The Ford Barn

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 05:55 AM

So, before I pulled the radiator, I drained the fresh anti-freeze I had put in the car and if you've been following my overheating saga, I had flushed the system with vinegar about two weeks ago only to find out the rad was shot and finished taking off the radiator for replacement. The bucket that caught the drained coolant sat for a few days and last night I drained it off into a sealed container. What looks like engine oil had settled to the bottom of the bucket. It felt like oil, looked like the fresh oil I had changed out when I got the car last month and smelled like fresh oil. Just a thin coating mind you, but I was not happy with what I saw. I suspect a blown head gasket and hopefully not something worse. The strange thing was that there was no coolant in the engine oil or at least none was showing on the dip stick. It looked clean and the nice honey color of fresh oil. Any thoughts to where I go from here? If I have to I'll pull the head and I have to say, I have not attempted that before although I plan on making sure I use nut busting penetrating oil (liquid wench) or something similar on the head bolts a few days before attempting the removal and getting the paint of the nuts and bolts so the oil can get to the studs. I know I have to take the distributor off first. I have Les Andrew's book to help me with the process which I'm assuming will be the advice here. Bummer.....

Tom Wesenberg · 10-03-2018, 06:45 AM

That's just rusty scum from someone in the past using plain water, which created rust in the system. I see it all the time. It always settles to the bottom, while any oil would float on top. Paper towels will remove the oil, and careful slow pouring will keep the scum on the bottom, to be thrown away.

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Wesenberg

That's just rusty scum from someone in the past using plain water, which created rust in the system. I see it all the time. It always settles to the bottom, while any oil would float on top. Paper towels will remove the oil, and careful slow pouring will keep the scum on the bottom, to be thrown away.

I hope so.......so if it was engine oil it would float to the top of the 50/50 mix? This was clearly on the bottom clinging to the surface.

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-03-2018, 07:05 AM

From Napa Online, answer is in the last line.

http://knowhow.napaonline.com/antifr...not-panicking/

"Oil is essential to keeping your engine running. It provides proper lubricant to reduce friction and wear and, to a lesser extent, it helps remove heat. Coolant is also meant to prevent overheating, but not in the same way, and not in the same system. Engine oil is thick to provide a good coat, coolant is thin to maximize flow and dissipate heat. Oil is chemically manufactured to “play well” with internal engine parts, the chemicals in antifreeze make it naturally harsh on internal engine components such as bearings, causing wear and damage over time if repeatedly exposed. Additionally, the physical properties of oil cause it to separate and float on top of water/coolant, so it’s easiest to deal with if you catch the mistake very early."

WHN · 10-03-2018, 07:10 AM

I would not be to quick to remove the head.

I would refill your new radiator with just water and rust inhibitor. Than drive your car around.

If you have a problem, the oil will be floating on top of the water when you drain coolant.

Just water, if it does get into your oil, will not damage your bearings. Anti freeze in oil could cause a bearing problem.

If you live in Ithaca New York? Drain your radiator before you put car away. We lived in Homer for 25 years, never used anti freeze. Enjoy.

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 07:19 AM

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Guys, I have to say it sure looked like fresh oil, felt like fresh oil. I had flushed the engine a few times with vinegar, Simple Green, Thermocare, then a few doses of fresh water before adding the last 50/50 mix. Then I drove the car only to have it overheat again after a mile or so at 40 mph. At that point I assumed it was the radiator and pulled it. Like I said, last night I got around to emptying the 50/50 green coolant from one of those yellow flat buckets that you drain coolant into, into another container and that is when I saw this oil or what sure looked like it, coating the bottom of the yellow catchall. I felt it and looked at it carefully and it had the consistency of engine oil and was the same honey color as the Rotella engine oil I put in the block. I understand that if it is oil, it should have floated to the surface and not settled out in the bottom below the 50/50 but It is concerning me as I had thought I had eradicated all the crap/crud from the water jacket with the multiple flushes with water and the Vinegar, the Simple Green and the Thermocare. When I did a last flush with plain hot water, no such crud or oily substance was present in the water......until I drained the 50/50 before pulling the radiator.

