Narrow V8 Rear Axle

[jeepguy1948]

This is not my first thread on this topic but I have a bit more info now so I thought I would start fresh. My mockup is done and the combination of Model A axle with the Lincoln brakes, the 16” wires and the tires I am using is about 2” per side. Everything worked fine with the original mechanical brakes but the Lincoln brakes add 1.5” per side. A V8 axle is as wide or wider (depending on year) than a Model A axle so simply swapping a V8 axle won’t help. I believe but am not certain (maybe somebody here knows the answer) that the ‘40 style juice brakes add as much width as the Lincoln self energizing brakes do so even going with the ‘40 brakes won’t solve the problem either. I want a stronger axle than the Model A axle but I want to stick with the banjo style if I can so a V8 axle would be where to start. What I need (I believe) is somebody to supply shorter axle shafts, I could narrow a V8 housing myself. Ideas anybody?

[30Murray]

I have a 1934 rear axle on my AV8 with '39-42 style hydraulic brakes, 16" wires widened by 1 1/2" on the inside with 225/75R 16 tires and it is lowered a few inches as well. They fit perfectly within the rear fenders. I think you may be overly concerned. I don't think the axles themselves are any stronger than the Model A - the only difference appears to be the length, but the spider gear assembly has one additional gear. Vern Tardel has a good booklet on identifying and servicing the V8 axles.

[Bored&Stroked]

What width are you trying to achieve - backing plate mounting face to backing plate mounting face?

I don't know of anybody who can supply narrowed tapered axles (and I wouldn't invest in them anyway!).

Another approach would be to get rid of the tapered axles/hubs from the early Ford rear, weld on new modern bearing ends on the rear-end housing bells and run modern 28 spline 8-inch axles and later drum brakes.

The ring-gear needs to be bored to except the later side gears and the differential housing needs modified as well.

You can get modern axles in any width you want - with 5 1/2 x 5 bolt circles as well.

Also, this type of rear will be a LOT stronger than any V8 rear end with stock-style tapered axles (the ends). Talk to the new owners of HotRod works, they can supply you with the modified side-gears, can modify the ring gear and differential for the slide-in-axle side gears, etc.. They can also build you a complete rear end.

An important note is that to weld on new axle bearing ends, you need a big-ole alignment bar and 2 sets of "pucks" to pick up the outer bearing IDs and the two differential bearing locations. This is so the resulting bearing bores and differential bearings are all running on the same centerline - you shouldn't just weld the ends on and assume you can get them correctly oriented.

https://hotrodworks.com/

Note: You'll also be using later Ford drum brakes - which is an added bonus in my mind (lots cheaper than repop early Ford brakes).

[jeepguy1948]

I try and lay out all the information I can but things in I post get missed. I already have about 1,500 into Lincoln/Bendix Brakes. This in fact is the whole problem, those brakes add 1.5-2” per side, I was ok until I put them on. I have this mocked up right now and it’s pretty darn clear that it’s not going to work unless. I trade off travel or don’t lower it as I want to. Good info bored. Unfortunately there is absolutely zero information supplied with the Lincoln brakes to inform the prospective buyer that the brakes will add width. I painted them before mockup (lesson learned) so I can’t return them. I really wanted disc brakes but had to give up on them because they would add width and I knew I didn’t have room for it.

[jeepguy1948]

I think that I am going to give up on trying to keep the look of the banjo. There are newer axles readily available ( a 10 bolt from a S-10 is one of them) that need very little to modify to install. I think $1k total would do it. I’m not going to go bonkers to keep the banjo look.

[Bored&Stroked]

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If you already have a V8 rear, you might find that it isn't a huge expense to do the above mods. Also, they used to have housing ends that would take the original Ford or Lincoln brakes - and later axles. The look of a banjo is probably a lot better than an S-10. A better looking later rear would be an 8" Ford.

[alchemy]

Are you aware you can’t fit old Ford wires to modern brakes without a thick adapter? The wheel has an outer mounting flange that hits the drum of a modern brake. That’s why we use the 40-48 year drums and add the little inner support ring too. Those wheels are a mother….

[deuce lover]

Here are some measurements that might help.My buddy here is going thru the issue to mount 35 wire wheels on his 29 roadster.His current rear is a 8" Cougar at 60 " wide. With the Speedway adapters the wheels and tires are spread out to wide for the car,nearly 6 " on each side. Impossible to find a Maverick rear here in Europe so he is shortening his 8" rear and replacing the axles with new from Summit.Expensive conversion.

[deuce lover]

....

