The Ford Barn

Dino's A · 12-12-2022, 09:29 AM

It's been reported that the new roller cluster bearings are inferior
in quality and seem to fail prematurely.

Has anyone switched over to bronze bushings instead?
My jeep uses 2 bronze bushings with the spacer in between.

I'm not a big fan of bushings, but they do work, and have worked
in many transmissions of the early '40's

Possible?

alexiskai · 12-12-2022, 09:35 AM

Snyder's reports that they have correctly-made bearings in stock now. I haven't personally verified but that's what they say.

nkaminar · 12-12-2022, 09:37 AM

In October I visited Sammy at Arizona A's. He sells new and used parts for Model A's and T's and has restored many cars and repaired cars for people. I asked him about the modern bearings for the transmissions. He said that the problem is not the bearings but the way they are installed. He said that they are often damaged by installing the parts while the transmissions are horizontal and recommended installing the parts while the transmissions are vertical, and done carefully. One man's opinion, but from someone who I regard as an authority.

katy · 12-12-2022, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nkaminar

In October I visited Sammy at Arizona A's. I asked him about the modern bearings for the transmissions. He said that the problem is not the bearings but the way they are installed. He said that they are often damaged by installing the parts while the transmissions are horizontal and recommended installing the parts while the transmissions are vertical, and done carefully. One man's opinion, but from someone who I regard as an authority.

I can't see why it would make a difference.

Ordsgt · 12-12-2022, 02:57 PM

The roller bearings that are good have a shaft that runs through each roller and engages into the cage at each end. The inferior ones were made with a small nub on the end of each roller which fit into a recess in the cage. My understanding is that these had a very high failure rate. When I rebuilt my transmission it was hit or miss on getting good roller bearings so I ordered from different suppliers and used only the good ones. Considering what is involved with removing a transmission I used NO Chinese bearings roller or main. It is not worth the trouble should they fail

rotorwrench · 12-12-2022, 05:19 PM

Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements)

The B-7118 and B-7121 rollers were used up into the 50s before they made the gear & shaft change to loose needle bearings. I always check with VanPelt Sales on transmission bearings since he rebuilds them and likely doesn't like problems anymore than we do. He gives the straight answers on this stuff and best parts he can source.

Tom Endy · 12-12-2022, 08:53 PM

I would be skeptical about any supplier claiming to have quality roller bearings for the Model A transmission. I don't believe they exist. When this problem first occurred a number of years ago one well respected supplier claimed he had the correct bearings because he had been dealing with the same source for more than twenty years. A friend ordered a set and when received they were the same poor quality bearings every other supplier had.

It is difficult to tell good from bad. The attached might help. The ones on the market today will fail in 300 to 400 miles. These bearing are not only used in the cluster gear, one is also used in the input shaft.

The off-shore folks slid these crumby bearings of a completely different design into the Model A kingdom so slick that they didn't even need to use lubrication.

https://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-cont...ings-rev-Z.pdf

Tom Endy

The Master Cylinder · 12-12-2022, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Endy

I would be skeptical about any supplier claiming to have quality roller bearings for the Model A transmission. I don't believe they exist. When this problem first occurred a number of years ago one well respected supplier claimed he had the correct bearings because he had been dealing with the same source for more than twenty years. A friend ordered a set and when received they were the same poor quality bearings every other supplier had.

It is difficult to tell good from bad. The attached might help. The ones on the market today will fail in 300 to 400 miles. These bearing are not only used in the cluster gear, one is also used in the input shaft.

The off-shore folks slid these crumby bearings of a completely different design into the Model A kingdom so slick that they didn't even need to use lubrication.

https://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-cont...ings-rev-Z.pdf

Tom Endy

Tom, what are your thoughts on using bushing instead of bearings.

Flathead · 12-12-2022, 09:38 PM

Chevrolet used bushings, nuff said.

al's28/33 · 12-12-2022, 10:19 PM

Mine just went bad last May but I do not even have 500 miles on the car since it was replaced. I'll keep ya'll informed when this new one goes out.

Joe K · 12-12-2022, 10:37 PM

There are those (myself included) who leave out the "spacer" normally used between the long bearing and the short bearing in the cluster gear. Instead the space is filled with THREE bearings.

I can't remember if the three are three shorts, two shorts and a long, or two longs and a short. I think the last.