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-03-2018, 07:29 AM

Forgot to add to previous reply. Do not panic yet and assume the worst. My opinion is to not pull the head yet. Install the new radiator, run the car and drain the coolant frequently and inspect it. I believe you are installing a coolant filter, inspect that frequently. If nothing in the coolant, put the same coolant back in. When you drain a radiator/block, there can still be few ounces of the flush (vinegar, etc.) left in the block/radiator, could be that is what you are seeing. The containers you are using to collect the coolant may have had some contamination present, or even leached out of the container, etc. Also mentioned above, even though you have flushed extensively, the block/radiator still most likely still has junk in in it.

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Forgot to add to previous reply. Do not panic yet and assume the worst. My opinion is to not pull the head yet. Install the new radiator, run the car and drain the coolant frequently and inspect it. I believe you are installing a coolant filter, inspect that frequently. If nothing in the coolant, put the same coolant back in. When you drain a radiator/block, there can still be few ounces of the flush (vinegar, etc.) left in the block/radiator, could be that is what you are seeing. The containers you are using to collect the coolant may have had some contamination present, or even leached out of the container, etc. Also mentioned above, even though you have flushed extensively, the block/radiator still most likely still has junk in in it.

I'm hoping so. I used clean containers so that isn't where this oily residue came from. After I install the new rad, set the timing and have flushed the block, if it still overheats, should I suspect the head gasket then?

WHN · 10-03-2018, 07:39 AM

I have been fooling around with these cars for almost 60 years.

Not saying your wrong, but I have never seen what you are explaining to be seeing.

My first advice to any new Model A owner is don’t just start taking things apart or jumping to conclusions. These are “old” simple cars. There are a lot of them out there. Replacing your radiator just removed one more potential problem from that list.

Your cars cooling system mostlikely has many years of build up from the water pump lubricant and other things inside it.

Oil floats on water, that’s a given. Now we need to work back from there.

Leakless water pump would also remove the need to grease your pump. New pump along with new radiator and a clean block. There really is not much else involved.

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WHN

I have been fooling around with these cars for almost 60 years.

Not saying your wrong, but I have never seen what you are explaining to be seeing.

My first advice to any new Model A owner is don’t just start taking things apart or jumping to conclusions. These are “old” simple cars. There are a lot of them out there. Replacing your radiator just removed one more potential problem from that list.

Your cars cooling system mostlikely has many years of build up from the water pump lubricant and other things inside it.

Oil floats on water, that’s a given. Now we need to work back from there.

Leakless water pump would also remove the need to grease your pump. New pump along with new radiator and a clean block. There really is not much else involved.

I’m going to put the new radiator in first, which I ordered from Snyder’s but they are waiting for a shipment, so I don’t have it yet. I’ve set the timing and I doubt any old pump grease is what I’m seeing as I replaced the pump and lubed it before I installed it.

I’ll run straight water as a test to see if it overheats again and also to look at the fluid for signs of oil. I’ve flushed the system quite a few times now and it should be clean so I’m not sure where this oily stuff (which looks like clean motor oil) is coming from. I hope it’s not a serious block problem. Pulling the head will be the last resort.

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-03-2018, 07:50 AM

Hi Bigd1101.

Did not see the additional info at 7:19 when I responded above. Still would not pull head yet.

Have you run a compression test? Might indicate a problem if you have one. Nice thing is you can do it with the radiator off.

I think the reason we mostly do not think you should yet pull the head is that oil in the coolant is not a common issue. Typically it is caused by over-greasing water pumps which are not of the leakless type. Oil seepage should not cause damage to the head/block surfaces/valves/etc. like water and anti freeze can.

Oil in the coolant is not as bad as coolant in the oil, where the coolant can cause bearing and other failures. If oil gets in the coolant the oil can clog radiators, but typically can be flushed out with Simple Green/dawn/Arm and Hammer Washing Soda/etc. So it is most likely not a destructive issue at this time.

