The Ford Barn

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-19-2023, 03:24 PM

OK, this 54 I just picked up as expected has No Power Steering or Power Brakes; no power master cylinder; so: Q. Any special way to bleed and adjust brakes? I know we do the "pump and bleed" with the power brakes, but how about these non-power brakes? The pedal now is hard as a rock, brakes but you have to stand on them.

Daves55Sedan · 07-19-2023, 04:28 PM

So, I grew up driving this '55 Ford sedan, beginning in 1973 and never got into a car that had power brakes until the 1980's. The first time I stepped on the brake pedal in my brand new 1982 Ford truck with power brakes, it nearly threw me through the windshield. So I can't speak to what might be too hard to be problematic. I prefer manual brakes.
As far as bleeding brake cylinders, I use my MityVac.
It is recommended to start with the cylinder furthest from the master cylinder and work your way to the closest. Using the MityVac, you can do the whole job without any help. You do still need to get up from under the car after bleeding each cylinder to fill the master cylinder.
Without a MityVac, you can do the job with a helper to sit in the car and push the pedal down to bleed the brakes. Close the bleeder screw each time brake fluid is pushed out of the system BEFORE the pedal is released.

Dobie Gillis · 07-19-2023, 04:41 PM

Welcome to Ford manual drum brakes. A hard pedal and the need to stand on 'em to get a result are par for the course.

dmsfrr · 07-19-2023, 05:40 PM

If the several rubber brake line hoses are stiff and have any hairline cracks they need to be replaced ASAP.

oldbugger · 07-19-2023, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daves55Sedan

So, I grew up driving this '55 Ford sedan, beginning in 1973 and never got into a car that had power brakes until the 1980's. The first time I stepped on the brake pedal in my brand new 1982 Ford truck with power brakes, it nearly threw me through the windshield. So I can't speak to what might be too hard to be problematic. I prefer manual brakes.
As far as bleeding brake cylinders, I use my MityVac.
It is recommended to start with the cylinder furthest from the master cylinder and work your way to the closest. Using the MityVac, you can do the whole job without any help. You do still need to get up from under the car after bleeding each cylinder to fill the master cylinder.
Without a MityVac, you can do the job with a helper to sit in the car and push the pedal down to bleed the brakes. Close the bleeder screw each time brake fluid is pushed out of the system BEFORE the pedal is released.

How do you know when the air is out of the system. The mityVac will keep sucking air around the loose bleeder

fordor41 · 07-19-2023, 10:14 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Dobie Gillis

Welcome to Ford manual drum brakes. A hard pedal and the need to stand on 'em to get a result are par for the course.

Our '60 Ford Fairlane has manual brakes and I don't have to "stand on it" to make it stop. Bleed, adj. all up and they work good. Definitely not like power but not a big chore. Ever watch old movies with 30's and 40's cars? they lock up the brakes all the time.

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-20-2023, 07:53 AM

Appreciate the replies; and "I" also grew up with No Power Brakes, so not surprised by them, the only concern I have with this 54 is that:

Pedal moves very little
Pedal is, somewhat excessively "hard"

Q. Any specific fluid you guys use, or typical brake fluid?

Q. Any other adjustments other than bleeding?

jayvee34 · 07-20-2023, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 54FordYBlockGuy

Appreciate the replies; and "I" also grew up with No Power Brakes, so not surprised by them, the only concern I have with this 54 is that:

Pedal moves very little
Pedal is, somewhat excessively "hard"

Q. Any specific fluid you guys use, or typical brake fluid?

Q. Any other adjustments other than bleeding?

IMO: The brakes have been adjusted to where the brake shoes are to tight
against the brake drums, so the brake pedal would not be able to travel much when pressed. with the wheels off the ground, try backing off the adjustment at each wheel and turn the wheel by hand where you will feel a slight drag. (equal feel at each wheel).
After adjustment check fluid level.

I have a 54 customline and my brake pedal travel's about a 1 1/2" before
making contact with the drum.

Hope this helps.

oldbugger · 07-20-2023, 12:27 PM

Is it possible you don't have a gap between your master and the rod from the pedal. there needs to be enough play there for the master to completely return to rest position.

Flathead Fever · 07-20-2023, 12:42 PM

You bleed the brakes the same if they are power brakes or manual. if the pedal is hard on the first push don't have any air in there. If you push down and then quickly do it a second time and the pedal comes up further and stays hard the brake need to be adjusted. If the pedal is still soft on the second pump it might still have some air in it. The fluid needs to be changed every two-years because it attracts moisture which is what pits the cylinders. Since it's a single system everything needs to be right. New hoses, look at the back of the master cylinder to make sure it's not leaking, pull back the rubber boots on the wheel cylinder to see if the cups are starting to leak. The pedal should never go below 50% of it's travel to stop.