[Bored&Stroked]

Another thing to think about is mounting the rear - what springs, what cross-member, what control arms, torque-tube or open-drive, shocks, panhard bar, etc..

If you're going to run a transverse spring and your frame is setup for it, then an early V8 rear would make a lot of sense. Think through the entire package before heading down any specific direction.

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by deuce lover

Here are some measurements that might help.My buddy here is going thru the issue to mount 35 wire wheels on his 29 roadster.His current rear is a 8" Cougar at 60 " wide. With the Speedway adapters the wheels and tires are spread out to wide for the car,nearly 6 " on each side. Impossible to find a Maverick rear here in Europe so he is shortening his 8" rear and replacing the axles with new from Summit.Expensive conversion.

[rotorwrench]

The Hot Rod Works advertised axle conversions for early Ford housings. Just about anything is possible if one is willing to throw enough funds at it and do all the work. The M/T Lincoln brakes could use the Ford 12" drums. The Lincoln ones were a bit beefier but that's about it.

[BlueNotes]

Originally Posted by jeepguy1948

I try and lay out all the information I can but things in I post get missed. I already have about 1,500 into Lincoln/Bendix Brakes. This in fact is the whole problem, those brakes add 1.5-2” per side, I was ok until I put them on. I have this mocked up right now and it’s pretty darn clear that it’s not going to work unless. I trade off travel or don’t lower it as I want to. Good info bored. Unfortunately there is absolutely zero information supplied with the Lincoln brakes to inform the prospective buyer that the brakes will add width. I painted them before mockup (lesson learned) so I can’t return them. I really wanted disc brakes but had to give up on them because they would add width and I knew I didn’t have room for it.

The added width caused by your Lincoln/Bendix hubs and brake drums with 2" shoes from Boling Brothers is obviously the main reason for not getting the wheels tucked under the fenders.

Have you considered, or tried, to use the Ford 1935 rear drums together with the Boling B "Lincoln" backing plates on your model A axle? The width of the '35 drums is 3.50" (vs 3.75" Ford 1940-48 rear drums), and they are the last year for use with wire wheels. However, you have to replace the 2" shoes with 1.75" shoes and use 1928-35 wheel bearings, but everything else in the Boling B "Lincoln" backing plate kit should be okay to use.

[jeepguy1948]

Even before the Lincoln brakes I was 1/2-3/4” wide so the extra 1 1/2” that the Lincoln’s add definitely pushes it into the “no-can-do” department. Something that will shave anything less than 2” is not really worth doing.

For the record, the ‘40 brakes would have been nearly as bad.

I already have the Lincoln brakes, all painted up so they can’t be returned, very, very, expensive so It’s going to take a really really good reason not to use them.

[jeepguy1948]

PS, I have a guy looking for a Maverick axle but even that won’t work unless I can get axles for it with the 5x5.5 pattern because the width added by the adapters would push the total width back into the no can do range. This car looks totally stock except for the ‘35 wire wheels and I want to do all I can to keep it that way so a Banjo axle makes sense.

[Bored&Stroked]

Best solution: Banjo axle, updated with late 28 spline axles with a 5 x 5 1/2 bolt pattern, new axle bearing ends for using the Lincoln backing plates and brakes, modified differential and ring gear for using the special 28 spline side-gears from HRW. Easiest to install in the car by far.

It all fits, it looks original, axles are much stronger . . . Jed's a Millionaire. LOL

[TomT/Williamsburg]

Just did this (or should I say my buddy who is a hit rodder and has a machine shop. He also just did his 35 5-window which was great because I am using a 36 axle) to my avatar with 9” axles and mid 60s Ford truck brakes. Looks great and works like a charm - mine and his!

[itslow]

Mock up your Model A rear axle with the hubs used for your Lincoln (Bendix) brakes. Put under the car and install wheels. Post photos.

The Boling Lincoln style drums use '40 Ford style hubs. They will not be wider than whatever the '40 Ford (Lockheed) style brakes were/are on the Model A axle.

[alchemy]

He has about a dozen threads spread over the Fordbarn and the HAMB asking how to solve this “problem”, but refuses to post a pic to show how bad it really is. I can’t fathom how guys have been putting 40 brakes onto A’s for a lifetime, and this is the first time anyone has ever found an issue. I’ll just think it’s a non-issue til he shows a pic.

Edit: I actually find it kinda humorous now when I see a new thread from him, banging his head on the invisible wall. But I’m a jerk like that.

[rotorwrench]

Most of them use the A axle and wheels so they can have the juice brake but stock look.

I wonder how many quick change axles have been narrowed for custom race applications. Nothing is new under the sun.