Still, bad bearings are bad bearings. Perhaps more reduces the loading, but also increases the chance of failure of one by 1/3rd.

Joe K

Bill G · 12-12-2022, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexiskai

Snyder's reports that they have correctly-made bearings in stock now. I haven't personally verified but that's what they say.

I have heard the same.

I recently rebuilt my transmission and used bearings that another club member gave me. I repaid him by buying a set from Snyders. (after I put mine all back together). I looked at them through the plastic wrapping and they looked correct; I.E. an actual axle on the rollers rather than hollow rollers like the notorious bad ones. I cannot say for sure, but they did look better than the bad one on my input shaft that actually fell apart. For me it wasn't the cluster bearing that "blew up" but rather the input shaft to main shaft bearing. At least they lasted about 3k miles and about 3 years.

It is no picnic to get to the transmission just to change bearings, which itself is a pretty easier task.

Maybe someone who knows bearings can buy one from Snyders just to see how they look.

Tom Endy · 12-13-2022, 01:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Master Cylinder

Tom, what are your thoughts on using bushing instead of bearings.

Bushings would probably work just fine. I would use them before the bearings that are on the market today. Where do I get them?

I have a few used serviceable bearings that I have been using. When they are gone I am done overhauling transmissions unless somebody starts making the correct ones.

Tom Endy

john charlton · 12-13-2022, 02:30 AM

Luckily I never ever throw anything away so I have enough good used Hyatt spiral roller bearings in stock . I am rebuilding the front end of a 1930 AA truck . I needed the T 105 king pin thrust bearing . I found that they are no longer made by Timken ,Skf or Bower . and are no longer cataloged . I was lucky to find one supplier who had several hundred in stock . Sammy at Arizona Model A has NOS AA king pins but no bearings so I have bought him a whole bunch of bearings to bring out when I visit with him in late Jan . Anyone needing king pins and bearings so call him .I think the bushes are the same as wrist pin bushings . To cut to the chase can anyone tell me the part number for the Hyatt or compatible bearing I might get lucky here in England .I will let you know .

John in freezing Suffolk County England .

Joe K · 12-13-2022, 07:00 PM

It's not possible to tell "which" of the bearings that Snyder currently offers from the pix.

I suspect given the "stand-apart" followed by three rollers that this is the bearing with the "nubs" on the ends of the rollers. If that is the case then this is not the right one.

The pix might not be the right pix. The bearing clones are close enough in general appearance so Snyders might not be sensitive to the detail.

A swipe with a file on the end-circle might tell you all you need to know (hardened v. unhardened.)

Joe K

Ordsgt · 12-13-2022, 08:00 PM

Poor quality failed bearing vs correct. Took apart correct to see difference. Have seen one other type of defective bearing. It had a small nub on the end of the roller that fit into a small recess in the cage

nkaminar · 12-14-2022, 08:52 AM

I don't have the dimensions handy but see if you can find the right sleeve bearing here: Perhaps substitute several shorter ones for a longer one?

https://www.mcmaster.com/bearings/mu...ve-bearings-8/

Dino's A · 12-14-2022, 09:38 AM

Since I'm a Military jeep owner ( yes, it's a Ford!) I'm used to using
bronze bushings. Although the T-84 transmission used is not the strongest
transmission, Bronze bushings in their cluster gave little and rare trouble.

nkamiar-I was thinking of the same guys-McMaster-Carr as the place to get
bushings. I have dealt with them before, if you ever re bushed a Zenith throttle body
they have the correct bushings as well.

We all know the real fear here: Pulling the motor or rear end out to do something over again in such a short period of time really stinks!

jwmckenzie · 12-14-2022, 09:40 AM

Here is a pic of an NORS bearing that I picked up at Hershey a few years ago.

As 'Ordsgt' indicated, this bearing has the roller machined with a tip on the end that fits into the female hole on the end of the cage.

The failed bearings I have seen have a recess cut into the roller and the cage has 'tips" stamped into the ends so that the male end is in the cage and the female end is in the roller.

That said I have a Hyatt Bearing that is made with the male in the end cage and the female in the roller. it's a very well-made bearing, think I got it from Berts as a used bearing. Here is a pic, you can just barely make out 'HYATT-USA'

As far as what Snyders has, I would call them if I needed bearings.