Adjust the brakes until they lock up, back them off while counting the adjuster star teeth until you don't hear them rubbing. Adjust all four wheels exactly the same way, backing off the teeth the same amount so it stops evenly and does not pull to one side. Step on the brakes and make sure each brake applies and quickly releases. The reason i say to back them off until they are not touching comes from dealing with CHP on the 90-day bit inspections on the big trucks at work. The CHP inspectors were strict about the shoes not touching the drums because they would build up heat, When they inspected the trucks, they hit the drums with a hammer and if they went thud the shoes were touching the drums and if they rang like a bell they were not. I adjust the small drums brakes just like I did those big trucks, so they are just barely not touching the drums. With new shoes they will eventually wear into the diameter of the drum and need to be readjusted. Always replace the springs on old brakes, they break when they get old. It's so simple to do while your there and then you don't need to go back in there later to replace a broken spring. Don't leave any marks on the springs with pliers, the springs will break in those spots.

A pedal that is rock hard and does not let the brakes release could have the pedal rod adjusted too long and not be letting the master cylinder piston return all the way back. Wheel cylinders could also be frozen. Verify they are working, and the hard pedal is just normal and not something wrong.

I was an ASE certified light-duty and heavy-duty brake mechanic and a Master mechanic for 30-years. I've just about seen everything that can go wrong with brakes. I had factory Ford training and Bendix factory training.

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-20-2023, 05:55 PM

Flat Head; some great information. I can't remember the last time I "adjusted" brakes but as I was reading I can recall counting back the "Star" adjusted.

I'm going to inspect all the brakes, see what I got before I start the "bleeding" and "adjusting", probably will end up changing a lot of the components.

Appreciate all the replies.

JPL/OH

chain drive · 07-20-2023, 07:16 PM

when i worked in the ford dealer adjust till drum will not turn then 7 to 9 clicks on the adjuster and good to go worked then will work now

Daves55Sedan · 07-20-2023, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldbugger

How do you know when the air is out of the system. The mityVac will keep sucking air around the loose bleeder

Using a MityVac, you only open the bleeder screw just enough to allow a little to drip out, then stick your clear plastic tubing to the bleeder screw, then connect the MityVac. When the bleeder screw is barely open, the threads are mostly engaged and don't allow air to bleed through the threads.
Also, you will know if the screw is open too far if you have pumped the MityVac several times and are still pulling air into the clear plastic hose. If the screw is just barely open, you will get to the point where no more air bubbles will appear in the clear plastic hose.

Daves55Sedan · 07-20-2023, 10:08 PM

As far as the adjuster screws, I always start by dead-ending the shoes against the drums and adjusting the star-wheels backward TEN notches of the starwheel. I always do that while that wheel is OFF THE GROUND so that I can turn the tire and see if the shoes are still touching the drum. You may need to go push the pedal down one time and release then go back and rotate the tire again. Usually there is no friction at that point.

One other oddball reason the pedal is not moving is because maybe the master cylinder is locked up due to a previous owner filling it with incompatible fluids.
DO NOT mix DOT 3 fluid with DOT 5 fluid.

54FordYBlockGuy · 07-24-2023, 07:23 AM

Thanks for all the tips; going to pull all the wheels next week or so (when I get back from Florida) and just take a good look at the brakes; I'm sure I'll probably be replacing pads, having the drums turned, and hopefully no cylinders; but we'll see. Again, thanks for all the tips.

07-19-2023, 03:24 PM	#1
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Bleeding Brakes on a 54 OK, this 54 I just picked up as expected has No Power Steering or Power Brakes; no power master cylinder; so: Q. Any special way to bleed and adjust brakes? I know we do the "pump and bleed" with the power brakes, but how about these non-power brakes? The pedal now is hard as a rock, brakes but you have to stand on them.

07-19-2023, 04:28 PM	#2
Daves55Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Granite City, Illinois Posts: 3,008	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 So, I grew up driving this '55 Ford sedan, beginning in 1973 and never got into a car that had power brakes until the 1980's. The first time I stepped on the brake pedal in my brand new 1982 Ford truck with power brakes, it nearly threw me through the windshield. So I can't speak to what might be too hard to be problematic. I prefer manual brakes. As far as bleeding brake cylinders, I use my MityVac. It is recommended to start with the cylinder furthest from the master cylinder and work your way to the closest. Using the MityVac, you can do the whole job without any help. You do still need to get up from under the car after bleeding each cylinder to fill the master cylinder. Without a MityVac, you can do the job with a helper to sit in the car and push the pedal down to bleed the brakes. Close the bleeder screw each time brake fluid is pushed out of the system BEFORE the pedal is released.

