'34 Fordor Dlx Overheating

[Savvy]

Original engine and radiator
Engine head has "authorized recondition" sticker, paperwork says 1953 at 52k miles.
Odometer reads 53,600
Replaced water pumps circa 1980
Pumps were regreased currently.
Radiator removed and sent to shop for cleaning early 90s
Car has been garaged and "DMV no-op" since 1984 due to interior removed as a result of being rat domicile,
Engine starts quickly with fluid and idles smooth.
Rad starts dropping fluid after 5-10 minutes.
Installed mechanical temp gauges at the dummy plug of each wster pump.
At idle left pump ( driver) reads 160° after 10 minutes.
Right ( passenger) waterpump gauge reads 190° and slowly climbs.
After about 15 minutes at idle, rac has fumped about 1.5 gallons of fluid, with starting point at least of just covering baffle and 1-1.5 inch below overflow tube.
Cooling system has been flushed recently using Prestone.

What say you?

Cheers!!

[FlatheadTed]

Do you have Aluminum heads, if so likely corroded leaking into cylinders ,Radiater may need removing and rodded out ,Ted

[T Scott]

Sounds like you might have a head gasket issue. Any vapor coming out the tailpipe or bubbles in the radiator?

[drolston]

Sometimes you can't see the bubbles from a head gasket leak. The leak also might not show up on a compression test. Harbor Freight tester might be worth trying.



https://www.harborfreight.com/combus...tor-64814.html

[petehoovie]

Originally Posted by drolston

Sometimes you can't see the bubbles from a head gasket leak. The leak also might not show up on a compression test. Harbor Freight tester might be worth trying.



https://www.harborfreight.com/combus...tor-64814.html

[Ken/Alabama]

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Remove the upper radiator hoses. Loosen or remove the belt so the pumps can’t turn. Fill the block with water through the water necks until you can see water. Then start the engine and look for bubbles in the water necks.

[Savvy]

Heads are cast iron (original)
There has always been a minimal amount of water (<1/8 cup) and white smoke from the tail pipe at initial start but stops within first minute.

Not sure how you guys get a good seal using the radiator Compression Leak Detector.
My radiator has an overflow tube in the way, not to mention the steam coming out heats the plastic tube enough to make it deform. In any case, I was able to get vapor samples (bubbled up inside) into the detector and the fluid remained blue.
Pulled the plugs on the right side and neither were remarkably different, actually pretty nice, but the second from the firewall was the cleanest.
My cylinder leak down tester doesn't have a large enough adapter (great for BMW 2002s,not so much for '34 fords).
There are bubbles in the radiator, however they are not constant.
I'm guessing my issue is on the hot side (right ).
If/when it comes time to remove the head....
It looks like the generator is loosened, water pump and plugs come off, then the 21 nuts.
Am I missing anything?
What are the head bolts torque?
Water pump bolts torque?
I do have a new in package copper head gasket, but I'm gonna try vinegar soak for a few weeks.
In the mean time look for a correct compression leak down adapter.

Also, I received a message asking what my elevation was and how high did the temp go.
I'm at sea level. I'm running only water in radiator. It's not pressurized.
The right temp gauge reached a steady 210. If there is water in the system, I wouldn't expect that it would get any hotter than water vapor point (212). Am I wrong?

Thanks
Cheers!!

[FlatheadTed]

I like Kens one .Often first start up for the day the engine will run a little rough because of a wet spark plug . You short the plug out to identify which cylinder head is the issue , if Radiator is blocked it can dump water and increase as it loses water .Ted

[Savvy]

Sounds reasonable....
I'll do the hose removal test this weekend and report back.
Cheers!

[Savvy]

I removed the belt and upper hoses and filled block with water.
Unfortunately, the right side bubbled and spit vigorously after about 2 minutes.
Left side started to bubble slightly but stopped after right side went nuts.
I have one copper gasket. Unless one can give me a reason to wait for a second gasket to arrive, would it be reasonable to R&R the right head gasket alone and see how car responds after?
Cheers!

[38 coupe]

Don't fix what ain't broke, pull just one side if needed. If you have the head off take the time to clean the water jacket as much as possible, you don't want corrosion and junk in there.

[Savvy]

Originally Posted by 38 coupe

Don't fix what ain't broke, pull just one side if needed. If you have the head off take the time to clean the water jacket as much as possible, you don't want corrosion and junk in there.

Given that....
Is there a reason to remove the water pump from the head, opposed to removing together in one piece?

[38 coupe]

I wouldn't pull the pump unless there is a good reason to replace it. This assumes the pump has tight bushings, is pumping a good quantity of water, etc.
I might be tempted to swap a pair of Skip's pumps rebuilt for higher capacity, but probably would wait until other issues had been resolved. Changing too many things at once makes it impossible to diagnose a problem.

[Flathead Fever]

I think you already have the problem diagnosed but If you did have an adapter to pressurize the radiator you can take an ABS drainpipe rubber cap and clamp it onto the water pump inlet and seal the water pump. Then you can take a piece of hose, clamp a freeze plug into it that is drilled for a tire valve stem, clamp that to the head outlet, take your compressor and pressurize it a "little" and let it sit for half a day. Then crank it to see if it blows water out of a spark plug hole. Especially that clean one you have. Then torque the heads and see if that stops the leak. Definitely run coolant in your engine once you get this problem solved. Try not to take anything a part until you have identified the bad cylinder and run some tests on it. You could also remove the upper hose, take a compression tester hose screwed into the spark plug hole and pressurize the cylinder with a compressor and see if you see air bubbles coming out of the head outlet and then torque the head and see if that stops it. You might get away just tightening the heads but my guess is probabaly not because of electrolosys.

