baffling loss of oil UPDATE

[pat in Santa Cruz]

After realizing I was looking at data provided second and third hand, I decided to go over the engine personally. What I had asked was, " did you see any clogs in the oil filler tube or cap?"

I was told no. That's because the 2 who tore down the engine and inspected it did not investigate in detail. They saw this:


GEDC0525 by tiopato2000, on Flickr

a normal oil filler tube. When I pulled the cap, I found this:


GEDC0526 by tiopato2000, on Flickr

This was " filtered" with a green Scotch Brite pad which was saturated with the typical oil and water vapor froth from a winter engine subject to short trips. I tried to blow air through it...it was totally clogged...no means for crankcase pressure to escape except through the rear main, the pressure pushing the oil up the drain tube and out the rear seal.

A call to Rich Falluca by shop staff got this answer, without any leading or information on the event, other than that the engine seized.
Rich said, " oh yeah, a plugged filler cap, It would take about 50 miles for the crankcase pressure to push the entire oil supply out the rear main, and another 20 for the engine to fail."

This engine failed at 70 miles from starting out with a full pan. There was 1/2 cup of oil left in the pan when all 4 pistons seized.

[700rpm]

Thanks for the follow-up Pat. Was this the fellow here who was sure he had checked his oil that morning, went on a 100 mile tour, and his engine seized?

[Earle]

For several years and several thousand miles I've used fine steel wool stuffed into the cap of my oil filler tube - after I first thoroughly shook out all of the loose fibers, of course.

It has done very well at trapping hot oil vapors while driving and allowing the oil to drain back down into the engine instead of blowing an oil film all over the side of the engine. An inspection before every drive, when checking the oil level, insures that no blockage is developing. It has never gotten clogged up.

[BrianBurkert]

I've given up on brillo pads, socks, and oil breathers. I let the blow-by coat the engine. Keeps it from rusting. 50 years down the road my starter will look like new underneath the grime. Also, I get the Model A air freshener effect with the oil vapors coming up through the pedal plate. Good for the sinuses, skin, and hair. It ensures that everyone knows they are (and we are) riding in a Model A.

[Benson]

Pat thanks for updating!

It is always good to know what the final problem was.

I have seen pieces of rusted steel wool find their way into the oil pan, from the condensation of water vapor collecting in the steel wool from folks using that "cure".

The rusted pieces then fell out of the cap and into the oil pan.

[Pilotdave]

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I followed the original thread as posts were added. Interesting that none suggested this possibility as the cause of the oil loss. Sure glad to hear that an answer has been found - but who installed the Brillo pad "filter"? If the rebuild shop did it, I would think that the shop owes the owner a new engine.

[HoarseWhisperer]

Fine steel wool = bad

Coarse stainless steel = better

[TinCup]

I had the exact problem with my coupe. Someone had placed steelwool in the cap to prevent blowby and of course oil poured out the rear main.

[criswellnk]

I don't know how well the owner will take the news that it was something that was relativly simple, either way it is unfortunate that the engine in question is toast. Thanks for posting the upadate as to what you had found. With my most recent A, when I had first gotten it, more oil was being pumped out the rear main than through the rest of the engine I bet. Not the first thing (but one of the first things) to check was the oil filler cap, and sure enough the tabs that keep it from being pushed all the way down were bent straight. Somehow, somewhere in the past somebody had pushed the cap down too tight and the engine wasn't able to breath right. Once I found a good cap, the oil being pumped out the rear almost completly disappeared.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

yes, this is the same engine that froze up last week. I cannot figure out how to add to the title of an existing thread I have started so I could link it to that thread with a title indicating there's more news. Sorry if anyone wasn't sure. The pad was added by the owner. While the cylinders will have to be bored out to the next O.S., he is fortunate that the new Burlington crank and Stipe cam are ok.

40 years ago I tried out a copper Brillo pad in a B engine, on the suggestion of some club members. It was a common cure for the oil smell back then. The engine started leaking a bit more out the rear. So I took it out and added a road draft tube on the suggestion of one fellow who knew better what these engines needed. It worked very well and actually reduced oil leakage from the rear main. . I've always used road draft tubes since. A engines do not breathe well enough anyway and blocking an airway that is already insufficient is a bad idea at best. As this event shows, it could be the worst thing you do to your new engine.

[PC/SR]

Thanks for the update. I use the kitchen "chore girl" thing like Hoarse shows, and have also drilled and tapped a 90* brass fitting into the upper rear part of the valve cover. Get a little bit of cross ventilation, and you can feel the blow by puff-puffs there for more pressure relief. No oil leaks.

