The Ford Barn

troutmalt · 11-08-2022, 08:05 PM

OK - I got soaked in this rain but but this was important to me
The number on the distributor is 8C27.
So the question is - what is the design parameter for full advance on this unit - @ 24 or 35 degrees at full advance?
An again thanks for all the sage advice and information.

Dodge · 11-09-2022, 12:01 AM

Pull the plate that the points mount on and look at the advance mechanism. You will
see two "slots" that limit the advance. You want the longer one to get the advance to
go further. You also should lighten up the springs to get the advance in quicker.
I'll look tomorrow at work and get you the McMaster Carr part #
You want a total of 34-36 degrees and a quicker advance, you can feel it in the seat of
your pants......

Dodge

KULTULZ · 11-09-2022, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troutmalt

- Ford Industrial Engine:
Serial: 1183-H24KT
Type: 302:GP -6001-OF
Options: 90-1710

The number on the distributor is 8C27

.

So the question is - what is the design parameter for full advance on this unit - @ 24 or 35 degrees at full advance?

An again thanks for all the sage advice and information

That is the DIST ASSY DATE. The ASSY I.D. info should be stamped directly above the DATE CODE.

What you have (for some unknown reason) is an INDUSTRIAL ENGINE. It was not designed for highway use. The DIST CURVE is intended for a stationary application.

flatrod · 11-09-2022, 10:14 AM

You should be looking for a 12127 number, and I would think it would have a "J" in it. Part number should look something like C8JE 12127 XX. J being a marine designation and most industrial applications. 8C27 is March 27th of 1968. So with that date code it tells use its at least a Ford dist. Marine dist did not have vac advance on them.
Also Dodge has it right, the slots within the dist control how much advance it will have and springs control how fast it comes in.

troutmalt · 11-11-2022, 10:44 AM

Breaking news - you experts wanted my distributor number - I finally found it. First there is 8C27 which I have been led to believe is only a date code.
Next number is 12127E. One of you folks indicated that from this number
you could confirm what the full advance range for this device is.
Again the most advance I can get it 24 degrees BTDC. Anxious to receive your input on whatever this part number tells us.to solve this mystery.

I suspect i need to buy a differenct distributor - maybe pointless.
Again, multi thanks

paul2748 · 11-11-2022, 04:46 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The 12127 number is the generic part number for a distributor. The letters and numbers that precede it would tell us what year it is. If it is a 68 (which the date code seems to indicate) C8XX
would precede the 12127.

Quote:

Originally Posted by troutmalt

Breaking news - you experts wanted my distributor number - I finally found it. First there is 8C27 which I have been led to believe is only a date code.
Next number is 12127E. One of you folks indicated that from this number
you could confirm what the full advance range for this device is.
Again the most advance I can get it 24 degrees BTDC. Anxious to receive your input on whatever this part number tells us.to solve this mystery.

I suspect i need to buy a differenct distributor - maybe pointless.
Again, multi thanks

5851a · 11-11-2022, 08:51 PM

Distributor and carburation tuning is an expert field, as in the new modern world of setting programming pcm's. I am not an expert in either. There is no immediate fix other than experience or trial and error. Every area is different, temps, altitude, grade of fuel. After this many years and many people stabbing in parts from overhauls to camshafts who knows. A pointless conversion may just complicate matters. Part of the old car aurora is tuning it better than the next guy. Don't focus on the numbers, take a test run for awhile.

troutmalt · 11-11-2022, 08:55 PM

Mr. Flathead Fever
I am indebted sir. That is the best explanation I have ever heard about the interaction or the vacuum advance with the mechanical advance, the RPM and the timing. It also convinces me that this Ford exotic had a HI-Po distributor stock with no vacuum pot nor place for one.
Thanks for the great lesson.
Ron

scicala · 11-12-2022, 12:09 PM

"It seems to me the missing degrees of advance is because the vacuum advance is gone. Normally you would check the initial advance with a timing light with the vacuum advance unplugged and you would see your 6-10 degrees of initial advance. Then run the rpm up and check the mechanical advance with an adjustable timing light (only buy a timing light with the adjustable feature and you won't need tape on the pulley). Then you put a handheld vacuum pump on the vacuum advance, pump it up and check the vacuum advance degrees of advance. Add them all up and you have the total advance."

I don't think this is entirely true. When under a heavy load or wide open throttle, there is virtually no manifold vacuum, so the vacuum advance isn't being used. Total desired timing should be with centrifugal advance plus the base timing seting.

Sal

Late model · 11-12-2022, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by troutmalt

Mr. Flathead Fever
It also convinces me that this Ford exotic had a HI-Po distributor stock with no vacuum pot nor place for one.
Thanks for the great lesson.
Ron

Ron,

Some thoughts.

The info SCIALA just posted is the best procedure when checking total timing.

