Need help with motor ID- can you tell me what this motor is???

[phartman]

The motor has 21-stud heads with Ford script. The bellhousing is cast into the block (all one piece). The water outlet for the heads is in the center, and the heads are marked 77-6050-A. The number on the back of the bellhousing is G157 with a 17 underneath.

Anybody have any idea what this motor came out of? I'm on the VanPelt engine ID page and I don't see any reference to these numbers.

Thanks, guys.

Pete

[Bruce Lancaster]

Engine is type used throughout 1937, partial production 1938. In USA, that's whole production use period.
77 heads are iron truckheads, BUT mean little because those were used to replace many passenger aluminum heads that corroded badly.
Engine can also be dressed with 1932-6 heads and pumps and made to look almost right in the early cars. Overseas...that basic engine was produced into the 1950's in England and vast numbers were used in WWII.

[phartman]

Bruce, others, do I understand correctly that the number on the bellhousing is a transmission number and NOT an engine ID #?

[Bruce Lancaster]

Cast on numbers back there are some form of unknown foundry markings...engine would normally NOT have a serial, the serial was for the whole power unit and was stamped on the transmission part of the bell, not the part on block. That number was copied onto frame at assembly plant and became car serial number...the numbers were simply sequential in the engine family; all 221 got "18" prefixed numbers in a series that started at "1" in 1932 and continued through many millions until that series ended. You can tell year from the sequence, but your engine was only used in production in USA Ford for one full model year and part of the next, so there's not much to deduce from serial.

[jimTN]

21 stud engines are 3 3/4" stroke by 3 1/16" bore. All had the cast back end where the trans attached. 32thru36 did not have provision for water pumps in the block so they pumps were in the heads. The later 21 stud engines had waterpumps in the blocks and upper water outlets in the center of the heads. Those engines were often used as replacements for the earlier engines by blocking off the water pump holes in the block with a plate and using earlier heads.

[bobH]

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Several folks have posted the various identifying features of 21 stud engines. Charlie Stephens used to occasionally post a good description.
Here are a couple features to help identify.... 37/38, provision for water pump is on the block. If installed in an earlier chassis, or if it has front-outlet heads, it will have block-off plates over the water-pump holes (block-off plates were/are a Ford part).
(In a 37/38 chassis, of course the water pumps are on the block.)
There is a 36 LB, 21 stud, and has large main bearings identical to 37/38. No water-pump provision at front of block. As far as Iim aware, Only way to know an LB for sure, look at the main bearings. This one has been discussed many times on this forum.
There is a 35/36, 21 stud, identified with poured babbit main bearings, smaller mains than 36LB,37,38, and these 35/36 have a crankcase vent at the RF of the block, where the pan meets the rail.
The 33/34 is similar to 35/36, except NO cc vent at RF of block.
The 32's are out of my area of really knowing, except that they have the water-outlet's pointing straight down (as opposed to 33-up with water outlets 'angled' outward). Others will no doubt post more identifying features....
JMO

[phartman]

Thanks, guys.

Would somebody have a pic of the blockoff plates that are referred to frequently so that the '37-'38 blocks can be used with the earlier heads? I've looked at numerous places, but have never seen a picture of what these waterpump blockoff plates look like.

Again, many thanks.

Pete

[DavidG]

Bruce,

Only early '37 passenger car engines had aluminum cylinder heads. The vast majority of '37 car engines were built with cast iron heads.

Dave

[phartman]

Originally Posted by DavidG

Bruce,

Only early '37 passenger car engines had aluminum cylinder heads. The vast majority of '37 car engines were built with cast iron heads.

Dave

Dave, did those '37 heads have the center water outlet, or were they a continuation of the '36LB head/waterpump configuration???

[bobH]

"Would somebody have a pic of the blockoff plates that are referred to frequently so that the '37-'38 blocks can be used with the earlier heads? I've looked at numerous places, but have never seen a picture of what these waterpump blockoff plates look like. "

I don't have a pict, but can say they look an awful lot like an exhaust head-pipe block-off plate. Originals are pretty thick, maybe 5/16 or 3/8. Sometimes you can find them on ebay, for a picture. Also, sometimes there is a guy that reproduces them, that is on ebay. His are very thin, and he advertises them as such....
Personally, I wouldn't use the thin, repro, sheetmetal versions.
The Ford part number, listed in the 'green' book, is 78-8528, called a Cover, and note says "(cylinder block water pump hole) - used to cover water pump hole on engines having water pumps attached to cyl heads."
BTW, 37's are supposed to have center-outlet heads, as you will see that block-mounted water pumps are listed as for 37-up (48). No promises on this comment, as you probably know, Ford did lots that is not mentioned in the parts books...

