Wheel Nut

[Tom F OHIO]

I was helping my son do his front brakes. How tight is the nut suppose to
be when you put the hub back on. When we took off the cotter pin I could take it off by hand. That just doesnt seem right. We tighten up the nuts tighter and put the pins back in. Dont like the idea that a cotter pin is holding that wheel on and keeping that nut from coming off. I have my grandson, daughter-in-law, and son in that car and this concerns me. Any suggestions.
Tom....

[Patrick L.]

Millions and millions of vehicles have been built that way.. You grew up riding in many of them.. When putting everything back together and the bearings have been greased, tighten that nut fairly snug [technical term] while spinning the wheel, then, back the nut off 1 or maybe 2 notches and insert the cotter pin.. There is no pressure on that cotter pin, its just there to keep the nut from turning any more and there is no pressure on that nut either..

[Steve Wastler]

I useually do as above, but like to check drum for any wobble, and take it to where it just stops any noticeable wobble, takes a while to get the feel for it. You need a little room for the bearings to expand as they heat up. The cotter keeps the nut from turning off.

[glenn in camino]

I usually tighten mine down and then back off 2 notches. Then pull in and out on the drum. If I can hear it move, I tighten back one notch and install the cotter pin. Better a little loose than too tight.

[Clem Clement]

Supposedl the tire toe in keeps the load off the nut.
Clem

[ursus]

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My thought is that the forward rotation of the wheel make it unlikely that the nut will ever back off. That is, unless you're cruising in reverse more of the time.

[Tom Wesenberg]

Originally Posted by ursus

My thought is that the forward rotation of the wheel make it unlikely that the nut will ever back off. That is, unless you're cruising in reverse more of the time.

That might be OK for the passenger side, but think about the driver's side.

Not to worry, since the flat washer is keyed to the spindle, there is no rotational motion against the nut anyway, no matter which dirrection the wheel turns.

[1931 flamingo]

Ditto to posting # 2.
Paul in CT

[PC/SR]

First, when working on brakes, with the hubs off, always grease the bearings properly, with grease REALLY inside the case. You have to press it in by hand (thumb actually) unless you have a pressure greaser designed for the job, and light grease on the race it contacts. Grease the inside bearing too. Since that bearing cannot be easily removed, rub lots of grease on it and rotate the wheel a few times, grease and rotate it and grease and rotate it again and again and again until the there is plenty of grease all over.
When greased, tighten to wheel bind, then back off one notch on the nut. If the wheel still binds back off another notch and then tighten again and loosen again. It may take a couple of times. The object is to get the wheel to spin freely with "minimal" play, that is, slight, maybe 1/64th back and forth movement with your hands on the top and bottom of the tire. If you have to choose a notch between binding and play, choose the loose side for the cotter pin.
Taking the nut off by hand is too loose. It should be too tight to rotate by hand, but should come loose with very little wrench pressure. Don't worry about the cotter pin holding the wheel on as explained above.
My guess is that your bearings need grease at least. How long since they were greased or changed? One check for wear is if one end of the bearing has grease after rotation and the other does not, per the checks above, you need new bearings. That is an extreme case. Check how loose they are in the case. I don't know how to describe how much play is OK, but not "very much." Actually you should check this first before greasing. Grease hides the play. Soak them in gasoline or some cleaner to get the old hard grease out.
The bearing races, the part the bearings rub against, should be absolutely smooth and straight. If not they must be replaced.
The guys who do this everyday can give more definitive checks for too much wear.
As an aside, this sort of ties in with my pal Bill W's (whom I have never met) recent post about defining the problem, and focusing the response. I may be way off base here, since the post started out as a nut tightening inquiry, but it seems to me that the bearings are loose,or at least should be checked, Anyway, I hope it works out.

[Tom F OHIO]

Originally Posted by PC/SR

First, when working on brakes, with the hubs off, always grease the bearings properly, with grease REALLY inside the case. You have to press it in by hand (thumb actually) unless you have a pressure greaser designed for the job, and light grease on the race it contacts. Grease the inside bearing too. Since that bearing cannot be easily removed, rub lots of grease on it and rotate the wheel a few times, grease and rotate it and grease and rotate it again and again and again until the there is plenty of grease all over.
When greased, tighten to wheel bind, then back off one notch on the nut. If the wheel still binds back off another notch and then tighten again and loosen again. It may take a couple of times. The object is to get the wheel to spin freely with "minimal" play, that is, slight, maybe 1/64th back and forth movement with your hands on the top and bottom of the tire. If you have to choose a notch between binding and play, choose the loose side for the cotter pin.
Taking the nut off by hand is too loose. It should be too tight to rotate by hand, but should come loose with very little wrench pressure. Don't worry about the cotter pin holding the wheel on as explained above.
My guess is that your bearings need grease at least. How long since they were greased or changed? One check for wear is if one end of the bearing has grease after rotation and the other does not, per the checks above, you need new bearings. That is an extreme case. Check how loose they are in the case. I don't know how to describe how much play is OK, but not "very much." Actually you should check this first before greasing. Grease hides the play. Soak them in gasoline or some cleaner to get the old hard grease out.
The bearing races, the part the bearings rub against, should be absolutely smooth and straight. If not they must be replaced.
The guys who do this everyday can give more definitive checks for too much wear.
As an aside, this sort of ties in with my pal Bill W's (whom I have never met) recent post about defining the problem, and focusing the response. I may be way off base here, since the post started out as a nut tightening inquiry, but it seems to me that the bearings are loose,or at least should be checked, Anyway, I hope it works out.

