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01-19-2020, 10:38 AM | #1 |
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Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Normally I adjust the timing on the engine by vacuum: adjust the distributor to get highest vacuum then back off slightly.
Recently, I have been chasing gremlins in the carburetor (over rich), and hesitation when acceleration from a stop. I set the dwell with a meter, rather than feeler gauges. Decided to set the timing with a timing light. The dot on the top of the pulley is 2 degrees BTDC. So to set the initial timing, I was informed that I should start 1/4" to the right of the dot. I reset the timing accordingly and the car ran but not well. When idling it seemed to be starving for air, until I accelerated, then it stumbled and cleared somewhat, but still didn't run well. The carburetor had been marked by the prior owner with a notch matching the hold down bracket. I rest the distributor to batch the marking and the car ran beautifully, with no hesitation on acceleration or issues of starving for air when idling. Now here is the issue. The timing when the car is running well and using the marking on the distributor, is 1 1/2" to the right (advanced) of the dot on the pulley. What would account for this? The # 1 plug wire is at the bottom (6 o'clock) on the distributor. This is is a stock/original distributor. The timing light is a Sears/Penske, from the 70's. Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-19-2020 at 10:48 AM. |
01-19-2020, 10:59 AM | #2 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Try a different timing light.
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01-19-2020, 11:06 AM | #3 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Is that an advance timing light? I have had two of them, and they both went bad shortly after using them. I would follow "JWL"'s advice.
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01-19-2020, 11:34 AM | #4 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Thank you both for the response and recommendations. Would one of the newer timing lights work, or would the ignition system (solid core wires) interfere? Any suggestions as to brands and models?
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01-19-2020, 12:13 PM | #5 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
And of course you have had the vacuum to the vacuum canister disconnected and plugged while setting the timing?
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01-19-2020, 12:20 PM | #6 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
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Can these timing lights be re-collaborated, or is this just a throw a way? |
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01-19-2020, 12:52 PM | #7 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Would it be possible to lift and rotate the distributor gear one tooth so that the hold down nut is more centered on the distributor hold down flange and the rotor is still at 6 o'clock?
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01-19-2020, 12:57 PM | #8 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
If all else fails use the test light method, turn crank to top dead center or the factory timing mark aligned with the crankshaft timing mark which ever you choose ,remove the dist. cap and rotor, connect a test light to the wire on the points turn on the ignition loosen distributor and turn distributor where the test light just comes on ,this is the most accurate way to set the timing with the timing marks on the crankshaft to timing cover , re assemble with the distributor clamp tightened and vacuum advance disconnected, check the reading with your timing light, as we know the Load a Matic Distributor does not use centrifugal advance, the timing marks should read very close if not on the mark due to any small variations caused slack in the timing gears due to gear wear or cam walk (end play) in the camshaft.
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01-19-2020, 03:14 PM | #9 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Be sure that the keyway in the crank pulley isn't damaged, or the key, itself, isn't swedged. If the crank bolt has become loosened at some time, it doesn't take long to do it.
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01-19-2020, 05:07 PM | #10 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
If the timing light doesn't have an adjustment knob on it I DOUBT ITS BAD .only the adjustable advance lights can go bad . I'm still using the same light you have . I bought it new and used it for many years every day .
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01-19-2020, 05:21 PM | #11 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
Thanks. Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-19-2020 at 06:10 PM. |
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01-19-2020, 05:39 PM | #12 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
I did a simple compression check, with my finger over the compression gauge hose, and the top of the stroke aligns with the roter on plug #1. I can give it a try on the 1970 Cougar that belongs to my wife. |
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01-19-2020, 06:48 PM | #13 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Pulley and/or front cover changed sometime in the motors past .....
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01-19-2020, 06:57 PM | #14 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Let me just throw this out for discussion. The pulley was changed, from a two belt to a three belt, when I added an original power steering unit to the car. The unit came off a 53' Ford. I know this because the bracket that mounts on the drivers side frame is different for a Ford to a Mercury, and the unit came with a Ford bracket. Would the pulley be different from a Ford to a Mercury, since the cranks and stroke are different, would that have changed the timing mark on the pulley?
The power steering pulley for a 53' Mercury is part number EAC 6312-A. I don't have Ford book to check. I am not sure what number is on the pulley on the car. Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-19-2020 at 07:04 PM. |
01-19-2020, 07:03 PM | #15 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
You could use the cable tie method to see if the TDC marks align with actual TDC on the motor.
I did a video on it. https://youtu.be/dn446jjCVRg Mart. |
01-19-2020, 07:06 PM | #16 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Just remember, the "dimple" on the pulley is at 2 degrees BTDC.
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01-19-2020, 07:07 PM | #17 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
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01-19-2020, 07:26 PM | #18 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
In my opinion, the speculation will not cease until you establish TDC. It can be done easily using the often mentioned zip tie method. You can troubleshoot from there.