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 07:51 AM

Oh, and I did put more Thermocare in the water jacket last night (minus the radiator which has not come yet) and will let it sit for a few days. I'll do a compression test if I can get a friend to help out and if he has the right gear. I saw a video where a guy just put his hand over the hole and felt for air....LOL! Old timer stuff for sure. He did find zero comp in the last two cylinders. Blown head gasket for sure

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WHN

I would not be to quick to remove the head.

I would refill your new radiator with just water and rust inhibitor. Than drive your car around.

If you have a problem, the oil will be floating on top of the water when you drain coolant.

Just water, if it does get into your oil, will not damage your bearings. Anti freeze in oil could cause a bearing problem.

If you live in Ithaca New York? Drain your radiator before you put car away. We lived in Homer for 25 years, never used anti freeze. Enjoy.

So you must have been to the Little York show a few times then? I loved that show. I'll install the new radiator before pulling the head and try the water trick but as you know, time is getting short here and I don't have a heated garage.

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-03-2018, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd1101

Oh, and I did put more Thermocare in the water jacket last night (minus the radiator which has not come yet) and will let it sit for a few days. I'll do a compression test if I can get a friend to help out and if he has the right gear. I saw a video where a guy just put his hand over the hole and felt for air....LOL! Old timer stuff for sure. He did find zero comp in the last two cylinders. Blown head gasket for sure

Make sure ahead of time you have the correct adapter for the Spark Plug hole. Many Compression Testers do not have the correct adapter.

You may have to Order on from a Model A Parts supplier.

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 30 Closed Cab PU

Make sure ahead of time you have the correct adapter for the Spark Plug hole. Many Compression Testers do not have the correct adapter.

You may have to Order on from a Model A Parts supplier.

I did just order a leak detector/engine block tester kit. That should tell me a lot.

WHN · 10-03-2018, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigd1101

So you must have been to the Little York show a few times then? I loved that show. I'll install the new radiator before pulling the head and try the water trick but as you know, time is getting short here and I don't have a heated garage.

Yes, our car has Cortland Antique Auto Club on the license plate bracket.

We have been gone from Central New York for 20 years. Found our 1929 keeper car in a barn in Virgil in the late 70’s.

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WHN

Yes, our car has Cortland Antique Auto Club on the license plate bracket.

We have been gone from Central New York for 20 years. Found our 1929 keeper car in a barn in Virgil in the late 70’s.

I believe they stopped the Little York show a while back. Not 100% sure. It's been about 15 years since I went to any car show with a car or truck and I've had many. I just hope it's not a blown head. I'm sure I can fix that if it comes to it, but I'll find out after I get the car back together again with the new radiator. The timing was off a tad but the radiator was old and corroded and not flowing well, but a blown head gasket would also contribute to overheating, although it only did that after driving at 40 for a few minutes. I could fast idle her for 30 minutes and she stayed at 160-70 in the garage.

WHN · 10-03-2018, 09:09 AM

New radiators make a really big difference.

The Model A radiator is designed to cool the coolant about 20 degrees from the engine output at the top of engine/radiator to the engine input at bottom of radiator.

Factory figures are syphon starts at around 180 degrees output, input at bottom should be around 160 degrees.

No matter what, the new radiator and water pump are going to make a huge difference.

bigd1101 · 10-03-2018, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WHN

New radiators make a really big difference.

The Model A radiator is designed to cool the coolant about 20 degrees from the engine output at the top of engine/radiator to the engine input at bottom of radiator.

Factory figures are syphon starts at around 180 degrees output, input at bottom should be around 160 degrees.

No matter what, the new radiator and water pump are going to make a huge difference.

I agree. I bought a thermo gun to shoot the temp when I get the system back up and do the block test for emissions in the coolant before I resort to pulling the head.