Your engine ID plate confirms it's an industrial engine. Most, if not all, industrial engines do not use a vacuum advance because they are usually single speed, and do not need more than 24 degrees of advance because they usually run below 3600 RPM and often have to run on poor grades of fuel. If you do have a high performance distributor someone more than likely changed it from the industrial version.

What type of timing light are you using? The standard version that requires some type of graduated timing marks on the dampener, or an electronic one that uses a screen?
It appears that you had a difficult time finding the right tape and installing it because of access. Are you sure you have the TDC mark on the tape matched with TDC on the dampener? It would be easy to do if you have a lot of stuff in the way. That would explain the lack of advance.

I went back through the posts and didn't find if you confirmed that the TDC mark on the dampener matched TDC of #1 piston by using either a piston stop or check #1 piston valve rock over. It could be that the pulley portion slipped out of position. It happens occasionally.

If you are still seeing a total advance of 24 degrees I would try to find a used or new replacement distributor and see if that brings the advance up to somewhere around 34 degrees.
Let us know if you get it solved.

Don

scicala · 11-12-2022, 06:12 PM

It may also be possible like mentioned earier, to modify the stops for the fly weights so they can expand further and increase the amount of centrifugal advance.
I've done this on GM distributors with success.

Sal

Dodge · 11-12-2022, 06:18 PM

I told you what to do either do it or get another distributor.

Dodge

KULTULZ · 11-13-2022, 04:57 AM

!!! BINGO !!!

Quote:

it appears that you had a difficult time finding the right tape and installing it because of access. Are you sure you have the tdc mark on the tape matched with tdc on the dampener? It would be easy to do if you have a lot of stuff in the way. That would explain the lack of advance.

I went back through the posts and didn't find if you confirmed that the tdc mark on the dampener matched tdc of #1 piston by using either a piston stop or check #1 piston valve rock over. It could be that the pulley portion slipped out of position. It happens occasionally.

We have a winner! Cupie doll please ...

troutmalt · 11-15-2022, 12:21 PM

Neither a new distributor nor modifications will solve the basic problem.
Turning this distributor by hand until the engine stumbles and dies is a range of only @ 26 degrees.

It dies at @ 2 degrees ATDC and at 24 degrees BTDC.

Something basic is wrong here. Off a tooth? Harmonic balance has moved?
Cam timing is off?

This engine should run in a range of at least 38-40 degrees of rotation.

KULTULZ · 11-15-2022, 02:09 PM

Quote:

This engine should run in a range of at least 38-40 degrees of rotation.

Not if it is an INDUSTIAL ENGINE ...

We need the first four characters OF THE DIST ASSY ID CODE before the 12127-X.

You are beating yourself to death for no good reason. But I do admire your perseverance ...

Late model · 11-15-2022, 03:23 PM

Ron,

I think you really need to use a troubleshooting process that starts with a guess (hypothesis) and then use a test that tells you if you are right or wrong.

You think the harmonic balancer has moved (hypothesis). OK, then check if the TDC mark on the balancer lines up with the pointer on the block with #1 at the top of the compression stroke (confirmed with valve rockover or a piston stop). If it does the balancer is not the problem.

You think the distributor may be off a tooth (hypothesis). OK, set the #1 piston at the top of the compression stroke, remove the distributor cap, and see if the rotor is pointing to the number 1 spark plug wire. If it does that is not the problem.

You can only get 24 degrees of total advance, it should be at least 34. OK, maybe it's an industrial engine. (hypothesis). Your engine has plate that ID's it as Industrial. Your distributor has no vacuum advance. Neither does an industrial engine. Check the distributor ID plate. If it's automotive, it's probably some internal problem, repair or replace it. If it can't be decoded then replace it with an automotive distributor.

The first mention of it being an industrial had a number of members honing in in on that. Changing out the distributor for a known good automotive distributor or getting a full set of distributor numbers to KULTUZ, as mentioned by previous posts, would have taken that off the list.

You need to determine if this is an industrial distributor or not by ID or replacing it before tackling some of the other ideas.

Don

KULTULZ · 11-16-2022, 04:28 AM

What I can't cipher is why an auto maker (EURO) would put an INDUSTRIAL ENGINE into a car chassis.

Maybe the cost of importing an automotive engine was too great and there is a EURO based FORD INDUSTRIAL ENGINE distributor there that can make that access easier and cheaper? And why was the engine not modified for auto use? FORD would drop the warranty?

And while I am still wondering (as I often do), why is there a 4V on an industrial engine, especially an emissions compliant 4300 SERIES CARB?

Dobie Gillis · 11-16-2022, 09:50 AM

The vehicle in question is 54 years old, give or take. There's no telling what has ensued since the day it left the assembly line. Who's to say the engine/distributor are original?

flatrod · 11-16-2022, 10:47 AM

quote,
(Neither a new distributor nor modifications will solve the basic problem.
Turning this distributor by hand until the engine stumbles and dies is a range of only @ 26 degrees.