[dfish2931nc]

I was told by an old Model A friend that a road draft tube on a Model A meant it had too much blowby. He said to never buy a Model A with one of them on the engine.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by dfish2931nc

I was told by an old Model A friend that a road draft tube on a Model A meant it had too much blowby. He said to never buy a Model A with one of them on the engine.

That could be the reason, but not necessarily always is. It helps keep the engine bay cleaner. There is less odor coming through the brake pedal holes. But I bet the most common reason is called a wife who hates to ride in that smelly old Ford.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by PC/SR

Thanks for the update. I use the kitchen "chore girl" thing like Hoarse shows, and have also drilled and tapped a 90* brass fitting into the upper rear part of the valve cover. Get a little bit of cross ventilation, and you can feel the blow by puff-puffs there for more pressure relief. No oil leaks.

I have seen PCV valves installed there in the valve cover, and they work very well when installed correctly. It must be in the upper rear, like you did, because the valves rely on the oil mist for lubrication. Installing a PVC in the front could deprive the rear valves of sufficient mist.

[steve s]

I use the wider, Model B, filler tube, but then that's just the sort of thing I would do.

Steve

[700rpm]

Pat: You can add to the title of an original thread by clicking on the Edit button in your first post. When the edit screen opens up, click on the Advanced button, and that will give you access to editing any part of the post, including the title.

I'm posting this as part of this thread so others might also benefit from it, not to wander off topic or hijack the thread. Hope that helps.

[msmaron]

Same problem happened to me, removed the steel wool, filled back up with oil and problem literately solved instantly.

[Pilotdave]

Good to hear that the rebuild shop had not installed that Brillo pad. And to hear that some significant parts could be salvaged.

[Tony S,Fl.]

The other day I saw an oil filler pipe with a half inch copper tube soldered about 1 inch below the cap. A 90 degree bend down right along side of the filler pipestraight down through the engine pan. I ment to ask this forum if that would be practicle. So I'm asking. Sounds better than the flexable tubing. Tony

[V4F]

i use a K&N filter & it has to much resistance to be a good breather . i installed a PCV valve under it in the pipe , routed it into my air filter in the bottom & all is well now .

[James Rogers]

I posted this reply on another thread but it seems to fit here also. This is a horror story for the owner but my reply might explain why there is sometimes oil on the driver side of the engine. Even on a new engine there can be some oil on the tube and engine with absolutely no problems with the motor other than the rings have not seated.

"Understand, the depth of the oil in the tray is deeper than the trough. The oil will build to the level at the rear of the tray before it returns to the pan bottom. Ford had a problem with this causing a fog inside the crankcase and oil creeping out the filler tube. To combat this he changed the design of the baffles in the filler twice and eventually returned to the original type so, 3 different tries before enlarging the tube to approx 2 1/4" for the 32 model. When he found the change to the tube did not work he installed holes in the tray flat so as to drop the level of oil in the tray. These holes started as 4 7/16" holes in each corner but had a fifth added soon after. When this still didn't do the job he increased the diameter of the holes to 1" which worked better and was the end of the modification. After this the V8 was modified for pressure which eliminated the need for the tray and solved the problem to an extent. Even after this, the problem plagued him and others so, the road tube was invented with an internal baffle that effectively solved the problem."

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by Tony S,Fl.

The other day I saw an oil filler pipe with a half inch copper tube soldered about 1 inch below the cap. A 90 degree bend down right along side of the filler pipestraight down through the engine pan. I ment to ask this forum if that would be practicle. So I'm asking. Sounds better than the flexable tubing. Tony

The fumaze had a straight pipe that emptied out on the engine pan. I have mixed feelings about them. The fumes are still upwind of the firewall and pedal holes, yet being in the path of the radiator air they should be swept down the pan and out the louvers. With a flex tube, you route the tube through the motor mount square holes, so the fumes exit downwind of any entry to the inside of the car and the draft is increased by the wind under the car sweeping past the tube opening.. Yet, flex tubes get pretty greasy and gross. I suppose its up to the individual. On my sedan I modified a B oil filler to accept the base mount of a flex tube, and ran that out the motor mounts. Works like a charm, but it is greasy. The solution I have seen for the entire mess is a carefully installed PCV valve in the upper back corner of the valve cover, routed neatly into the Weber air filter on the car....the engine is clean, it stopped the rear main dripping and the owner is satisfied that he is polluting the air less as a bonus..

[Jerry Parr WI]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

I posted this reply on another thread but it seems to fit here also. This is a horror story for the owner but my reply might explain why there is sometimes oil on the driver side of the engine. Even on a new engine there can be some oil on the tube and engine with absolutely no problems with the motor other than the rings have not seated.

