The Ford Barn

Flathead-Arm · 12-04-2016, 07:39 PM

I'm in the planning stages of building a flathead for a Model A hot rod. Don't know much about them (which is why I decided to go this route). From my research, it seems it best to go with a late 8ba. Since everything will be replaced, with performance products, it doesn't really matter whether to go with Ford or Mercury.
I'm looking to get as much hp as possible being normally aspirated. So I'm going for the Scat 304 kit.
One question I do have is the publications. I see a lot of books out there on the flatheads but I don't wanna buy them all. What's the common census on the best rebuild/modification book?

Thanks

flatjack9 · 12-04-2016, 07:44 PM

John Lawson's book, "Flathead Facts" is a must read.

Flathead-Arm · 12-04-2016, 07:56 PM

Thanks I'll look it up.
My plan is to be able to take it to a machine shop (probably Harold "Putt") tell him what machine work I want done to it. Then take it home and assemble it myself (with my 16yr old). Is there a list of typical performance machine work that's done to these engines?

JSeery · 12-04-2016, 08:18 PM

It is a very informative book, but it relates to testing various bolt-on items on a relatively stock block/engine.

VeryTangled · 12-04-2016, 09:18 PM

For guideness I recommend a bat and a piniata.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flathead-Arm

I'm looking to get as much hp as possible being normally aspirated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flathead-Arm

Is there a list of typical performance machine work that's done to these engines?

Hi Everyone. Flathead-Arm, Welcome to the FordBarn Forums!

For guidelines... I'm not trying to be a dick, but I just gotta say.. My advice is make a pile of money that you hope will do the job. Then add twice that much beside it. Then do your build.

I'd suggest making the engine run with one carb (not that one!) and go from there if you really want to drive it more than 2 miles sometime soon.

JSeery · 12-04-2016, 10:35 PM

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Some books/reading I would recommend.

Mike in AZ · 12-05-2016, 02:08 AM

welcome to the 'Barn.....where are you located?...barnes and noble sometimes have flathead books on the shelves...might browse them before you buy....Frank Oddo's book is pretty good.....Vern Tardel wrote a book on the A-V8.....good luck and post some pics if you have 'em...Mike

Paul Bennett · 12-05-2016, 02:38 AM

It wouldn't hurt to check your local library first. It sucks to buy a book only to find it doesn't suit your needs, and having 'Flathead' in the title means little. Best to turn the pages before you lay out a 20.

JWL · 12-05-2016, 05:10 AM

I'm sorry J Seery missed reading the half of my book, Flathead Facts, which covered the build of a 304 engine and some of the mods needed to get the power level up.

As for machining, the technical portion of power adding machine work will be the art and science of porting and valve pocket work. Otherwise the machining should be confined to only doing what is necessary. For example, align boring, and deck machining should only be done as required.

A better definition of what you intend the engine to do will help your engine builder give guidance. Getting as much power as possible with epoxy ports and Block-Hard cylinder walls is different from having a reliable engine to drive to the local Big-Boy drive-in eatery.

JSeery · 12-05-2016, 05:36 AM

Sorry JWL, guess I didn't word that very well! BIG fan of your work!!!

Bored&Stroked · 12-05-2016, 06:25 AM

Welcome to the Ford Barn! Give us a bit more information on the overall build, type of car, transmission, rear end gears, typical usage --> street and cruise and whether you're planning long or short trips. Another consideration is your own personal level of knowledge about high-performance engines and if you have the tools, time and expertise to put it together. Do you have the time and inclination to learn all the nuances of flatheads and sift through the books, posts and opinions to select the ones that are the best for your situation? (Cause there are a lot - just on this site).

Things to think about: Do you have the necessary micrometers, bore gauges, ring expanders/compressors, rod vise and other such tools (and the knowledge to use them) to check the work of the machine shop and ensure that everything is correct (all main/rod/cam bearing and thrust clearances), etc? If you don't have all the tools and knowledge - and have never put a performance flathead together, then I highly recommend that you find somebody who does and work WITH THEM on your first engine.