I degreed the pulley on my 8BA. I just looked at it, and 1 1/2" is about 25 degrees. I experimented with various static timing settings with my engine, but not as high as 25 degrees. If the engine starts well, it should run well at that position if no advance is working. I don't see where you have checked the advance to work or the carb to create vacuum. The vacuum can looks new, but we all know how that goes. |
01-19-2020, 07:30 PM | #19 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
You need TDC as a starting point. Guessing at it or getting it close is not really much help.
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01-19-2020, 08:47 PM | #20 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
The car runs great with full power, while claiming 3,100 ft in 13 miles, coming from Denver back home to Conifer. Performance is not an issue here, but rather the location of the TDC bump on the pulley. Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-19-2020 at 09:25 PM. |
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01-19-2020, 09:11 PM | #21 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
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01-19-2020, 09:27 PM | #22 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
You could use the cable tie method to see if the TDC marks align with actual TDC on the motor. I did a video on it. https://youtu.be/dn446jjCVRg Mart. Mart, I will do the "zip tie method" the first thing tomorrow. The nice thing is I already have a pointer. Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-19-2020 at 09:48 PM. |
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01-19-2020, 09:49 PM | #23 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
The diameter of the pulley makes no difference.
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01-20-2020, 12:17 AM | #24 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
And the timing pointer if you have a wide belt front cover with a small belt pulley would be sitting away from the pulley.
That would tell you if you have a mismatch there. And you shouldn´t have a 25 degree difference from that. |
01-20-2020, 06:02 AM | #25 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Just for reference this is the dot to keyway location on '50-'51 crank pulley.
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01-20-2020, 08:28 AM | #26 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
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That would tell you if you have a mismatch there. And you shouldn´t have a 25 degree difference from that.[/QUOT The pointer in my car: |
01-20-2020, 09:08 AM | #27 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
This is the correct pointer setup for your car.
You can see a circle in the casting where the pointer is mounted when used with a widebelt pulley. |
01-20-2020, 09:43 AM | #28 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
Thank you |
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01-20-2020, 09:55 AM | #29 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Do the ziptie test....that will narrow down the investigation !
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01-20-2020, 10:51 AM | #30 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
A couple of questions. What is the dwell you set the points to (should be 27 degrees) and, are you sure you have the timing light connected to the #1 plug wire?
No insult intended, just grabbing at straws! Last edited by V8 Bob; 01-20-2020 at 11:12 AM. |
01-20-2020, 11:48 AM | #31 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Ok folks, I have to admit putting a foreign object into the cylinder, of a perfectly good engine would have not been my first choice. But here it is. Bottom line, the new TDC, is still 1 1/2" off the original pulley marker.
The arrow picture #1 arrow = new TDC, # 2 arrow = is the original TDC pulley button. The zip tie method test "confirmed that the TDC was in fact with the timing mark on the pulley aligned with the timing pin on the front of the timing cover." I apologize for the confusion. Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 02-04-2020 at 11:29 AM. |
01-20-2020, 12:24 PM | #32 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Well, now you know where TDC is and have a point to set the timing from.
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01-20-2020, 12:39 PM | #33 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
After checking with an old time flathead racer in the local club, he feels the pulley has slipped. It is on the key by only 1/4". The only way to confirm this would be to pull the front timing cover and do a visual inspection. Pulling the bolt and washer and looking from the front will not give you the visual required.
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01-20-2020, 01:24 PM | #34 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Just to be sure: you did bring the piston up against the stop, mark the pulley, reverse the rotation back to the stop, mark the pulley, and divide the two marks for TDC?
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01-20-2020, 01:53 PM | #35 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
I have run across dampers that have slipped relative to the keyway. But that is due to a rubber section between the outer and inter parts of the damper. Not sure I see how that could happen on a flathead solid metal pulley.
At this point not sure it matters if you have a true TDC mark to work with, 59a and earlier engines do not have a timing indicator on the pulley and get along fine for timing once TDC is found and marked. |
01-20-2020, 02:24 PM | #36 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
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01-20-2020, 02:25 PM | #37 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Boy, I don't know. If the front pulley was that far from being all the way on, I would expect it would be impossible to keep the fan belts on.
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01-20-2020, 02:26 PM | #38 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Is the advance plate (red arrows) in the distributor up against the stop pins
(green arrows) ?
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01-20-2020, 03:39 PM | #39 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Yes
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01-20-2020, 03:57 PM | #40 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
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01-20-2020, 04:36 PM | #41 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-20-2020 at 04:49 PM. |
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01-20-2020, 05:25 PM | #42 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
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01-20-2020, 08:25 PM | #43 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
Thank you for your insight. |
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01-20-2020, 09:26 PM | #44 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Don't know whether or not Ford made a 6 cylinder pulley in that configuration ... or if it would fit on a V8 crank.
But, the arithmetic is a tease.
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01-21-2020, 05:05 AM | #45 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Merc, just as a sanity check is the discrepancy in the pulley in the right direction to indicate slippage (or some other reason for turning due to load).