It dies at @ 2 degrees ATDC and at 24 degrees BTDC.

Something basic is wrong here. Off a tooth? Harmonic balance has moved?
Cam timing is off?

This engine should run in a range of at least 38-40 degrees of rotation.)

This makes no sense to me unless you are doing this at idle. Checking full advance is not done at idle speed. Set your initial at say 10 degrees, lock it down, then rev it up to say 2500 rpm and take a reading. Rev it up higher and see if it is still advancing. When it stops advancing that will be your total. Someone with a dist machine, and knows how to use it, will be able to make yours do what you want. You don't need a new one unless you just want one with vac advance.

KULTULZ · 11-16-2022, 05:57 PM

This whole conversation is mute as no one knows how the engine was (is) assembled and if any modification(s) were done by the car company or anytime afterwards (or why used).

It is TAGGED INDUSTRIAL ENGINE. I have no experience with them and it seems others can't grasp the idea of this being a stationary engine not designed for automotive use.

You can b!tch and groan until the cows come home and it is neither going to change or be answered correctly/satisfactorily.

11-08-2022, 08:05 PM	#21
troutmalt Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Posts: 33	Re: Timing at full advance? OK - I got soaked in this rain but but this was important to me The number on the distributor is 8C27. So the question is - what is the design parameter for full advance on this unit - @ 24 or 35 degrees at full advance? An again thanks for all the sage advice and information.

11-09-2022, 12:01 AM	#22
Dodge Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Sonoma, CA. Posts: 1,499	Re: Timing at full advance? Pull the plate that the points mount on and look at the advance mechanism. You will see two "slots" that limit the advance. You want the longer one to get the advance to go further. You also should lighten up the springs to get the advance in quicker. I'll look tomorrow at work and get you the McMaster Carr part # You want a total of 34-36 degrees and a quicker advance, you can feel it in the seat of your pants...... Dodge

11-09-2022, 10:14 AM	#24
flatrod Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 291	Re: Timing at full advance? You should be looking for a 12127 number, and I would think it would have a "J" in it. Part number should look something like C8JE 12127 XX. J being a marine designation and most industrial applications. 8C27 is March 27th of 1968. So with that date code it tells use its at least a Ford dist. Marine dist did not have vac advance on them. Also Dodge has it right, the slots within the dist control how much advance it will have and springs control how fast it comes in.

11-11-2022, 10:44 AM	#25
troutmalt Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Posts: 33	Re: Timing at full advance? Breaking news - you experts wanted my distributor number - I finally found it. First there is 8C27 which I have been led to believe is only a date code. Next number is 12127E. One of you folks indicated that from this number you could confirm what the full advance range for this device is. Again the most advance I can get it 24 degrees BTDC. Anxious to receive your input on whatever this part number tells us.to solve this mystery. I suspect i need to buy a differenct distributor - maybe pointless. Again, multi thanks

11-11-2022, 08:51 PM	#27
5851a Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: NE Iowa Posts: 1,668	Re: Timing at full advance? Distributor and carburation tuning is an expert field, as in the new modern world of setting programming pcm's. I am not an expert in either. There is no immediate fix other than experience or trial and error. Every area is different, temps, altitude, grade of fuel. After this many years and many people stabbing in parts from overhauls to camshafts who knows. A pointless conversion may just complicate matters. Part of the old car aurora is tuning it better than the next guy. Don't focus on the numbers, take a test run for awhile.

11-11-2022, 08:55 PM	#28
troutmalt Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Posts: 33	Re: Timing at full advance? Mr. Flathead Fever I am indebted sir. That is the best explanation I have ever heard about the interaction or the vacuum advance with the mechanical advance, the RPM and the timing. It also convinces me that this Ford exotic had a HI-Po distributor stock with no vacuum pot nor place for one. Thanks for the great lesson. Ron

11-12-2022, 12:09 PM	#29
scicala Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Detroit suburb, MI Posts: 3,706	Re: Timing at full advance? "It seems to me the missing degrees of advance is because the vacuum advance is gone. Normally you would check the initial advance with a timing light with the vacuum advance unplugged and you would see your 6-10 degrees of initial advance. Then run the rpm up and check the mechanical advance with an adjustable timing light (only buy a timing light with the adjustable feature and you won't need tape on the pulley). Then you put a handheld vacuum pump on the vacuum advance, pump it up and check the vacuum advance degrees of advance. Add them all up and you have the total advance." I don't think this is entirely true. When under a heavy load or wide open throttle, there is virtually no manifold vacuum, so the vacuum advance isn't being used. Total desired timing should be with centrifugal advance plus the base timing seting. Sal