Machine Shop Selection: The most important criteria is do they have extensive experience with Flathead Fords and do they have the equipment to do Flathead Ford work correctly? The valve train area is where I've seen the most mistakes - as many shops don't have the correct mandrels, knowledge and or machines (you can't throw a flathead block in the typical 'OHV head machine center' that everybody has). Another area is related to balancing the reciprocating assembly - as how you balance Flathead Rods is not the same as modern engines (where they have balance pads).

Performance Porting and Relieving Work: This is the most complex and problem prone area of a big cubic inch build. Having 304 cubic inches of flow trying to get through a stock block is kind of a waste in my mind. There are not that many shops that know anything about porting a flathead block - and there is a LOT to know. If you're serious about power, then port/bowl work, valve selection and head/chamber work can and should come into play. Consider whether you want to go down this path on your first build? There are plenty of ways to ruin a good flathead block with a porting tool being used by inexperienced hands.

In the end, you'll have three times the time and money you'd spend for a modern small block Chevy or Ford - but that is not the point. The point is that you want to ensure that with that money spent, that you achieve a great final result.

With all this said, I think it could be a great project for you and your son! I'm not trying to discourage you in any way . . . more along the line of making sure you're prepared, honest with yourself and have the biggest chances for success. There will be drama along the way - take your time, ask a lot of questions and you will get through it.

You've come to the right place for knowledge and help - use it the best you can and put the work in on your side . . . and you'll be just fine.

Good Luck!
B&S

GOSFAST · 12-05-2016, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flathead-Arm

I'm in the planning stages of building a flathead for a Model A hot rod. Don't know much about them (which is why I decided to go this route). From my research, it seems it best to go with a late 8ba. Since everything will be replaced, with performance products, it doesn't really matter whether to go with Ford or Mercury.
I'm looking to get as much hp as possible being normally aspirated. So I'm going for the Scat 304 kit.
One question I do have is the publications. I see a lot of books out there on the flatheads but I don't wanna buy them all. What's the common census on the best rebuild/modification book?

Thanks

Hi (first name), just a couple questions and a few recommendations.

Do you have a "targeted" HP number?
Do you have a "targeted" budget?

1-I would most definitely avoid the Scat line of cranks but do use their conn rods. Eagles balance-up much easier, have had issues with Scats entire line when balancing. Aviod the Eagle conn rods however, they're a tough fit! For these reasons we put together our own kits.

2-I would stay at the 3.312" bore x 4.250" stroke, no larger, not really that necessary and risk having extra "thin" cylinder walls.

3-I would pin the heads and gaskets to the blocks with some .312" SBC dowel pins, extends head gasket life.

4-Modify the oiling system for full-filtering.

5-Drill the lifter bores to help with adjusting the lifters.

6-Try to find a shop that uses a block-plate for finish honing the bores.

7- If you're "chasing" HP I would use ONLY a metric (1.5, 1.5, 3.0) ring pack, these are available from Ross pistons. There are now new pistons available from Icon, also nice pieces but use a 1/16" x 3/16" ring pack. The metrics would be first choice for power.

8-Many other options, some we like: stainless valves, bronze-lined guides/Viton intake valve stem seals, "original" OEM Johnson adjustable tappets, Fel-Pro gaskets, Neoprene 1 pc front seal, aluminum heads (most times Edelbrock or Offy's). I would use Isky's valve springs on this type build.

9-One of the most important recommendations (here anyway) have it dynoed, it could avoid many headaches for you in the future, plus the "moly" rings will be seated by the time the testing is finished. We will no longer assemble any Flatheads without dynoing it, we still do a few with the machining only where the customer walks out with the pieces and does the final assembly himself, but we don't recommend this method.

10-Pre-assemble/check the valves and springs/spring heights to make certain there will be no issues there later. This is an important area to know about well ahead of time.