30 Closed Cab PU · 10-03-2018, 09:37 AM

Other places to measure temp is on the head close to spark plugs, on the block on the drivers side slightly below the head, and on the exhaust manifold. All similar type readings should be close to each other with the engine warmed up to operating temperature. You can also use it to measure brake drum housing temps - troubleshoot dragging brakes, possible wheel bearing issues.

Do not be surprised if your temp gun will not read when readings taken close or in the motor bay with the motor running. The A's ignition system sometimes makes the temp guns go haywire.

10-03-2018, 05:55 AM	#1
bigd1101 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Ithaca Posts: 345	engine oil in antifreeze! So, before I pulled the radiator, I drained the fresh anti-freeze I had put in the car and if you've been following my overheating saga, I had flushed the system with vinegar about two weeks ago only to find out the rad was shot and finished taking off the radiator for replacement. The bucket that caught the drained coolant sat for a few days and last night I drained it off into a sealed container. What looks like engine oil had settled to the bottom of the bucket. It felt like oil, looked like the fresh oil I had changed out when I got the car last month and smelled like fresh oil. Just a thin coating mind you, but I was not happy with what I saw. I suspect a blown head gasket and hopefully not something worse. The strange thing was that there was no coolant in the engine oil or at least none was showing on the dip stick. It looked clean and the nice honey color of fresh oil. Any thoughts to where I go from here? If I have to I'll pull the head and I have to say, I have not attempted that before although I plan on making sure I use nut busting penetrating oil (liquid wench) or something similar on the head bolts a few days before attempting the removal and getting the paint of the nuts and bolts so the oil can get to the studs. I know I have to take the distributor off first. I have Les Andrew's book to help me with the process which I'm assuming will be the advice here. Bummer.....

10-03-2018, 06:45 AM	#2
Tom Wesenberg Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Mpls, MN Posts: 27,582	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! That's just rusty scum from someone in the past using plain water, which created rust in the system. I see it all the time. It always settles to the bottom, while any oil would float on top. Paper towels will remove the oil, and careful slow pouring will keep the scum on the bottom, to be thrown away.

10-03-2018, 07:05 AM	#4
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! From Napa Online, answer is in the last line. http://knowhow.napaonline.com/antifr...not-panicking/ "Oil is essential to keeping your engine running. It provides proper lubricant to reduce friction and wear and, to a lesser extent, it helps remove heat. Coolant is also meant to prevent overheating, but not in the same way, and not in the same system. Engine oil is thick to provide a good coat, coolant is thin to maximize flow and dissipate heat. Oil is chemically manufactured to “play well” with internal engine parts, the chemicals in antifreeze make it naturally harsh on internal engine components such as bearings, causing wear and damage over time if repeatedly exposed. Additionally, the physical properties of oil cause it to separate and float on top of water/coolant, so it’s easiest to deal with if you catch the mistake very early."

10-03-2018, 07:10 AM	#5
WHN Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Connecticut Shoreline Posts: 1,833	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! I would not be to quick to remove the head. I would refill your new radiator with just water and rust inhibitor. Than drive your car around. If you have a problem, the oil will be floating on top of the water when you drain coolant. Just water, if it does get into your oil, will not damage your bearings. Anti freeze in oil could cause a bearing problem. If you live in Ithaca New York? Drain your radiator before you put car away. We lived in Homer for 25 years, never used anti freeze. Enjoy.

10-03-2018, 07:19 AM	#6
bigd1101 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Ithaca Posts: 345	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) Guys, I have to say it sure looked like fresh oil, felt like fresh oil. I had flushed the engine a few times with vinegar, Simple Green, Thermocare, then a few doses of fresh water before adding the last 50/50 mix. Then I drove the car only to have it overheat again after a mile or so at 40 mph. At that point I assumed it was the radiator and pulled it. Like I said, last night I got around to emptying the 50/50 green coolant from one of those yellow flat buckets that you drain coolant into, into another container and that is when I saw this oil or what sure looked like it, coating the bottom of the yellow catchall. I felt it and looked at it carefully and it had the consistency of engine oil and was the same honey color as the Rotella engine oil I put in the block. I understand that if it is oil, it should have floated to the surface and not settled out in the bottom below the 50/50 but It is concerning me as I had thought I had eradicated all the crap/crud from the water jacket with the multiple flushes with water and the Vinegar, the Simple Green and the Thermocare. When I did a last flush with plain hot water, no such crud or oily substance was present in the water......until I drained the 50/50 before pulling the radiator.

