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Old 09-13-2014, 07:47 PM   #161
OLD...BILL
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

The guy grinding the crank, should be the one to order the bearings , and I would sure be talking to him or someone about line boring the mains, is this the same block and a different crank, or same re-ground I've lost track ?? and from the looks of the flywheel I would be looking at the pilot bearing again?? something to thing about..... OLD.....BILL
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Old 09-13-2014, 08:14 PM   #162
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Originally Posted by OLD...BILL View Post
The guy grinding the crank, should be the one to order the bearings , and I would sure be talking to him or someone about line boring the mains, is this the same block and a different crank, or same re-ground I've lost track ?? and from the looks of the flywheel I would be looking at the pilot bearing again?? something to thing about..... OLD.....BILL
Don't know what "line boring the mains" means. Hopefully Paul knows.
The crank going back in is the original that came with the engine when it was new and has never been ground. The pilot bearing in the flywheel is a ball bearing, not just a sleeve/bushing. Wouldn't hurt to replace it if I can find one. The ones I've found are just the sleeve/bushing kind.
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Old 09-13-2014, 08:52 PM   #163
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Line boring is done to to true the surface that travel in a line. Like the crank or the cam. Fairly common practice and is certainly necessary for a basic rebuild.

Replace the pilot bearing if necessary, hey it's there and a cheap part, that flywheel is spent for the kind of driving you do.

Looks like it is going in the right direction. But what do I know and it's just my opinion
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Old 09-14-2014, 07:37 AM   #164
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Originally Posted by Old Henry View Post
Don't know what "line boring the mains" means. Hopefully Paul knows.
The crank going back in is the original that came with the engine when it was new and has never been ground. The pilot bearing in the flywheel is a ball bearing, not just a sleeve/bushing. Wouldn't hurt to replace it if I can find one. The ones I've found are just the sleeve/bushing kind.
Within your response is at least one huge clue as to why your engine came apart. You'd told us in the past this particular engine was "rebuilt" twice. You've also been proud (rightly so) to inform us that you've driven a kajillion miles on it.
Now you tell us the crank has never been ground? Um Henry, that engine was NEVER rebuilt. Installing new bearings against an old crank is a certain recipe for disaster. I can only imagine what else was "rebuilt" in such poor fashion.
The fact you got as many miles out of that engine was a true blessing.

I am happy to know you have finally decided to take this engine to a guy that apparently actually knows what he is doing.
Line boring may not be necessary as these old Ford flat head engines can handle a lot of punishment. However, it is certainly something I'd check during the preliminary inspection. Not only does it assure the crank and cam are running on a single TRUE plane, it should also make that plane perpendicular to the lifter & piston bores.
I can almost guarantee the rods will need to be reconditioned. If they are still round, well, it would be a miracle.
As others have advised, be 100% certain that block is thoroughly cleaned prior to reassembly. A true rebuilder will know this and make certain cleanliness is paramount. It is perhaps as important (or nearly so) as measuring ACCURATELY and fitting parts CORRECTLY.
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Old 09-14-2014, 10:08 AM   #165
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Within your response is at least one huge clue as to why your engine came apart. You'd told us in the past this particular engine was "rebuilt" twice. You've also been proud (rightly so) to inform us that you've driven a kajillion miles on it.
Now you tell us the crank has never been ground? Um Henry, that engine was NEVER rebuilt. Installing new bearings against an old crank is a certain recipe for disaster. I can only imagine what else was "rebuilt" in such poor fashion......
From Post #110 by Old Henry:

Quote:
Paul took the whole crankshaft out to check it for wear. It turns out that the bearing surfaces need turning again but if that is done bearings are no longer available to fit it. In other words, the crankshaft is worn out and shouldn't be used any more. That was the bad news.

The good news is that I still have the original crankshaft for that engine that has never been worked and has its original surfaces. Paul was a bit shocked when I brought it in. The surfaces measured 1 thousandth wear is all, plenty of surface to clean up and fit with new bearings for many more miles to come.
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Old 09-14-2014, 12:08 PM   #166
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I think the original (unground) crank that Craig is referring to was left out when the engine was first rebuilt.
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Old 09-14-2014, 01:45 PM   #167
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Just to clarify the history of my engine as I understand it as there seems to be some confusion or misunderstanding about it.