Would also use some ARP main studs & head studs to hold it all together!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. With many of the builds we've done (dynoed) with a sort of "limited" budget, we find 150/160 HP and 250#/260# Torque to be some nominal numbers. The pistons/rings are a huge factor in freeing up some HP. The ride in my signature has over 30,000 trouble-free miles on now. Dynoed at 155 HP and 264# Torque, this ride must be close to 4000# driving??

Flathead-Arm · 12-05-2016, 08:53 AM

Thanks for all the replies. Let me try and answer some questions....

Little about myself: I'm an ex-racer, I'm in Orlando, FL. I used to build and race Porsches, both 911s and 944s. I was/am always a little skeptical about having others work on my cars. So I like to do as much as I can. So I built my own cars. The only thing I would leave to others would be the rollcage and machine work on the engines.

First off, I'm getting all my numbers and plans from researching, this and many other forums. It's my understanding with the package I'll specify below, I should get 250-275 hp. Which is not what I'm focused on. I'm just looking for a good cruising ride that I can take my wife out on a Sat night. But I'm not looking for a dog either.
So my original build plan, goes like this:

Enigine:

Ford 8ba
Scat 304ci rotating assembly
Isky Cam: can't decide on the 400 or 88 (opinions are welcomed)
Isky adjustable lifters
Valves: oversized stainless (could use some help here on the spec)
Isky dual valve springs
Eldelbrock 74cc heads
Eldelbrock intake with 3 carb assembly kit
MSD electronic distributor
Open Headers

Chassis/Drivetrain:

1929 Model A roadster(Brookville)
Chevy S10 T-5 trans
Ford 9in rear: either 373 or 411

Machine work:

bore the cylinders
deck the surface
hone the mains
enlarge the valves
new seats, 3 angle cut
relieve the valve to cylinder passage
relieve the lifter, for easier adj
port and polish valve ports (I can do this, but even I know when to let an expert with experience do his thing.)
create in/out passage for external oil filter.
I was planning on having Harold "Putt" Smith in GA do my machine work. He seems to be the best around the Southeast region.

Thanks,
Armando

19Fordy · 12-05-2016, 09:24 AM

Just build a mild 276 cu.in. engine and it will give you plenty of zip plus nice highway cruising. 9 inch is overkill. Go with an 8 inch and 3:50 gears. The more radical you make your engine the less "roadable" it becomes, the more heat it generates and the more difficult it will be to have it run cool, especially in the FL heat.

flatjack9 · 12-05-2016, 09:48 AM

I think 250 - 275 hp is a wee bit optimistic.

Ol' Ron · 12-05-2016, 09:54 AM

Yes, welcome to the barn. Looking through your list of modifications, I'd say you have a oood Bivliie engine there. I don't understand the 304 ci That will reduce reliability some, especially if it lives long enough to get rebuilt. The two cams are as different as night and day. The 400jr is a great short track cam and the 88 is a mild street cam. Dual valve springs will destroy most cams and is only necessary when turning hi RPM's. The S-10 has very poor gear ratios and the 9" is overkill., Especially when it comes to ride quality. Last but not least, tuning this beast to drive to the grocery store is a bitch. Find some local flathead guys and look over their equipment, ask questions and take a ride. Keep in mind, getting over150/175 HP is not easy or cheap with out a blower.

Flathead-Arm · 12-05-2016, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Just build a mild 276 cu.in. engine and it will give you plenty of zip plus nice highway cruising. 9 inch is overkill. Go with an 8 inch and 3:50 gears. The more radical you make your engine the less "roadable" it becomes, the more heat it generates and the more difficult it will be to have it run cool, especially in the FL heat.

Brookville kit already comes with the 9".
3:50 seems a little high. How about 3:73 with the 5spd?

19Fordy · 12-05-2016, 10:14 AM

Slow down, close your wallet and really do your homework before you start buying parts. Building an all out flatty is very expensive. As Ron (above) suggested high horsepower flatheads are not functional for daily drivers. Listen to the advice of Fordbarners who have been building engines for years. It would be a shame to spend really big money to build an engine that looks pretty, sounds awesome but is a "furnace", hard to tune and not usable on a daily basis.