I am not a fan of copper gaskets because of the electrolysis from the dissimilar metals. Moden composite gaskets are much better. They are designed to expand and contract with the same rates as a cast-iron block and heads or cast-iron block with aluminum heads. This is what all modern engines use, and they can last 300,000 miles. The heads will stay looking like new inside if you also use coolant. Copper gaskets are for race cars with extremely high cylinder pressures. I would buy a new set of Felpro composite head gaskets. They come with a heat activated sealer. Clean the block and heads with acetone. Do not spray anything on the gaskets. Torque them down, run them through a few heating and cooling cycles and then torque then again.

The person that asked you about your elevation asked because the coolant boiling point goes down as your altitude goes up. For every 1000' you go up from sea level the boiling point drops 4 degrees. When it boils and turns to steam it expands to something like 1600 times its normal volume and that's when it breaks parts. You never want to let and engine get hot enough to turn the water to steam. For every pound pressure a radiator cap puts on the system it raises to boiling point 4 degrees, but an early Ford radiator can only handle 4 lbs. of pressure because of narrow solder joints on the tanks. Modern radiators can handle a lot more pressure and get away with running 210 degrees all of the time. The addition of a 50/50 mix of coolant also increases the boiling point even more, plus it prevents the electrolysis that eats your head gaskets and heads. It's a must that you run coolant, it's a cheap investment.

[highbeams]

Originally Posted by Savvy

Original engine and radiator
Engine head has "authorized recondition" sticker, paperwork says 1953 at 52k miles.
Odometer reads 53,600
Replaced water pumps circa 1980
Pumps were regreased currently.
Radiator removed and sent to shop for cleaning early 90s
Car has been garaged and "DMV no-op" since 1984 due to interior removed as a result of being rat domicile,
Engine starts quickly with fluid and idles smooth.
Rad starts dropping fluid after 5-10 minutes.
Installed mechanical temp gauges at the dummy plug of each wster pump.
At idle left pump ( driver) reads 160° after 10 minutes.
Right ( passenger) waterpump gauge reads 190° and slowly climbs.
After about 15 minutes at idle, rac has fumped about 1.5 gallons of fluid, with starting point at least of just covering baffle and 1-1.5 inch below overflow tube.
Cooling system has been flushed recently using Prestone.

What say you?

Cheers!!

Savvy: regarding the Installed mechanical temp gauges at the dummy plug of each water pump, have you had good results? Are set-up mechanical temp gauges readily available?

What is the difference between a mechanical temp gauge and a temp gauge with a sender? Thank you -

Pat Malone highbeams -

[deuce lover]

To me there are 2 types of temp gauges. Electric which uses a sender with an adapter installed in the head or block. The other is one that has a bulb at the end of the capillary tube coming from the gauge like the 32-38 Fords.The 32-34 Ford sender/bulb mounts in the upper radiator hose with an adapter. The 35-36 temp gauge mounts in the port of the water pump so does not need an adapter.The 37-39 temp gauge also requires an adapter as it mounts in the cyl head..

[Savvy]

Originally Posted by highbeams

Savvy: regarding the Installed mechanical temp gauges at the dummy plug of each water pump, have you had good results? Are set-up mechanical temp gauges readily available?

What is the difference between a mechanical temp gauge and a temp gauge with a sender? Thank you -

Pat Malone highbeams -

This is what I have for each pump.
Poke bulb through firewall grommet, bulb slips into dummy plug hole, attached sealing nut threaded right in with no adapter needed ( though 3 sizes included). Secured sender cable to plug wire tubes ( I used black zip ties).Works to my satisfaction. I do not have my dash installed as I plan to have all moldings woodgrained. I purchased a dual gauge mount that I will velcro to the dash lower border. The water pumps and oil filter canister are not original to the car, but original to my grandfather,, so I'm not sweating that I have temp gauges.
Better safe than sorry.
Actron Bosch SP0F000053 Style Line 2" Mechanical Water/Oil Temperature Gauge (Black Dial Face, Black Bezel) https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UM9X5KG..._k8mhs9id1at1D

[Savvy]

Ok, head bolts off and head doesn't budge.
In a different post it was suggested to leave plugs in, loosen head nuts a few turns and run the starter motor.... head pops loose.
The theory seems reasonable.
How about in practice???

[cadillac512]

Originally Posted by Savvy

Ok, head bolts off and head doesn't budge.
In a different post it was suggested to leave plugs in, loosen head nuts a few turns and run the starter motor.... head pops loose.
The theory seems reasonable.
How about in practice???

Worth a shot...can't hurt anything.



Terry

[Savvy]

Originally Posted by cadillac512

Worth a shot...can't hurt anything.



Terry

Wow! Worked, not like a charm, but good enough to get enough separation to rock the head to get it past the studs.

Now head is off, not crack found in block, gasket looks pretty good though one center water jacket and one perimeter metal ring separated from gasket upon removal. Pistons each have some carbon buildup, cylinder walls feel smooth, intake valves reasonably clean (beige), exhaust valves have carbon build up (black).
Head water jackets are a lot clearer than block jackets.

I'm familiar with 4 cylinder overhead cam German heads, this is my first exposed flathead. What is the proper/best way to clean-up the block and head. I was thinking a vacuum rather than air to assist in the cleaning up of the block along with solvent (kerosene) on microfiber and toothbrush,

Sound reasonable?

New gasket, fiber or copper?
My local parts (Sacramento Vintage) only sells copper.
So Cal folks carry both.

Cheers!!