"Understand, the depth of the oil in the tray is deeper than the trough. The oil will build to the level at the rear of the tray before it returns to the pan bottom. Ford had a problem with this causing a fog inside the crankcase and oil creeping out the filler tube. To combat this he changed the design of the baffles in the filler twice and eventually returned to the original type so, 3 different tries before enlarging the tube to approx 2 1/4" for the 32 model. When he found the change to the tube did not work he installed holes in the tray flat so as to drop the level of oil in the tray. These holes started as 4 7/16" holes in each corner but had a fifth added soon after. When this still didn't do the job he increased the diameter of the holes to 1" which worked better and was the end of the modification. After this the V8 was modified for pressure which eliminated the need for the tray and solved the problem to an extent. Even after this, the problem plagued him and others so, the road tube was invented with an internal baffle that effectively solved the problem."

You missed one James. After the Model A tube baffle changes failed to correct the problem, in 32 first he lengthened the tube. When that failed then he enlarged the diameter. The real solution came when he dropped the 4 cyl engine.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Jerry Parr WI

You missed one James. After the Model A tube baffle changes failed to correct the problem, in 32 first he lengthened the tube. When that failed then he enlarged the diameter. The real solution came when he dropped the 4 cyl engine.

You know Jerry, you are correct. I have seen tubes that were 2 or 3 inches longer than the A tubes and my chronology is off just a bit but mostly correct. The only thing that will make the issue non-existent is a well broken in efficient engine with little or no wear.

[Fred K-OR]

Help, please fill in this "jargon-less" Model A guy and explain "road tube". I assume this is the thing that fits on top of the oil filler tube and has a hose that extends under the car? If that is it, I guess I had a "farmers" road tube in my engine when I started rebuilding my Huckster engine. It had a small tomato juice can stuck upside down in a Model B oil tube where a hole was cut in the can to place flexible metal tube in the hole that ran under the engine. If anyone wants a picture of this thing, I think I still have it around somewhere.

[James Rogers]

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Fred, you are pretty close. What you refer to is called a Fumaze and it did the same as a road tube in later cars. On the V8 flathead, the road tube, ran from the front of the intake at the filler tube around the front of the motor and exited just under the pan rail behind the front motor mount with a slash cut in the tube. The tube was 1 1/8" steel and the slash left the front of the tube longer than the rear so air could pull the fumes out through suction.

[Earle]

If you use fine or course steel wool, copper wool, etc., there is no way that the wool itself can cause enough resistance to air flow coming up out of the crank case to build up enough back-pressure to "blow" oil out the rear main UNLESS the wool is clogged with dirt, sludge, etc. or packed way too tight (or the rear main is already prone to excessive leakage). Just try putting a fine steel wool pad against your mouth and blowing through it - practically no resistance at all! With two pistons going up while two are coming down there is no on-going net volume change inside the crank case, besides blow-by, to cause air flow out the filler pipe.

But, of course, the higher the air flow rate through the wool (i.e. higher blow-by), the higher the back-pressure will be. So, if an engine has a lot of blow-by, the air flow could possibly get high enough to raise crank-case pressure to the point of causing main seal excessive leakage.

The wool is not there to act as a "filter". It's purpose is to act as a large "condensation" surface area for the oil vapor so the liquid oil can then collect on the fibers and drain back down inside the filler tube.

My steel wool has been in place for several thousand miles with no oil film in the engine compartment and only very low "normal" rear main leakage. I have a recently-rebuilt, well-run-in Schwalm-built engine which helps for very low blow-by. And as the wool is constantly coated with oil, with even occasional driving, it never rusts.

Before I put the steel wool in I got a slight oil film down the outside of the filler tube and over the left side of the engine over a long time.

'Gotta inspect the wool as often as you check oil level to be safe. And you can't use things like "Brillo Pads" or other "treated" steel wool or fiber products 'cause they already have foreign substances in them to start the "clogging" process.

That green Scotch-Brite in the photo looks like it was clogged with some kind of soap or cleansers or had some kind of chemical reaction with the engine oil or other atmospheric contaminents. And it looks like it hadn't been inspected for quite a while. Could that degree of clogging have possibly developed and then blown out all the engine oil in a single trip - between frequent inspections??

Other approaches besides steel wool, mentioned here, may - and apparently do -work just as well for other folks.