11-12-2022, 06:12 PM	#31
scicala Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Detroit suburb, MI Posts: 3,706	Re: Timing at full advance? It may also be possible like mentioned earier, to modify the stops for the fly weights so they can expand further and increase the amount of centrifugal advance. I've done this on GM distributors with success. Sal

11-12-2022, 06:18 PM	#32
Dodge Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Sonoma, CA. Posts: 1,499	Re: Timing at full advance? I told you what to do either do it or get another distributor. Dodge

11-15-2022, 12:21 PM	#34
troutmalt Member Join Date: Oct 2022 Posts: 33	Re: Timing at full advance? Neither a new distributor nor modifications will solve the basic problem. Turning this distributor by hand until the engine stumbles and dies is a range of only @ 26 degrees. It dies at @ 2 degrees ATDC and at 24 degrees BTDC. Something basic is wrong here. Off a tooth? Harmonic balance has moved? Cam timing is off? This engine should run in a range of at least 38-40 degrees of rotation.

11-15-2022, 03:23 PM	#36
Late model Member Join Date: Dec 2020 Location: Lakeville, MN Posts: 34	Re: Timing at full advance? Ron, I think you really need to use a troubleshooting process that starts with a guess (hypothesis) and then use a test that tells you if you are right or wrong. You think the harmonic balancer has moved (hypothesis). OK, then check if the TDC mark on the balancer lines up with the pointer on the block with #1 at the top of the compression stroke (confirmed with valve rockover or a piston stop). If it does the balancer is not the problem. You think the distributor may be off a tooth (hypothesis). OK, set the #1 piston at the top of the compression stroke, remove the distributor cap, and see if the rotor is pointing to the number 1 spark plug wire. If it does that is not the problem. You can only get 24 degrees of total advance, it should be at least 34. OK, maybe it's an industrial engine. (hypothesis). Your engine has plate that ID's it as Industrial. Your distributor has no vacuum advance. Neither does an industrial engine. Check the distributor ID plate. If it's automotive, it's probably some internal problem, repair or replace it. If it can't be decoded then replace it with an automotive distributor. The first mention of it being an industrial had a number of members honing in in on that. Changing out the distributor for a known good automotive distributor or getting a full set of distributor numbers to KULTUZ, as mentioned by previous posts, would have taken that off the list. You need to determine if this is an industrial distributor or not by ID or replacing it before tackling some of the other ideas. Don

11-16-2022, 04:28 AM	#37
KULTULZ Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY Posts: 6,545	Re: Timing at full advance? What I can't cipher is why an auto maker (EURO) would put an INDUSTRIAL ENGINE into a car chassis. Maybe the cost of importing an automotive engine was too great and there is a EURO based FORD INDUSTRIAL ENGINE distributor there that can make that access easier and cheaper? And why was the engine not modified for auto use? FORD would drop the warranty? And while I am still wondering (as I often do), why is there a 4V on an industrial engine, especially an emissions compliant 4300 SERIES CARB? __________________ *** - AT MY AGE, ONE APPRECIATES A STURDY HANDRAIL -**

11-16-2022, 09:50 AM	#38
Dobie Gillis Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Middle TN Posts: 1,060	Re: Timing at full advance? The vehicle in question is 54 years old, give or take. There's no telling what has ensued since the day it left the assembly line. Who's to say the engine/distributor are original? __________________ Often wrong but never in doubt.

11-16-2022, 10:47 AM	#39
flatrod Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 291	Re: Timing at full advance? quote, (Neither a new distributor nor modifications will solve the basic problem. Turning this distributor by hand until the engine stumbles and dies is a range of only @ 26 degrees. It dies at @ 2 degrees ATDC and at 24 degrees BTDC. Something basic is wrong here. Off a tooth? Harmonic balance has moved? Cam timing is off? This engine should run in a range of at least 38-40 degrees of rotation.) This makes no sense to me unless you are doing this at idle. Checking full advance is not done at idle speed. Set your initial at say 10 degrees, lock it down, then rev it up to say 2500 rpm and take a reading. Rev it up higher and see if it is still advancing. When it stops advancing that will be your total. Someone with a dist machine, and knows how to use it, will be able to make yours do what you want. You don't need a new one unless you just want one with vac advance.

11-16-2022, 05:57 PM	#40
KULTULZ Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: IN A 'GALAXIE' FAR FAR AWAY Posts: 6,545	Re: Timing at full advance? This whole conversation is mute as no one knows how the engine was (is) assembled and if any modification(s) were done by the car company or anytime afterwards (or why used). It is TAGGED INDUSTRIAL ENGINE. I have no experience with them and it seems others can't grasp the idea of this being a stationary engine not designed for automotive use. You can b!tch and groan until the cows come home and it is neither going to change or be answered correctly/satisfactorily.