07-19-2023, 04:41 PM	#3
Dobie Gillis Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Middle TN Posts: 1,060	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 Welcome to Ford manual drum brakes. A hard pedal and the need to stand on 'em to get a result are par for the course. __________________ Often wrong but never in doubt.

07-19-2023, 05:40 PM	#4
dmsfrr Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Abq, NM Posts: 3,607	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 If the several rubber brake line hoses are stiff and have any hairline cracks they need to be replaced ASAP.

07-20-2023, 07:53 AM	#7
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 Appreciate the replies; and "I" also grew up with No Power Brakes, so not surprised by them, the only concern I have with this 54 is that: Pedal moves very little Pedal is, somewhat excessively "hard" Q. Any specific fluid you guys use, or typical brake fluid? Q. Any other adjustments other than bleeding?

07-20-2023, 12:27 PM	#9
oldbugger Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Holland Mi Posts: 642	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 Is it possible you don't have a gap between your master and the rod from the pedal. there needs to be enough play there for the master to completely return to rest position.

07-20-2023, 12:42 PM	#10
Flathead Fever Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Yucaipa, CA Posts: 1,095	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 You bleed the brakes the same if they are power brakes or manual. if the pedal is hard on the first push don't have any air in there. If you push down and then quickly do it a second time and the pedal comes up further and stays hard the brake need to be adjusted. If the pedal is still soft on the second pump it might still have some air in it. The fluid needs to be changed every two-years because it attracts moisture which is what pits the cylinders. Since it's a single system everything needs to be right. New hoses, look at the back of the master cylinder to make sure it's not leaking, pull back the rubber boots on the wheel cylinder to see if the cups are starting to leak. The pedal should never go below 50% of it's travel to stop. Adjust the brakes until they lock up, back them off while counting the adjuster star teeth until you don't hear them rubbing. Adjust all four wheels exactly the same way, backing off the teeth the same amount so it stops evenly and does not pull to one side. Step on the brakes and make sure each brake applies and quickly releases. The reason i say to back them off until they are not touching comes from dealing with CHP on the 90-day bit inspections on the big trucks at work. The CHP inspectors were strict about the shoes not touching the drums because they would build up heat, When they inspected the trucks, they hit the drums with a hammer and if they went thud the shoes were touching the drums and if they rang like a bell they were not. I adjust the small drums brakes just like I did those big trucks, so they are just barely not touching the drums. With new shoes they will eventually wear into the diameter of the drum and need to be readjusted. Always replace the springs on old brakes, they break when they get old. It's so simple to do while your there and then you don't need to go back in there later to replace a broken spring. Don't leave any marks on the springs with pliers, the springs will break in those spots. A pedal that is rock hard and does not let the brakes release could have the pedal rod adjusted too long and not be letting the master cylinder piston return all the way back. Wheel cylinders could also be frozen. Verify they are working, and the hard pedal is just normal and not something wrong. I was an ASE certified light-duty and heavy-duty brake mechanic and a Master mechanic for 30-years. I've just about seen everything that can go wrong with brakes. I had factory Ford training and Bendix factory training. Last edited by Flathead Fever; 07-20-2023 at 01:06 PM.

07-20-2023, 05:55 PM	#11
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 Flat Head; some great information. I can't remember the last time I "adjusted" brakes but as I was reading I can recall counting back the "Star" adjusted. I'm going to inspect all the brakes, see what I got before I start the "bleeding" and "adjusting", probably will end up changing a lot of the components. Appreciate all the replies. JPL/OH

07-20-2023, 07:16 PM	#12
chain drive Member Join Date: Oct 2020 Posts: 73	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 when i worked in the ford dealer adjust till drum will not turn then 7 to 9 clicks on the adjuster and good to go worked then will work now

07-20-2023, 10:08 PM	#14
Daves55Sedan Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Granite City, Illinois Posts: 3,008	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 As far as the adjuster screws, I always start by dead-ending the shoes against the drums and adjusting the star-wheels backward TEN notches of the starwheel. I always do that while that wheel is OFF THE GROUND so that I can turn the tire and see if the shoes are still touching the drum. You may need to go push the pedal down one time and release then go back and rotate the tire again. Usually there is no friction at that point. One other oddball reason the pedal is not moving is because maybe the master cylinder is locked up due to a previous owner filling it with incompatible fluids. DO NOT mix DOT 3 fluid with DOT 5 fluid.

07-24-2023, 07:23 AM	#15
54FordYBlockGuy Member Join Date: Jul 2023 Posts: 82	Re: Bleeding Brakes on a 54 Thanks for all the tips; going to pull all the wheels next week or so (when I get back from Florida) and just take a good look at the brakes; I'm sure I'll probably be replacing pads, having the drums turned, and hopefully no cylinders; but we'll see. Again, thanks for all the tips.