I want to thank everyone for their responses. We did check the bearings all out and we did grease them very good. We'll pull the wheels off again and check the nut again now that I read all these post. Thanks again for all the response, as this makes me feel so much better.

[Franchise_24]

Originally Posted by Tom F OHIO

I want to thank everyone for their responses. We did check the bearings all out and we did grease them very good. We'll pull the wheels off again and check the nut again now that I read all these post. Thanks again for all the response, as this makes me feel so much better.

Yeah, makes me feel better too!

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

They've GOT to be pre-loaded to allow for seating in & from normal wear. Pre-loading keeps the races seated in properly so they don't wobble around & destroy the hubs!
You can't even maintain proper toe in with "loosey-goosey" bearings! Rule of thumb: Pre-load them about 8 to 10 Foot Pounds!! (That ain't much!) They MUST be pre-loaded, trust me, I ain't no rookie, and I do know what I'm spewing at you.
Bill W.

[Bob C]

The Service Bulletins (pg 238) say to tighten nut so there is no play in bearings, not over eight to ten pounds pressure on a speed wrench, then turn nut back two castle slots.

Bob

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Pre-load must be a precise adjustment, yes, using NUMBERS and a known amount of torque. Look up torque specs on some "modern" cars as many are the same design & similar sizes. SCARY when some say to back off 1 or 2 knotches!! I don't want to see you 'aside the road with a smokin' bearing, or in the OBITS, with a long lengthy story of your life! Bill W.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Bob C

The Service Bulletins (pg 238) say to tighten nut so there is no play in bearings, not over eight to ten pounds pressure on a speed wrench, then turn nut back two castle slots.

Bob

Bob,
A lot has been learned since those OLD bulletins were written. Bill W.

[Blessyouboys]

Originally Posted by BILL WILLIAMSON

They've GOT to be pre-loaded to allow for seating in & from normal wear. Pre-loading keeps the races seated in properly so they don't wobble around & destroy the hubs!
You can't even maintain proper toe in with "loosey-goosey" bearings! Rule of thumb: Pre-load them about 8 to 10 Foot Pounds!! (That ain't much!) They MUST be pre-loaded, trust me, I ain't no rookie, and I do know what I'm spewing at you.
Bill W.

I thought the races were pressed into the hub.

How can they wobble?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Originally Posted by Blessyouboys

I thought the races were pressed into the hub.

How can they wobble?

Blessyouboys,
How: Rollers NOT pre-loaded to maintain constant proper contact with the races & wobbling around with the weight of the car & sideways forces can possibly cause races to wobble around & wear out the hubs! Proper roller contact IS essential in keeping the grease circulating.
Bear with me & I'll slowly type this once more: Model A Timken bearings are the same design and similar size as many "modern" cars. Re-packed with a HIGH QUALITY, high temp disc brake grease & pre-loaded properly, will be good for up to 30,000 miles of trouble free service. That's equal to 5 round trips across our amazing country!!
Don't use some "CHEEPO" grease, insist on quality proven stuff, call some new car dealer & find out what they use. Don't risk gettin' some cheap s**t that might be made in CHINA from DUCK FAT & RICE FLOUR. (Sorry if I seem a little blunt, Pat's in her VERY last stages of shuttin' down for her GLORIOUS trip to be whole with Jesus & I'm a little out of whack.) Bill W.

[29ModelA]

A similar setup was on my wife's Ford Focus rear drums, the hub was part of the drum. A single nut held everything to the spindle just like the Model A. I went to do the rear brakes and there wasn't even a cotter key. There was supposed to be a locking bolt to hold that nut on, but apparently hers was built on a Friday and both sides got left off.

That car had 130,000 miles on it, and never had a locking nut/pin on the rear hubs, never had an issue.

[Bob C]

Bill, could you give some torque specs for a specific modern car? I looked up four more modern cars and could find nothing close to 8-10 FT LBS. They all said to tighten the nut 10 to 20 FT LBS while rotating the wheel then back off the nut. Chevy factory manual for 86 S-10 back off less than 1/2 flat on nut. Motors Manual for 81-83 Chrysler back off 1/4 turn, 77-83 Mustang 10-15 INCH Lbs. Chilton Manual 75-85 Buick back off 1/4 to 1/2 turn.

Bob

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Seems many mfgrs have their own, sometimes odd methods.
Worked on Jaguar many years, they specified 120 inch Lbs, or (10 ft lbs) then drop in the key.
Volvo for many years also, they said 60 ft lbs, back off 1 castellation & drop in the key. I never checked to see what pre-load that amounted to.
I always use 8 to 10 ft lbs & drop in the key.
Another tip, with a small screwdriver, I pop 1 roller out of the bearing out of the cage to inspct the race thouroughly, You can tap it back in with a little brass club! Bill W. (I'm very paranoid about wheel bearings when scootin' at 80 M.P.H, Yes, Minerva, my "30 Coupe WOULD run 80!