9 inchers are heavy, big and bulky and look out of place on a small hot rod. Tell Brookville you want an 8 inch, but do your homework first. It's so easy to get caught up in the mystic of what you read in the hot rod magazines where you see deep pocket folks building Model A's with 9 inch rears and quick change rears only for the "cool" factor.

For instance, there are several types of T5's with final OD ratios.
http://www.inliners.org/Jack/t5_page.html

Multiply your final OD ratio by your rear end gear ratio and you will get the final highway drive ratio. Example: 3.50x.76=2.66 for highway cruising. 3.73 x .76 =2.83 final drive. Then consider tire size and how that will affect the final drive. http://www.southwestpowersports.com/GEARCHANGE.HTML

Flat Ernie (Fordbarner) is an expert on T5's. There are different types of T-5's. Some are better than others. "World Class" comes to mind.
http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/all-...rld-class.html
Contact Flat Ernie and read post #8 here.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...=flat+ernie+t5

Tim Ayers · 12-05-2016, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 19Fordy

Slow down and really do your homework before you start buying parts. For instance, there are several types of T5's with final OD ratios.
http://www.inliners.org/Jack/t5_page.html

Multiply your final OD ratio by your rear end gear ratio and you will get the final highway drive ratio. Example: 3.50x.76=2.66 for highway cruising. Then consider tire size and how that will affect the final drive.

Flat Ernie (Fordbarner) is an expert on T5's. Contact him.
https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...=flat+ernie+t5

Wonderful advice. As 'Ol Ron mentioned, you really need to do some homework. The cams you are picking are as different as night and day and neither needs dual springs.

I know it's hard not to get excited about a build, but before you get too deep in time, materials and money, as everyone has stated, come up with a plan and budget to do what you want.

I think you are aiming a bit high for your HP goal, but I guess it can be done if you have enough money to sink into the project.

Flathead-Arm · 12-05-2016, 10:58 AM

I've been researching for about a month (this post is part of the research/homework).

This is the first time I heard that the S10 is a poor choice. http://www.flatheadv8.org/t5-swap.htm

If my build is too radical/unreliable, what would be a more reliable build? A 286?

12-04-2016, 07:39 PM	#1
Flathead-Arm Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 15	First Flathead build- need guideness I'm in the planning stages of building a flathead for a Model A hot rod. Don't know much about them (which is why I decided to go this route). From my research, it seems it best to go with a late 8ba. Since everything will be replaced, with performance products, it doesn't really matter whether to go with Ford or Mercury. I'm looking to get as much hp as possible being normally aspirated. So I'm going for the Scat 304 kit. One question I do have is the publications. I see a lot of books out there on the flatheads but I don't wanna buy them all. What's the common census on the best rebuild/modification book? Thanks

12-04-2016, 07:44 PM	#2
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,527	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness John Lawson's book, "Flathead Facts" is a must read.

12-04-2016, 07:56 PM	#3
Flathead-Arm Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 15	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness Thanks I'll look it up. My plan is to be able to take it to a machine shop (probably Harold "Putt") tell him what machine work I want done to it. Then take it home and assemble it myself (with my 16yr old). Is there a list of typical performance machine work that's done to these engines?

12-04-2016, 08:18 PM	#4
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness It is a very informative book, but it relates to testing various bolt-on items on a relatively stock block/engine.

12-05-2016, 02:08 AM	#7
Mike in AZ Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Waddell, AZ Posts: 2,540	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness welcome to the 'Barn.....where are you located?...barnes and noble sometimes have flathead books on the shelves...might browse them before you buy....Frank Oddo's book is pretty good.....Vern Tardel wrote a book on the A-V8.....good luck and post some pics if you have 'em...Mike

12-05-2016, 02:38 AM	#8
Paul Bennett Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 628	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness It wouldn't hurt to check your local library first. It sucks to buy a book only to find it doesn't suit your needs, and having 'Flathead' in the title means little. Best to turn the pages before you lay out a 20.