10-03-2018, 07:29 AM	#7
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! Forgot to add to previous reply. Do not panic yet and assume the worst. My opinion is to not pull the head yet. Install the new radiator, run the car and drain the coolant frequently and inspect it. I believe you are installing a coolant filter, inspect that frequently. If nothing in the coolant, put the same coolant back in. When you drain a radiator/block, there can still be few ounces of the flush (vinegar, etc.) left in the block/radiator, could be that is what you are seeing. The containers you are using to collect the coolant may have had some contamination present, or even leached out of the container, etc. Also mentioned above, even though you have flushed extensively, the block/radiator still most likely still has junk in in it.

10-03-2018, 07:39 AM	#9
WHN Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Connecticut Shoreline Posts: 1,833	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! I have been fooling around with these cars for almost 60 years. Not saying your wrong, but I have never seen what you are explaining to be seeing. My first advice to any new Model A owner is don’t just start taking things apart or jumping to conclusions. These are “old” simple cars. There are a lot of them out there. Replacing your radiator just removed one more potential problem from that list. Your cars cooling system mostlikely has many years of build up from the water pump lubricant and other things inside it. Oil floats on water, that’s a given. Now we need to work back from there. Leakless water pump would also remove the need to grease your pump. New pump along with new radiator and a clean block. There really is not much else involved.

10-03-2018, 07:50 AM	#11
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! Hi Bigd1101. Did not see the additional info at 7:19 when I responded above. Still would not pull head yet. Have you run a compression test? Might indicate a problem if you have one. Nice thing is you can do it with the radiator off. I think the reason we mostly do not think you should yet pull the head is that oil in the coolant is not a common issue. Typically it is caused by over-greasing water pumps which are not of the leakless type. Oil seepage should not cause damage to the head/block surfaces/valves/etc. like water and anti freeze can. Oil in the coolant is not as bad as coolant in the oil, where the coolant can cause bearing and other failures. If oil gets in the coolant the oil can clog radiators, but typically can be flushed out with Simple Green/dawn/Arm and Hammer Washing Soda/etc. So it is most likely not a destructive issue at this time.

10-03-2018, 07:51 AM	#12
bigd1101 Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Location: Ithaca Posts: 345	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! Oh, and I did put more Thermocare in the water jacket last night (minus the radiator which has not come yet) and will let it sit for a few days. I'll do a compression test if I can get a friend to help out and if he has the right gear. I saw a video where a guy just put his hand over the hole and felt for air....LOL! Old timer stuff for sure. He did find zero comp in the last two cylinders. Blown head gasket for sure

10-03-2018, 09:09 AM	#18
WHN Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Connecticut Shoreline Posts: 1,833	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! New radiators make a really big difference. The Model A radiator is designed to cool the coolant about 20 degrees from the engine output at the top of engine/radiator to the engine input at bottom of radiator. Factory figures are syphon starts at around 180 degrees output, input at bottom should be around 160 degrees. No matter what, the new radiator and water pump are going to make a huge difference.

10-03-2018, 09:37 AM	#20
30 Closed Cab PU Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 2,332	Re: engine oil in antifreeze! Other places to measure temp is on the head close to spark plugs, on the block on the drivers side slightly below the head, and on the exhaust manifold. All similar type readings should be close to each other with the engine warmed up to operating temperature. You can also use it to measure brake drum housing temps - troubleshoot dragging brakes, possible wheel bearing issues. Do not be surprised if your temp gun will not read when readings taken close or in the motor bay with the motor running. The A's ignition system sometimes makes the temp guns go haywire.