is in pieces so I will have to make room to get a better vantage point this week.

[juke joint johnny]

No tags or nail holes on mine in that area will have a look with mirror tomorrow.

Firewall date 5- 4 -29

John Cochran

[Colby Kid]

Yes, I have the cowl vent, and an overdrive. I don't know where the stamping is on the firewall.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by Colby Kid

Yes, I have the cowl vent, and an overdrive. I don't know where the stamping is on the firewall.

Straight up over the steering column and just above the gas tank seam where the tank flange and firewall bolt together. If someone repainted the area, it might have covered the numbers with thick paint.

[Russ]

Thanks for all the great information guys - please keep it coming. I'm starting to paint a good picture of 60-A, -B, & -C production.

The firewall date is on the lower driver's side of the firewall (front of gas tank). See attached picture. It helps to turn the lights off and shine a flashlight at a very shallow angle to the sheet metal.

[jm29henry]

Russ how many 1929 60 B do you know of built in dec of 1928 or even early?

[Russ]

jm28henry,

I've only come across one 60-B so far that was made in '28 (12/28/28). I am relying on the owners claim that it is a 60-B. I am interested in finding more '28 60-B's that can be substantiated by the color of their original black top, instead of the brown used on the 60-A.

[juke joint johnny]

No Luck finding the body number on my 60 B even with the mirror, I will keep looking.

I recently imported this car from Nebraska.There are only a few Leather backs in the UK Model A club, all of them imports from somewhere else.

Unfortunately part of the roof material blew off when it was being transported, The remains of the original material looks like the long short grain , but much flatter than what you can buy now. The Model A Ford as Henry built it book says Pebble grain was used a course vinyl I believe,
What do people recommend to replace it? I was thinking the vinyl roof kit from Classtique also would the visor be covered or painted?

This car still has the original brown paint on it though not perfect.
It has been been off the road since 1974 . Upholstery moused!!

I have dropped the oil pan on it to clean out the muck & sludge
It had an old replacement water pump that was frozen solid!
No place for Grease fittings on it

John Cochran

[Colby Kid]

Thanks for the info Russ, but my entire firewall has a heavy textured paint (probably from a significant restoration in the early '90s), and I cannot read anything.
Thanks, Jim

[pj's junkers]

I have a 60-A in pieces with the vent door. Frame stamped 7-18-1928. Date on upper firewall is 6-26-28. No body number. Then I have what I was calling a 29 60-B. However reading here I now believe it to be a 60-A. Gas tank date 12-10-28, Body number 190-85519 and is on a thin strip with 3 tacks holding it on of what appears to copper. The motor is not correct as it is a 1930 and the car is intact so the frame number is unknown. This car was aquired by my uncle in about 1965 and titled as a 29. Aren't all the interesting facts about A's intriguing. You learn something all the time. Philip

[Todd Sgamba]

I have a 1929 60A. The body number on the tag is A608013. It was built on April 17, 1929. I have had this car since 1976. I got it from my uncle, who bought it from the original owner in 1941.It had dealer installed dual side mounts and cowl lights, all purchased by the original owner. It still has the original interior. the top has been removed because of extensive rust damage. When I got this car from my uncle, it had the same chocolate brown top on it that was on it when he bought it in 1941. I've had 1 person tell me that the top must have been replaced before 1941, because the 60A wasn't still available in April 1929. Nobody I've talked to knows when the 60A was discontinued. When I removed the top material for restoration, it was very brittle but it's always definitely been brown. It also had the correct seams and hardware and the metal rain strips down the sides appear to have never been removed. Does anyone know if indeed the 60A was still produced in April 1929? Thanks, Todd

[asapguy]

Interesting thread. It got my curiosity up so I went and checked my 60B, at least I thought it was a B & not an A. The car only has approx. 65K miles. The firewall date is 1-12-29. The # on Briggs tag on the pass. side floor 190 - 103272.
As long as there are some 60-A-B owners reading this. I have a question about the rear seam on the top. My top had been replaced at some point & the seam was carried over to the back of the drip moldings on both sides. I have seen a few leatherbacks that were this way. Two are pictured in the "Henry's Lady" book. Most just have the seam across the back and extend about 10" around to the side. I did not extend mine all the way to the trip molding which to me looks much better.

[chuckstinn]

My 60A has body tag # 190-43392
Engine # is A390XXX
Firewall date stamp is 9-25-28
No vent
Car is my avatar

[Russ]

Todd, I've been doing research on these cars and I haven't come across a 60-A beyond Jan. '29. Where did the April 17, 1929 date come from? The firewall on the gas tank? Maybe the tank was replaced during the life of the car(?).

The number you list as a body number (A608013) does not match the Briggs serial number format, but it does match a Model A frame/engine number from November 1928. The Briggs body number would be on a tag nailed to the wood near the front passengers sill plate and would have the format 190-XXXX. A lot of people look right past it and don't even notice it.