[James Rogers]

One thing I have not seen mentioned here is where this oil went. If it was pushed out the rear main at the rate of 1 quart every 15 or 20 miles the bottom of the car should be coated even now. Not only that but anyone following this car should have oil on their car unless they were 200 yards behind him and even at that there might be some. I would guess when the car finally died the oil should be dripping from every bolt and nut and frame component under the car. The cause of the oil loss should have been VERY obvious at the site of the stop. What about it?

[pat in Santa Cruz]

it was a major part of the baffling mystery why the underside of the car was not more oily than normal. That was a significant point I made note of from the first. I also suggested that the driver behind might have noticed an oily windshield. I have seen cars whose rear main cracked up, and they were drenched underneath even though they leaked less severely than this car did.. This very car with its old engine leaked so bad 2 years ago that no one would follow him, we made him ride at the back due to the smoke and oily windshields anyone behind him would have to suffer. So where is the new engine's oil?? The owner still insists the dipstick showed a full pan. Hes not given to falsehood, and he's not so old his memory is failing. I believe he checked the oil, and I believe he saw a full mark. Rich Falluca's experience when we called for his opinion was that a sealed breather pipe will push all the oil out the rear main in 50 miles. When this car finally broke down, the owner did say oil was pouring out the flywheel housing. The clutch was drenched. So at least some oil exited from the rear main. The theory regarding why the car undersides are not soaked is:

It was a tour through city streets from down the El Camino Real, a 35 MPH street, principally stop and go with lights every block. You might get 3 blocks before hitting a red light. A certain amount of oil can accumulate in the flywheel housing due to the wind from the spinning flywheel at road speed. When coming to a stop, the oil no longer held back as well by an idling flywheel, pours out the drain hole while the car waits for the green light. Then the process begins again at the green light. We have not yet contacted whomever it was who was following this car. I suspect there would be some oil on their windshield and hood. When the owner gets back from his vacation I am going to suggest he go back to the tour destination where the car was parked for 2 hours after the first 50 miles and see if there is a huge oil spot. His trip home was solo, so no one who would have known him was behind, but he made it about 20 miles.

The Scotch Brite pad was saturated with an oily emulsion typical in oil filler tubes from winter condensation. I have seen more and more of this in A filler tubes within the last few years. I suspect the increase in this frothy scum is a result of ethanol laced fuel. Ethanol fuel attracts water, some of which which when burned gets into the crankcase from normal blowby. Short trips aggravate it because the engine does not get hot enough to burn it off. During the rainy season, it is more difficult for an engine to blow off humidity when the ambient air is saturated. I am guessing the pad worked for several months prior to the wet season. The car has around 5000 miles on this engine. When the owner gets back I am eager to hear how long this "filter" has been in there.

I would be cautious using things like Brillo pads today. While they might have worked in the past, todays fuel might contribute to their being a cause of trouble today. Anyone using one should keep an eye on it. OTOH, a road draft tube will help ventilate the water vapor better as well as placing the fumes below and behind the interior of the car.

Its interesting what James brings up about Ford's knowing crankcase ventilation was a problem. Other manufacturers in those days did too. Buick, in 1927, designed a crankcase ventilation system that took air in from the fan through a somewhat filtered intake funnel, and exhausted it out the rear of the engine down a draft tube. They claimed at the time that the frequency of changing oil every 500 miles was now reduced to once every 2000 miles since with the ventilation and their new oil filter, contaminants that were not whisked out the vent would be trapped in the filter. They were so proud of it that they promoted it in their advertising in 1927.

[James Rogers]

Shell produced an article once that said if a motor lost one drop of oil every 10 feet it would loose a quart in 25 miles. This much oil would literally coat the bottom of the car. I have had engines that didn't leak anywhere as bad as you claim this one did and the undercarrage was soaked. Mystery to me it is not coated and still dripping. You can let a Model A sit for 2 days and drop the pan and still get drips in your eye when adjusting the bearings.

[JBill]

Not to prolong this thread too much, but I have a newly rebuilt engine with about 500 miles on it with serious oil leaking problems. When I installed the engine I also installed one of those oil tubes with a flexible metal pipe coming out the side and extending under the car and an air-tight, machined aluminum cap. I read the Antique Engine Rebuilding admonishments about leaky rear mains and decided that that relatively small pipe (about 3/4 of an inch in diameter) just didn't allow enough crankcase pressure to escape, and that was pushing oil out the rear main. So, I removed the whole thing, after ordering a conventional tube and cap, . . . . And guess what. After I removed it I found that the flexible pipe, where it leaves the fill tube, was absolutely packed full of some kind of paraffin-like crud, something you couldn't see unless the whole thing was removed. I haven't run the car after the fix yet, but I'm hoping this will at least contribute to solving my problem. Needless to say, my engine compartment is squeaky clean, which I like, and I'm trying to figure out a way to construct some sort of tube from pvc pipe and flexible hose to run oil mist out under the car.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by James Rogers

Shell produced an article once that said if a motor lost one drop of oil every 10 feet it would loose a quart in 25 miles. This much oil would literally coat the bottom of the car. I have had engines that didn't leak anywhere as bad as you claim this one did and the undercarrage was soaked. Mystery to me it is not coated and still dripping. You can let a Model A sit for 2 days and drop the pan and still get drips in your eye when adjusting the bearings.