12-05-2016, 05:10 AM	#9
JWL Member Emeritus Join Date: May 2010 Location: Fitzgerald, Georgia Posts: 2,204	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness I'm sorry J Seery missed reading the half of my book, Flathead Facts, which covered the build of a 304 engine and some of the mods needed to get the power level up. As for machining, the technical portion of power adding machine work will be the art and science of porting and valve pocket work. Otherwise the machining should be confined to only doing what is necessary. For example, align boring, and deck machining should only be done as required. A better definition of what you intend the engine to do will help your engine builder give guidance. Getting as much power as possible with epoxy ports and Block-Hard cylinder walls is different from having a reliable engine to drive to the local Big-Boy drive-in eatery.

12-05-2016, 05:36 AM	#10
JSeery Member Emeritus Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Wichita KS Posts: 16,132	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness Sorry JWL, guess I didn't word that very well! BIG fan of your work!!!

12-05-2016, 06:25 AM	#11
Bored&Stroked Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 5,067	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness Welcome to the Ford Barn! Give us a bit more information on the overall build, type of car, transmission, rear end gears, typical usage --> street and cruise and whether you're planning long or short trips. Another consideration is your own personal level of knowledge about high-performance engines and if you have the tools, time and expertise to put it together. Do you have the time and inclination to learn all the nuances of flatheads and sift through the books, posts and opinions to select the ones that are the best for your situation? (Cause there are a lot - just on this site). Things to think about: Do you have the necessary micrometers, bore gauges, ring expanders/compressors, rod vise and other such tools (and the knowledge to use them) to check the work of the machine shop and ensure that everything is correct (all main/rod/cam bearing and thrust clearances), etc? If you don't have all the tools and knowledge - and have never put a performance flathead together, then I highly recommend that you find somebody who does and work WITH THEM on your first engine. Machine Shop Selection: The most important criteria is do they have extensive experience with Flathead Fords and do they have the equipment to do Flathead Ford work correctly? The valve train area is where I've seen the most mistakes - as many shops don't have the correct mandrels, knowledge and or machines (you can't throw a flathead block in the typical 'OHV head machine center' that everybody has). Another area is related to balancing the reciprocating assembly - as how you balance Flathead Rods is not the same as modern engines (where they have balance pads). Performance Porting and Relieving Work: This is the most complex and problem prone area of a big cubic inch build. Having 304 cubic inches of flow trying to get through a stock block is kind of a waste in my mind. There are not that many shops that know anything about porting a flathead block - and there is a LOT to know. If you're serious about power, then port/bowl work, valve selection and head/chamber work can and should come into play. Consider whether you want to go down this path on your first build? There are plenty of ways to ruin a good flathead block with a porting tool being used by inexperienced hands. In the end, you'll have three times the time and money you'd spend for a modern small block Chevy or Ford - but that is not the point. The point is that you want to ensure that with that money spent, that you achieve a great final result. With all this said, I think it could be a great project for you and your son! I'm not trying to discourage you in any way . . . more along the line of making sure you're prepared, honest with yourself and have the biggest chances for success. There will be drama along the way - take your time, ask a lot of questions and you will get through it. You've come to the right place for knowledge and help - use it the best you can and put the work in on your side . . . and you'll be just fine. Good Luck! B&S