Russ

[Todd Sgamba]

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Originally Posted by asapguy

Interesting thread. It got my curiosity up so I went and checked my 60B, at least I thought it was a B & not an A. The car only has approx. 65K miles. The firewall date is 1-12-29. The # on Briggs tag on the pass. side floor 190 - 103272.
As long as there are some 60-A-B owners reading this. I have a question about the rear seam on the top. My top had been replaced at some point & the seam was carried over to the back of the drip moldings on both sides. I have seen a few leatherbacks that were this way. Two are pictured in the "Henry's Lady" book. Most just have the seam across the back and extend about 10" around to the side. I did not extend mine all the way to the trip molding which to me looks much better.

Throughout the years, I have been in contact with about a half a dozen 60A and B owners who have the original tops or replaced the original tops on their cars. All of them had the main seam with welting that only went across the back top edge of the body. It did not continue around the sides. Todd

[Todd Sgamba]

Originally Posted by Russ

Todd, I've been doing research on these cars and I haven't come across a 60-A beyond Jan. '29. Where did the April 17, 1929 date come from? The firewall on the gas tank? Maybe the tank was replaced during the life of the car(?).

The number you list as a body number (A608013) does not match the Briggs serial number format, but it does match a Model A frame/engine number from November 1928. The Briggs body number would be on a tag nailed to the wood near the front passengers sill plate and would have the format 190-XXXX. A lot of people look right past it and don't even notice it.

Russ

Hi Russ - That's an excellent group of questions. There are two screw or nail sized holes on the passenger side wood sill. I'm assuming that's where the original ID tag was. I've read a lot about this over the years and don't know why it was removed. when I got the car in '76, there was a body # tag attached to the firewall with the current ID#. Unfortunately, my uncle passed away many years ago, before I was researching this, so, I can't ask him. To the best of my knowledge, the tank is original. The engine (which is original) and the frame #'s match. They are A1410947. I went on the MARC website and one of the links showed date of manufacture pretty much dead on with the gas tank date. I don't know if, why, or when this ID number was assigned to the car. I know the firewall is not the correct place for the tag anyway. I'm now in the process of a complete restoration of the car. body is off. Found lots of hidden treasures but no original body tag. =( THANKS! Todd

[100IH]

Russ and Steve, I have seen an early 60-A with the cowl vent that had a completely different interior dash rail and wood cross piece under the rail. It has been sold and is gone so I have no pictures or numbers. Never saw this mentioned in any literature. Are there others?

[asapguy]

The left picture shoes the top on my car when orig. purchased back in 08. The other picture show the way it looks now after I replaced it in 2012 and the seam does not extend around to the molding. I have seen several with the seams that extend on the sides to the drip molding. Including several pictures in the Henry's Lady book published in the early 70's.

[jm29henry]

From what I was told your second picture is correct .Many top installers have trouble laying the top and cut it there so they can get it to lay flat and add the bead to hide there cut look good but not correct mine was done in 1971 wrong just like your picture on the left my top does not leak and is still in good shape so I will leave mine as is but I wish it was correct. I don't know how to post a pic on a thred but if you go threw my profile my car has pictures there

[Tom Wesenberg]

The second picture does look much better.
Elizabeth from Classtique Upholstery did a demonstration for our club on installing one of these tops.
She did a beautiful job, and she stitched it the correct way, as your second picture shows.

[asapguy]

The 2nd picture is the way I did the top myself when I did it back in 2012. I helped a friend do a 60A with the correct brown top several yrs ago. His wood was not good which made the job difficult (tacks wouldn't hold). I heard the factory that provided the brown material burned a few yrs. ago & L-B was unable to get it. Another friend had to order black top & spray it brown. A fellow barner has contacted me from R. Is. and wanted some directions in installing his top on a 60A. He said he got a brown top from Classtique. I sent him lots of pictures.

[supergnat]

Russ and Steve,
My 28 Oct 28 leatherback still has the original interior, top and engine. I think I have already provided my data to Russ and Steve in the past. The car color is not original and I think the top was painted black when the car color was changed. I am the fourth owner and the car has has always been titled in NJ.. I have the original bill of sale which matches the engine number. I also added a fresh coat of black paint to the top to dress it up a little. It is obvoiusly not a high points car and never will be as long as I own it. The following link is from one of me Barn albums showing photos ot the top. I also have an ablum of interior photos. Let me know if there is anything else you would like to know or see and I'll see what I can do to accomodate your request. Http://www.fordbarn.com/forum/album.php?albumid=2055. Supergnat

[Lightman7]

Question: I'm newly aware of Fordors, as I have the opportunity to buy my grandfathers (I have drop tops - cabriolet, phaeton, etc.) Is there somewhere that lists the differences between the 60A and 60B? The car is unrestored and has a Jan 29 engine number.