[phartman]

Bob, thanks. I've been looking on Ebay and everywhere else for the blockoff cover, but still haven't seen one. I can't believe it's that tough to fab one. Couldn't I just trace the water passage and make the cover/plate??? What am I missing here?

Pete

[phartman]

Originally Posted by phartman

Dave, did those '37 heads have the center water outlet, or were they a continuation of the '36LB head/waterpump configuration???

Welp, I've answered my own question. Here's a pic of the ultra rare aluminum heads for the '37/38 21-stud.

[bobH]

Pete... You are not missing anything. You could fab one, much easier than looking for one if you don't have local sources. Just envision a 2-bolt header flange...
If you HAVE to have an original, you might try earlyfordstore.com, 909-305-1955

[Charlie Stephens]

Originally Posted by bobH

Several folks have posted the various identifying features of 21 stud engines. Charlie Stephens used to occasionally post a good description.
Here are a couple features to help identify.... 37/38, provision for water pump is on the block. If installed in an earlier chassis, or if it has front-outlet heads, it will have block-off plates over the water-pump holes (block-off plates were/are a Ford part).
(In a 37/38 chassis, of course the water pumps are on the block.)
There is a 36 LB, 21 stud, and has large main bearings identical to 37/38. No water-pump provision at front of block. As far as Iim aware, Only way to know an LB for sure, look at the main bearings. This one has been discussed many times on this forum.
There is a 35/36, 21 stud, identified with poured babbit main bearings, smaller mains than 36LB,37,38, and these 35/36 have a crankcase vent at the RF of the block, where the pan meets the rail.
The 33/34 is similar to 35/36, except NO cc vent at RF of block.
The 32's are out of my area of really knowing, except that they have the water-outlet's pointing straight down (as opposed to 33-up with water outlets 'angled' outward). Others will no doubt post more identifying features....
JMO

Here is my way of deciding the year of the engine (although it has already been nailed):

Identification of the early flatheads is best approached in terms of the block. There is an unbelievable amount of interchangeability for the accessories over the years. Count the number of head studs.
1) If there are 17 studs it is a V8 60 used in vehicles between 1937 and 1940. This engine was also used in the French built Simca in the sixties but I don’t know what occurred between these two periods. Look for casting numbers and stamped steel water jackets in the side of the block. Post what you find and someone can probably further identify the engine.
2) If there are 21 studs the block was built 1932 to 1938. The transition to 24 studs was late in 1938. Check the water petcocks on the front of the block next to where the lower hose from the radiator enters either an inlet fitting (1936 and earlier) or the water pump (1937 and later). It the petcocks point straight down it is a 1932 block. If the block is not a 1932 next look for a vent from the crankcase area out through the front corner of the oil pan. If there is no vent the block is 1933-34. If there is a vent it is 1935 or later. As a matter of interest, the 1936 engines were the first to use insert bearings. Both insert and babbitt bearings were used throughout 1936. The insert bearing engines can be identified by LB cast at the top of the left front face of the block or by the letters LB stamped into the surface where the intake manifold attaches. Some engines were not stamped and in other cases people tried to inflate the price of their blocks by stamping LB into them when they were sold. Be careful. Now check for the location of the water pumps. If the water pumps mount on the block the engine is 1937 or later. All engines beginning in 1937 were inserts. Frequently you will encounter a 1937 block with factory block off plates held on by two bolts over the water pump passage at the front of the block as it was common for Ford dealers to install this engine as a replacement in the earlier cars. Of course there will be slight transition periods at model change over with the older blocks usually going into the commercial vehicles. There may be subtle differences between the 1933-34 and the 1935-36 engines but I am knowledgeable enough about these years to know what they are. The casting numbers on the flywheel housing will also help identify the exact year of the engine. Post what you find and someone can probably further identify the engine.
3) If there are 24 studs the engine was produced between late 1938 and 1953 (1954 in Canada). If the distributor is mounted on the front of the block the engine is late 1938 through 1948 (1947 for trucks). If the distributor comes up at an angle and appears more like a modern distributor it is a 1949 (1948 for truck) through 1953 (1954 in Canada). The casting numbers on the flywheel housing will further identify the exact year of the engine. Post what you find and someone can probably further identify the engine.
4) There are a lot of additional foreign and industrial applications of these engines but the preceding covers the domestic US automobile production.

[Randy/In]

Here is a picture of a block off plate installed on a 1937 block.

[phartman]

Randy, many thanks. That looks simple enough to fabricate.

Pete