12-05-2016, 08:53 AM	#13
Flathead-Arm Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 15	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness Thanks for all the replies. Let me try and answer some questions.... Little about myself: I'm an ex-racer, I'm in Orlando, FL. I used to build and race Porsches, both 911s and 944s. I was/am always a little skeptical about having others work on my cars. So I like to do as much as I can. So I built my own cars. The only thing I would leave to others would be the rollcage and machine work on the engines. First off, I'm getting all my numbers and plans from researching, this and many other forums. It's my understanding with the package I'll specify below, I should get 250-275 hp. Which is not what I'm focused on. I'm just looking for a good cruising ride that I can take my wife out on a Sat night. But I'm not looking for a dog either. So my original build plan, goes like this: Enigine: Ford 8ba Scat 304ci rotating assembly Isky Cam: can't decide on the 400 or 88 (opinions are welcomed) Isky adjustable lifters Valves: oversized stainless (could use some help here on the spec) Isky dual valve springs Eldelbrock 74cc heads Eldelbrock intake with 3 carb assembly kit MSD electronic distributor Open Headers Chassis/Drivetrain: 1929 Model A roadster(Brookville) Chevy S10 T-5 trans Ford 9in rear: either 373 or 411 Machine work: bore the cylinders deck the surface hone the mains enlarge the valves new seats, 3 angle cut relieve the valve to cylinder passage relieve the lifter, for easier adj port and polish valve ports (I can do this, but even I know when to let an expert with experience do his thing.) create in/out passage for external oil filter. I was planning on having Harold "Putt" Smith in GA do my machine work. He seems to be the best around the Southeast region. Thanks, Armando

12-05-2016, 09:24 AM	#14
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,944	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness Just build a mild 276 cu.in. engine and it will give you plenty of zip plus nice highway cruising. 9 inch is overkill. Go with an 8 inch and 3:50 gears. The more radical you make your engine the less "roadable" it becomes, the more heat it generates and the more difficult it will be to have it run cool, especially in the FL heat.

12-05-2016, 09:48 AM	#15
flatjack9 Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Oshkosh, Wi Posts: 4,527	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness I think 250 - 275 hp is a wee bit optimistic.

12-05-2016, 09:54 AM	#16
Ol' Ron Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Chester Vt Posts: 8,860	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness Yes, welcome to the barn. Looking through your list of modifications, I'd say you have a oood Bivliie engine there. I don't understand the 304 ci That will reduce reliability some, especially if it lives long enough to get rebuilt. The two cams are as different as night and day. The 400jr is a great short track cam and the 88 is a mild street cam. Dual valve springs will destroy most cams and is only necessary when turning hi RPM's. The S-10 has very poor gear ratios and the 9" is overkill., Especially when it comes to ride quality. Last but not least, tuning this beast to drive to the grocery store is a bitch. Find some local flathead guys and look over their equipment, ask questions and take a ride. Keep in mind, getting over150/175 HP is not easy or cheap with out a blower.

12-05-2016, 10:14 AM	#18
19Fordy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Coral Springs FL Posts: 10,944	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness Slow down, close your wallet and really do your homework before you start buying parts. Building an all out flatty is very expensive. As Ron (above) suggested high horsepower flatheads are not functional for daily drivers. Listen to the advice of Fordbarners who have been building engines for years. It would be a shame to spend really big money to build an engine that looks pretty, sounds awesome but is a "furnace", hard to tune and not usable on a daily basis. 9 inchers are heavy, big and bulky and look out of place on a small hot rod. Tell Brookville you want an 8 inch, but do your homework first. It's so easy to get caught up in the mystic of what you read in the hot rod magazines where you see deep pocket folks building Model A's with 9 inch rears and quick change rears only for the "cool" factor. For instance, there are several types of T5's with final OD ratios. http://www.inliners.org/Jack/t5_page.html Multiply your final OD ratio by your rear end gear ratio and you will get the final highway drive ratio. Example: 3.50x.76=2.66 for highway cruising. 3.73 x .76 =2.83 final drive. Then consider tire size and how that will affect the final drive. http://www.southwestpowersports.com/GEARCHANGE.HTML Flat Ernie (Fordbarner) is an expert on T5's. There are different types of T-5's. Some are better than others. "World Class" comes to mind. http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/all-...rld-class.html Contact Flat Ernie and read post #8 here. https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showth...=flat+ernie+t5 Last edited by 19Fordy; 12-05-2016 at 10:51 AM.

12-05-2016, 10:58 AM	#20
Flathead-Arm Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 15	Re: First Flathead build- need guideness I've been researching for about a month (this post is part of the research/homework). This is the first time I heard that the S10 is a poor choice. http://www.flatheadv8.org/t5-swap.htm If my build is too radical/unreliable, what would be a more reliable build? A 286?