Car was bought in 1959 with unknown history and was driven only a mile or two a day until 1975 when I parked it by Mom's house where it sat for 31 years.

In 2006 I towed it to my house to begin a minimal restoration limited to getting it running, pass safety inspection and licensed, painted and reupholstered.

9 days later, after only changing the oil, replacing the battery and cables and starter solenoid and putting an acceleration pump in the carburetor we started it up and drove it for 10,000 miles before having it rebuilt in October 2009. (Here's the movie of starting it up that has had just short of one million views on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wY389S_KUjs)

When the rebuilder opened up the engine he found everything original except a couple of valves that had been replaced. The bearings had the original date of manufacture on them - August 1947. The crank pulley was loose on the front end of the crank so he decided to replace the crank with another used one that he machined and replaced all bearings when rebuilding (I still have those original bearings and crank). He also informed me that I had been running the battery hooked up backwards (I wondered why my ammeter read backwards) and that my carburetor was not the original for the engine as it was a Stomberg 97 last used in 1937.

He machined all surfaces and replaced all pistons, rings, bearings, valves, and I don't know what else as well as rebuilding the transmission and drive-line.

I kept everything that came out of the engine as I've saved everything that's ever come off of the car for historical purposes.

In May 2013, after driving 30,000 miles the #3 piston came apart. (Story here: https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104413) I took it back to the same builder who redid the whole top end including sleeving piston #3 and boring all pistons out to a larger size so he could put in all new larger pistons. He also replaced the valves and split valve guides with later solid ones. I don't know that he did anything with the bottom end as far as remachining any bearing surfaces nor replacing bearings. I'm pretty sure that he didn't since they were all still OK.

The rest of the story is this thread with the bearing problem now after another 20,000 miles, total of 50,000 since first rebuild.

Hope this helps resolve some confusion.
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Last edited by Old Henry; 09-14-2014 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 09-14-2014, 02:55 PM   #168
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Another thing to add to Kube's 'list'... I've never found in all of Craig's posts that the engine was ever balanced. I can't imagine, the way he drives it, WHY? Especially when it's considered that the crank came from one source, the rods source not mentioned, and the pistons changed at least twice. Maybe I missed this detail?? JMHO
(AND, I'm sure price is not an issue. I recently had a 59 engine balanced, and cost was insignificant, compared to the overall engine cost.) Again, JMHO
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Old 09-14-2014, 03:15 PM   #169
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I had my rotating assy balanced and they ruined everything. I had the repacement parts balanced also. The guy wanted to balance the rods by adding washers. I recovered the parts and went to a third place. The engine is not as smooth as my unbalanced one. These engines do not turn ten grand and the factory balance is great. The only thing I would do is check the rods and match the weights if way off. Buy a digital scale at HF and weigh the rods and pistons yourself.
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Old 09-14-2014, 03:40 PM   #170
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Another thing to add to Kube's 'list'... I've never found in all of Craig's posts that the engine was ever balanced. I can't imagine, the way he drives it, WHY? Especially when it's considered that the crank came from one source, the rods source not mentioned, and the pistons changed at least twice. Maybe I missed this detail?? JMHO
(AND, I'm sure price is not an issue. I recently had a 59 engine balanced, and cost was insignificant, compared to the overall engine cost.) Again, JMHO
Balancing should at the very least be checked to see if it is necessary. Ford did a pretty darn good job on these engines when they were first assembled. the problem is most engines have had at least some work done on them since "day #1".
If I understand henry's post correctly, one cylinder was sleeved and the remaining seven were bored. Anyone that has good experience building engines knows this is a big no-no.
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Old 09-14-2014, 03:41 PM   #171
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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I had my rotating assy balanced and they ruined everything. I had the repacement parts balanced also. The guy wanted to balance the rods by adding washers. I recovered the parts and went to a third place. The engine is not as smooth as my unbalanced one. These engines do not turn ten grand and the factory balance is great. The only thing I would do is check the rods and match the weights if way off. Buy a digital scale at HF and weigh the rods and pistons yourself.
Andy, If they ruined everything, it is apparent they did not know what they were doing.
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Old 09-14-2014, 03:52 PM   #172
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Originally Posted by Kube View Post
Balancing should at the very least be checked to see if it is necessary. Ford did a pretty darn good job on these engines when they were first assembled. the problem is most engines have had at least some work done on them since "day #1".
If I understand henry's post correctly, one cylinder was sleeved and the remaining seven were bored. Anyone that has good experience building engines knows this is a big no-no.
What is not good with one sleeve?