[rotorwrench]

It's probably a 60A if it has characteristics or dating before February of 1929. Here is a link to Vince's site. It shows the dates and some overlap on the blind back types.
https://www.fordgarage.com/pages/US2831bodystyles.htm

[Ayers1]

I have a 28 built 10/8/28. It's original colors were a seal brown/rose beige combination so I assume that the original top was brown.

[Russ]

The 60-A and 60-B were nearly identical except for production changes common to all body styles. The obvious difference is that the 60-A had a seal brown top while the 60-B had a black top, but the tops have been replaced on many of the surviving cars. From owner data and information, it appears that the switch from 60-A to 60-B occurred very near to new year (1929).

[JC60B]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

It's probably a 60A if it has characteristics or dating before February of 1929. Here is a link to Vince's site. It shows the dates and some overlap on the blind back types.
https://www.fordgarage.com/pages/US2831bodystyles.htm

I have a Canadian car built on February 13 1929. Did Canadian cars switch over to 60B the same time as US? This Ford garage site mentions New Zealand cars as 60A in February but no mention of Canadian cars. My car’s body plate was missing and the top basically gone. It does have some’28 stuff on it and I was told it probably came that way being built in February. Well I built it as a 60B. I think black top looks better with the dark blue anyway.

[supergnat]

Lightman 7 Check the link in my response #33 to see photos of my Oct 1928 60A. Note that the colors are not original but most of the other things are. Be sure to post photos when you have a chance

[rotorwrench]

Ford of Canada had a history of differences over the early years so nothing surprises me. Canada supplied a good portion of the Commonwealth countries but what I am unsure of is if Briggs made their bodies. They made all those 60 series bodies and shipped them to all the US branch plants as well as the Rouge. Shipping them across the Detroit River is not a very long trip.

[JC60B]

Originally Posted by rotorwrench

Ford of Canada had a history of differences over the early years so nothing surprises me. Canada supplied a good portion of the Commonwealth countries but what I am unsure of is if Briggs made their bodies. They made all those 60 series bodies and shipped them to all the US branch plants as well as the Rouge. Shipping them across the Detroit River is not a very long trip.

The body is put together with Robertson screws so if not built in Canada for sure assembled in Canada.

[Todd Sgamba]

I found the actual Briggs tag and the number is 190-152007. The engine and frame numbers match. They are : A1410947, which according to the MARC website is April 19, 1929. My gas tank is dated 4-17-29. I have NO idea where the A608013 came from on my pink slip. Thanks, Todd

[Lightman7]

I realize I never posted pics. Yes the car is pink (exterior house paint over the original done by the family my grandfather sold it to) but you can see the original paint on the firewall and door jambs/dash. It is unrestored but well used over the years first as a daily commute car by my grandfather for over 20 years(!) then as a recreational vehicle and novelty by the neighbor he sold it to down the street. (I bought it back of the son of the neighbor after it sat for 30 years). It has (thankfully) always been garaged, although in PA so its have humid summers. I'm pretty sure its a B from the interior, but it is early as it still has the grip e-brake lever. The aftermarket dash ash tray is interesting (Grampy smoked all his life).

I haven't done anything to the car yet (I have three others that have my attention at the moment), and I'm going to pull the engine and open it up to make sure it looks OK. From the grime build up on the bottom of the engine I am assuming the babbits haven't been checked in forever. I have a new Classtique top for it, and will get a new interior once I have verified all the body wood (so far so good!),

Here are a few pics from both where it was stored for 30 years and at my house:

My Granfather's 60B

[ddelproop]

Just an FYI to the thread.

I have a Briggs 60C 195-283
The engine is not original and no date on firewall but the firewall is smooth and well painted.

The car is a body off restoration.

A previous owner must have thought the car was built in 1928 as I have a photo copy of the 1928 license plate. I do not know if the plat is original.

The last three numbers seem to imply built before early February 29 based on collected information in this thread.

[mtnichols]

I am pretty sure I have a 60-B because:
1. I found black pieces of rotted top:
2. VIN A732913 frame and engine
3. Firewall stamped 12-7-28
4. No cowl vents
5. Seal Brown/Rose Beige

Actually had multi-disc clutch

Anything else you want to know for your database?

I am looking for original interior colors.

[rotorwrench]

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This is an old thread. Some of the original posters don't frequent the forum much anymore, including the original poster, and at least one is no longer with us. I would suggest starting a new thread if questions need answers.
To post #45: Your car is consistent with a late 28 in your description. The single disk clutch was introduced in November of 1928 but Ford used all assemblies before installing new design items. There would have been intermixing due to the amount of assembly plants in that era.