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01-21-2020, 09:29 AM | #46 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
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Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-21-2020 at 10:42 AM. |
01-21-2020, 09:43 AM | #47 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
Since the motor turns clockwise (viewed from the front), and assuming the pulley slipped, this could account for the new location of the TDC location on the pulley. Merc Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-21-2020 at 10:41 AM. |
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01-21-2020, 10:46 AM | #48 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Merc, not talking about a Y block ...
Do the ignition math on a Ford 6 cylinder and then V8. Check the initial timing on each. Consider your 28 degree advance (which you just edited out.). Do you see a coincidence? Fun, huh? Probably simply slipped ....
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01-21-2020, 11:16 AM | #49 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
I am thinking that I might be able to pull the bolt and washer from the front of the crank again and blindly feel for both the slot on the pulley and the slot on the crank to see if they are lined up or not. Only way to do it is with a mirror. I do have a cable that attaches to my cell phone that is a camera with a light on the end . Might give that a try. Slippage, still seams to be the most logical explanation. |
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01-21-2020, 12:36 PM | #50 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
When I blow up the picture in post # 36 I think I see the woodruff key in the slot that is broken out of the pulley. If so, it is not slipped.
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01-21-2020, 03:06 PM | #51 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
But from what I could see, I believe the 6 cyl. pulley is 2 grooved for the power steering application. (not positive)
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01-21-2020, 04:38 PM | #52 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
The OHV 6 cyl have a bit different style of pulley.
With some mass closest to timing cover. |
01-21-2020, 05:23 PM | #53 | |||
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The mystery remains. Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-21-2020 at 05:28 PM. |
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01-21-2020, 05:44 PM | #54 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
How long has this engine been together and running? Is there a chance the timing gears are not lined up correctly, but the timing has been moved enough to compensate to make it run?
3blap. |
01-21-2020, 06:38 PM | #55 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
For discussion sake, how would a engine run that had the "timing moved enough to compensate to make it run"? I would be interesting in knowing, to see if my engine is exhibiting any of those symptoms. I have posted this previously, but for those of you wanting to know it sounds, come take a ride with me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8ekRfWS_eE For those who say, any car runs well when it is warm, or too much music, I can't hear the engine, come take another ride with me, but you will have to put on a coat for this one. By the way I keep the choke turned off and it was 38 degrees that day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5biC4qjjTE&t=85s Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-22-2020 at 12:31 PM. |
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01-22-2020, 11:29 AM | #56 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Timing marks look good. Crank pulley looks good.
Yeah, I don't know about the timing being off and running still. I think I managed to do that as a kid (on a OHV engine) but it ran like poop. No way you'd put over 8K miles on it like that. You know, I've heard (but have zero experience) that those original style cam gears will slip on itself, hence the solid aftermarket aluminum parts. If that did slip, I think it would still run with a twist of the distributor to compensate. I'll have to go back and look to see if the timing mark is way after TDC to run correctly/be in time... is that what's the problem? I'll have to go back and read the original post. |
01-22-2020, 12:27 PM | #57 | |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Quote:
Really, I have no problem or issues with the running/performance of the engine, I was just wondering why when I use a timing light (rather than tuning it with a vacuum gauge, the way I was taught) it reads way off. (an 1 1/2" before the timing button on the pulley) I thought maybe someone had run into this previously and could provide insight. Maybe I should have just left the timing light in the drawer where it has been for many, many years, and will remain. Thank you all for your reply's and suggestions, it is always a pleasure to learn from you. |
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01-22-2020, 01:19 PM | #58 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Merc, using whatever reference point for a start ... like the slot ... measure and see if the "timing button" is in the same place on both the installed pulley and your old pulley.
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01-22-2020, 03:25 PM | #59 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
From what I can tell, by putting the old pulley over the front of the new one, (shaft towards the engine) they appear to be the same.
Last edited by Merc Cruzer; 01-22-2020 at 03:51 PM. |
02-03-2020, 02:17 PM | #60 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
First, just a thank you all for your assistance.
I did get a chance to do a test run on Sunday. The car starts allot easier and quicker (one revolution). The engine seems noticeably quieter. Not sure if there is more power, if so it is not noticeable, but it does seem smother. Overall, I like that fact that I can now use the original timing mark in conjunction with my timing light, the original goal for this post. Thanks again, End post. |
02-03-2020, 04:19 PM | #61 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Congratulations! I know the feeling. I chased a problem like this on a '68 Corvette for almost a year. It turned out to be the plug wires off one position in the cap plus a slipped harmonic balance. That was FUN.
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03-24-2020, 12:10 PM | #62 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Did I miss something? What did you find that caused the problem?
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03-24-2020, 12:15 PM | #63 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
Yes, what was the problem?
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03-24-2020, 12:31 PM | #64 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
As I remember, the distributor miss-aligned and plug wiring. Believe there were multiple threads going on the same topic.
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03-24-2020, 03:58 PM | #65 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
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03-24-2020, 04:42 PM | #66 |
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Re: Incorrect timing on pulley of 53' Mercury
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Glad you found it. |
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