Joe K · 12-14-2022, 11:24 AM

Someone elsewhere indicated that for the "teat/tip-roller" bearing, the cages can be either "hardened or unhardened." In the case of the unhardened circle, the pix showed the needle "wearing" into the circle - until it released.

That may be the difference?

Can you check the FOMOCO needle retainer circle to see if it is hardened? (I imagine it is. FOMOCO back in the day was like "Kenmore" was to a later generation of Sears Product buyers - fundamental but solid in its conception.)

Snyder's you do get the advantage of "return if not satisfied for a full credit." Of course getting to that point can be its own challenge.

Joe K

12-12-2022, 09:29 AM	#1
Dino's A Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Arcadia, Ca. Posts: 251	Cluster bearing solution? It's been reported that the new roller cluster bearings are inferior in quality and seem to fail prematurely. Has anyone switched over to bronze bushings instead? My jeep uses 2 bronze bushings with the spacer in between. I'm not a big fan of bushings, but they do work, and have worked in many transmissions of the early '40's Possible?

12-12-2022, 09:35 AM	#2
alexiskai Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Mebane NC Posts: 2,356	Re: Cluster bearing solution? Snyder's reports that they have correctly-made bearings in stock now. I haven't personally verified but that's what they say.

12-12-2022, 09:37 AM	#3
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,900	Re: Cluster bearing solution? In October I visited Sammy at Arizona A's. He sells new and used parts for Model A's and T's and has restored many cars and repaired cars for people. I asked him about the modern bearings for the transmissions. He said that the problem is not the bearings but the way they are installed. He said that they are often damaged by installing the parts while the transmissions are horizontal and recommended installing the parts while the transmissions are vertical, and done carefully. One man's opinion, but from someone who I regard as an authority. __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

12-12-2022, 02:57 PM	#5
Ordsgt Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2020 Location: Yorktown Virginia Posts: 182	Re: Cluster bearing solution? The roller bearings that are good have a shaft that runs through each roller and engages into the cage at each end. The inferior ones were made with a small nub on the end of each roller which fit into a recess in the cage. My understanding is that these had a very high failure rate. When I rebuilt my transmission it was hit or miss on getting good roller bearings so I ordered from different suppliers and used only the good ones. Considering what is involved with removing a transmission I used NO Chinese bearings roller or main. It is not worth the trouble should they fail

12-12-2022, 05:19 PM	#6
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: Cluster bearing solution? Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) The B-7118 and B-7121 rollers were used up into the 50s before they made the gear & shaft change to loose needle bearings. I always check with VanPelt Sales on transmission bearings since he rebuilds them and likely doesn't like problems anymore than we do. He gives the straight answers on this stuff and best parts he can source.

12-12-2022, 08:53 PM	#7
Tom Endy Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern California Posts: 3,131	Re: Cluster bearing solution? I would be skeptical about any supplier claiming to have quality roller bearings for the Model A transmission. I don't believe they exist. When this problem first occurred a number of years ago one well respected supplier claimed he had the correct bearings because he had been dealing with the same source for more than twenty years. A friend ordered a set and when received they were the same poor quality bearings every other supplier had. It is difficult to tell good from bad. The attached might help. The ones on the market today will fail in 300 to 400 miles. These bearing are not only used in the cluster gear, one is also used in the input shaft. The off-shore folks slid these crumby bearings of a completely different design into the Model A kingdom so slick that they didn't even need to use lubrication. https://www.santaanitaas.org/wp-cont...ings-rev-Z.pdf Tom Endy

12-12-2022, 09:38 PM	#9
Flathead Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Southern Maine Posts: 1,499	Re: Cluster bearing solution? Chevrolet used bushings, nuff said.

12-12-2022, 10:19 PM	#10
al's28/33 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Redwood City, CA Posts: 1,591	Re: Cluster bearing solution? Mine just went bad last May but I do not even have 500 miles on the car since it was replaced. I'll keep ya'll informed when this new one goes out. __________________ 1928 "A" Phaeton (mid year with many early features) 1933 "V8" Closed-Cab Pickup Truck (originally a Model B, 4 Cylinder dating to May, 1933)

12-12-2022, 10:37 PM	#11
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: Cluster bearing solution? There are those (myself included) who leave out the "spacer" normally used between the long bearing and the short bearing in the cluster gear. Instead the space is filled with THREE bearings. I can't remember if the three are three shorts, two shorts and a long, or two longs and a short. I think the last. Still, bad bearings are bad bearings. Perhaps more reduces the loading, but also increases the chance of failure of one by 1/3rd. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.