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Old 09-14-2014, 04:39 PM   #173
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I'm not sure exactly how it works but the same size of pistons went into all cylinders so I'm assuming that the one that needed the sleeve was bored slightly larger to fit the sleeve in. No problems now for 20,000 miles so far.
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Old 09-14-2014, 06:15 PM   #174
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kube View Post
Balancing should at the very least be checked to see if it is necessary. Ford did a pretty darn good job on these engines when they were first assembled. the problem is most engines have had at least some work done on them since "day #1".
If I understand henry's post correctly, one cylinder was sleeved and the remaining seven were bored. Anyone that has good experience building engines knows this is a big no-no.
Back in the 'day', I did some checking on at least two flatheads that I had. I used the 'thread' method to check 'big-ends', then 'total'. Pistons were matched to 'originals', as I have never found what stock was, for 46-48 59 engines. This seemed to work ok, for the street engines that they were. If there is a published number for 46-48 pistons, I'd like to know it.
Regarding sleeves... sometimes you just 'have to'. Seems to me, a properly installed sleeve works ok in a street engine. On the flip side of this comment, I've seen a few examples of sleeves not done correctly. Old posts on this board have explained properly installed sleeves. One example of 'bad' sleeves, I posted awhile back about an 8BA engine that appeared to have been assembled with a near-standard piston in what appeared to be a 3 3/8 bore. And, it came in as a running engine. It turned out, after disassembly, it was found that cylinder HAD a sleeve, and the remains of that sleeve were in pieces in the pan. Situations as this give a bad name to sleeves.
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Old 09-14-2014, 07:06 PM   #175
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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I'm not sure exactly how it works but the same size of pistons went into all cylinders so I'm assuming that the one that needed the sleeve was bored slightly larger to fit the sleeve in. No problems now for 20,000 miles so far.
If he bored that sleeved cylinder to match the others, that's a good thing.
I have seen engines wherein only one or two cylinders were sleeved and the bore(s) were not matched to the others.
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Old 09-14-2014, 07:07 PM   #176
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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What is not good with one sleeve?

R
Not a thing as long as ALL the bores are of the same diameter.
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Old 09-14-2014, 07:50 PM   #177
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

I agree Henry's post is quite vague. I have done many sleeves and couldn't see your rational. Yes they should all have the same finished bore size.Your statement holds true if the bores differ.Can be done but is a non acceptable repair scheme.

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Old 09-15-2014, 12:52 AM   #178
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

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Not a thing as long as ALL the bores are of the same diameter.
I might be off base, but who would take and engine in to get rebuilt, and be told:

We need to sleeve a hole"

Okay...

Then the shop would order 7 pistons at ones size, and one at another?

Have you actually seen this?...I'd be extremely surprised...again...talking shop work, not when Bubba took it in and used what he had.

And realistically, what would a 1/2 cube of inches, and .01 of compression, affect the performance of an engine like a FH V8?

My personal opinion, is if I had a 60 over block and a standard sleeve size in a hole,,,no one could tell a bit of difference in a street build.
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Old 09-15-2014, 04:48 AM   #179
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

My take on this is that if different sized pistons are used the engine will be out of balance.
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Old 09-15-2014, 06:44 AM   #180
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Default Re: Tell me this noise isn't what I'm afraid it is.

It used to be common to find a tagged remanufactured engine with different size bores. If H's engine had one bore sleaved then I would guess the bad piston or a piston pin cut into the cyl wall on thay cyl. I have never seen so called cadium bearings break apart like his did, what I have seen is a lot of wear an a spray of molten metal on the crank and block sides.
The bronze inserts would wear and turn a crank blue from heat. For those that do not know, there were two types of full floating bearings for flathead v8s, one was a soft material commonly called cadium silver and the other was a harder material that appeared to be bronze.
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