I got one in the eye this morning from one sitting all week.

James, its a mystery to me as well. His car is not squeaky clean under there, the tranny is dripping somewhat, and there is a film of dirt and oil on the rear axle, but its not like some I have seen which were leaking much less. That's why I call it baffling.

[James Rogers]

Pat, if you find out for sure let us know. Mysteries like this baffle even the oldest and smartest of us.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Quick question, if I may, have to "resize" my early '29 filler tube, (loose in the block) what is he correct orientation of the baffles in the tube, fore & aft, or top & bottom?? Bill W.

[Milton]

The top baffle "hinge" is next to the engine.

[JBill]

Milton, can you explain? I don't see why the orientation of the baffles should make any difference at all.

[CarlG]

Originally Posted by pat in Santa Cruz

... The solution I have seen for the entire mess is a carefully installed PCV valve in the upper back corner of the valve cover, routed neatly into the Weber air filter on the car....the engine is clean, it stopped the rear main dripping and the owner is satisfied that he is polluting the air less as a bonus..

Do you have any pictures of the tube between the PCV valve and the carb, and/or specs on what PCV valve you used?

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by JBill

Milton, can you explain? I don't see why the orientation of the baffles should make any difference at all.

This is according to the Factory Service Bulletins for July 1929. This was the first revision of the oil tube but not the last.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Oh! well, I'll try them fore & aft, They'll drain better! With them top & bottom, the bottom baffles would be left with oil puddles on them. Probably would'nt amount to a hill of beans whichever way I placed them. Momma used to tell me, put a sock in your mouth. I'll put one on my OIL SNOUT! Bill W.

[Benson]

JS page 1-3 has a picture of the first 3 versions ... if you remove the breather pipe, invert it and look at the end. If you see a piece of steel baffle the runs across the inside of the tube, bisecting the pipe and even with the bottom of the pipe, then you have one of the first two versions that did not work too well.

If there is no metal baffle bisecting the pipe and the angled baffle is about 1 or one and 1/2 inches above the bottom then that is the later design pipe.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Benson

JS page 1-3 has a picture of the first 3 versions ... if you remove the breather pipe, invert it and look at the end. If you see a piece of steel baffle the runs across the inside of the tube, bisecting the pipe and even with the bottom of the pipe, then you have one of the first two versions that did not work too well.

If there is no metal baffle bisecting the pipe and the angled baffle is about 1 or one and 1/2 inches above the bottom then that is the later design pipe.

And it didn't work either. That's why the 32 pipe is larger with larger baffles and cap.

[pat in Santa Cruz]

Originally Posted by CarlG

Do you have any pictures of the tube between the PCV valve and the carb, and/or specs on what PCV valve you used?

unfortunately no. I can get it, but it will be a while before I see it again.

[CarlG]

Pat, Since I already have the Weber, that sounds like a perfect solution. I often wondered what that extra open hole in the air cleaner was for! Any info you have on this would be great!

[Old182]

Here's a pic of what I've used for the last 23 years: A plastic WD40 cap, drilled and placed in the oil filler cap - fits just right, doesn't allow much blowby, keeps the crankcase vented, and doesn't leak little pieces of steel.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by Old182

Here's a pic of what I've used for the last 23 years: A plastic WD40 cap, drilled and placed in the oil filler cap - fits just right, doesn't allow much blowby, keeps the crankcase vented, and doesn't leak little pieces of steel.

I love it!!!

[criswellnk]

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This is titled PCV'ING A MODEL "A" and is taken from Technically Speaking (vol. 7 pg. 113).



They list the oil filler cap and pcv vale as being Jeep-Eagle parts (cap J3220248 valve J3236675 and hose J8125841).

[TinCup]

If I was going to put a pcv valve I like this setup better.

[Milton]

Originally Posted by JBill

Milton, can you explain? I don't see why the orientation of the baffles should make any difference at all.

To be honest, I don't either. But since the question was asked, I provided an answer based on an illustration in a Murry Fahnstock book.