12-13-2022, 02:30 AM	#14
john charlton Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 1,304	Re: Cluster bearing solution? Luckily I never ever throw anything away so I have enough good used Hyatt spiral roller bearings in stock . I am rebuilding the front end of a 1930 AA truck . I needed the T 105 king pin thrust bearing . I found that they are no longer made by Timken ,Skf or Bower . and are no longer cataloged . I was lucky to find one supplier who had several hundred in stock . Sammy at Arizona Model A has NOS AA king pins but no bearings so I have bought him a whole bunch of bearings to bring out when I visit with him in late Jan . Anyone needing king pins and bearings so call him .I think the bushes are the same as wrist pin bushings . To cut to the chase can anyone tell me the part number for the Hyatt or compatible bearing I might get lucky here in England .I will let you know . John in freezing Suffolk County England .

12-13-2022, 07:00 PM	#15
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: Cluster bearing solution? It's not possible to tell "which" of the bearings that Snyder currently offers from the pix. I suspect given the "stand-apart" followed by three rollers that this is the bearing with the "nubs" on the ends of the rollers. If that is the case then this is not the right one. The pix might not be the right pix. The bearing clones are close enough in general appearance so Snyders might not be sensitive to the detail. A swipe with a file on the end-circle might tell you all you need to know (hardened v. unhardened.) Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.

12-14-2022, 08:52 AM	#17
nkaminar Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Western North Carolina Posts: 3,900	Re: Cluster bearing solution? I don't have the dimensions handy but see if you can find the right sleeve bearing here: Perhaps substitute several shorter ones for a longer one? https://www.mcmaster.com/bearings/mu...ve-bearings-8/ __________________ A is for apple, green as the sky. Step on the gas, for tomorrow I die. Forget the brakes, they really don't work. The clutch always sticks, and starts with a jerk. My car grows red hair, and flies through the air. Driving's a blast, a blast from the past.

12-14-2022, 09:38 AM	#18
Dino's A Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: Arcadia, Ca. Posts: 251	Re: Cluster bearing solution? Since I'm a Military jeep owner ( yes, it's a Ford!) I'm used to using bronze bushings. Although the T-84 transmission used is not the strongest transmission, Bronze bushings in their cluster gave little and rare trouble. nkamiar-I was thinking of the same guys-McMaster-Carr as the place to get bushings. I have dealt with them before, if you ever re bushed a Zenith throttle body they have the correct bushings as well. We all know the real fear here: Pulling the motor or rear end out to do something over again in such a short period of time really stinks!

12-14-2022, 09:40 AM	#19
jwmckenzie Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 213	Re: Cluster bearing solution? Here is a pic of an NORS bearing that I picked up at Hershey a few years ago. As 'Ordsgt' indicated, this bearing has the roller machined with a tip on the end that fits into the female hole on the end of the cage. The failed bearings I have seen have a recess cut into the roller and the cage has 'tips" stamped into the ends so that the male end is in the cage and the female end is in the roller. That said I have a Hyatt Bearing that is made with the male in the end cage and the female in the roller. it's a very well-made bearing, think I got it from Berts as a used bearing. Here is a pic, you can just barely make out 'HYATT-USA' As far as what Snyders has, I would call them if I needed bearings.

12-14-2022, 11:24 AM	#20
Joe K Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Cow Hampshire Posts: 4,188	Re: Cluster bearing solution? Someone elsewhere indicated that for the "teat/tip-roller" bearing, the cages can be either "hardened or unhardened." In the case of the unhardened circle, the pix showed the needle "wearing" into the circle - until it released. That may be the difference? Can you check the FOMOCO needle retainer circle to see if it is hardened? (I imagine it is. FOMOCO back in the day was like "Kenmore" was to a later generation of Sears Product buyers - fundamental but solid in its conception.) Snyder's you do get the advantage of "return if not satisfied for a full credit." Of course getting to that point can be its own challenge. Joe K __________________ Shudda kept the horse.