Slow engine turnover TEMPORARILY SOLVED I Have a new ?

[foxfire42]

My engine turns over very slowly when trying to start it. I checked the connections and they seem to be tight with no corrosion. My battery is fully charged (or was for awhile...LOL). It will turn over slow then get a burst then slow down again. On occasion the starter drive will disengage and spin out. I need to get the starter to turn faster. Could it be an inadequate ground between the motor and frame? What else can I check? the engine is a new rebuid as well as the starter (by unknown).

I followed most all the suggestions (if tools were avalible) including reseting the timing. It could have been a combination of timing and grounding. With the timing on target I bonded the frame with a temporary cable to the engine (#4) Now it turns over and the engine fires right up. The challenge now will be to fix it right. At least I can take it on `test runs and work on the other problems which I will be posting. This is a GREAT forum. I feel I have a world of mechanics at my fingertips. THANKS AGAIN....Barb

New question see post #13

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

This below is assuming you have used a crank to manually turn the engine and it is free of any excessive stiffness or mechanical issues. I usually start by feeling the starter wire just after a cranking episode and see how hot. Resistance equals heat.

One other thing is that grounds are our biggest headache here. Often time folks complain about slow starting and it traces back to over-restored surfaces such as the area on the flywheel housing where the starter is mounted being painted so the starter cannot obtain a good ground connection. The same happens getting the ground from the frame over to the engine. A short-term test would be to run a jumper lead from the ground post on the battery terminal over to a bolt on the transmission cover (shift tower) bolt to see if this helps anything. Maybe use a set of good--quality jumper cables and use a starter attaching bolt as one ground and then clamp the other end of the cables to the ground post on the batter to see if it helps anything.

.

[31Tudor]

If you know the starter and battery are truly good, be sure that you are using a 6 volt cable from the battery to starter and not a 12 volt cable. We had a similar sounding starter problem for years and I finally put on a 6 volt cable and the starter turnd the engine over fast. Finally fixed.

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

"QUICK" ground test: Key off, clip test light to gearshift, put pointy probe to top of battery ground post (+), crank starter for 5 seconds--------results: light on = poor grounding----light off = good grounding. Bill W.
(Play around & experiment with your test light, it can be "man's best friend" in quick testing of many electrical problems!)

[zzlegend]

31 Tudor said it right. 6 volt systems need a larger or beefer cable. I put a 1/0 cables on my 54 chevy and it helped alot. Plus good clean grounds.

[ctlikon0712]

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Also if the starter cable is older, I’ve seen corrosion inside the insulation, down inside even, that caused heat and resistance just as Brent and the others have said. Another quick check is to take the starter switch apart on the starter and make sure the two contacts are clean and redress them with a Smooth file or 150 grit paper.

[Gary WA]

Age of the battery? May charge up but not enough cranking amps. 6 volt battery life span approx 3yrs. unless you keep a maintainer on it.

[newshirt]

Another idea: Is your timing too advanced? Your starter could be working against a firing cylinder, or even bucking back as it fires. This gets even worse with a high compression head.

[Ken B]

Any chance of a bent starter shaft? Or, the ring gear isn't completely on the flywheel?

[BILL WILLIAMSON]

Worn starter bushings may allow armature to touch field retainer plates causing shorting and excessive amperage draw. Inexpensive induction ammeters that just lay against the cables are a great diagnostic tool. Available in a couple of sizes. Small one can test charging output, or current draw to anything on the car. Bill W.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I was going to mention the timing also, but Ray beat me to it. Just try cranking with the key OFF and if it cranks faster then your timing is too advanced.

Easy check for bad spots as Brent said is to feel all connections after several seconds of cranking. A poor connection will be hot.

[old1928fordguy]

Check the starter bolts. If one is not a real starter bolt/correct length it will drag on the flywheel,or it does not have a lock washer.It can drag a little or can somtimes lock the engine up. Just a thought as you said it was a new install.

[foxfire42]

So, now that it's working if only for test driving, how do I solve the bonding more correctly? With the rubber pad set on the rear motor mounts insulating the motor from the frame where does adequate bonding of the frame and motr occure?

[1930artdeco]

What I did with mine is attach a cable to the shifter tower, use a brand new 6V battery cable and she works fine. The ground is accomplished through the bolts from the motor mounts back to the battery. Just make sure there is no corrosion on the battery terminal or any grounding points.

Mike

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by 1930artdeco

What I did with mine is attach a cable to the shifter tower, use a brand new 6V battery cable and she works fine. The ground is accomplished through the bolts from the motor mounts back to the battery. Just make sure there is no corrosion on the battery terminal or any grounding points.

Mike

Mike, the problem is that I think Barb's vehicle is probably a fine-point car where running that cable is not realy an option.

Barb, originally the engine pans were one of the major areas of grounding came from. That followed by the the ground flowing through the frame rails to the crossmembers, and traveling from there through the springs down through the spring hangers (shackles) through the axles up the radius rods (and torque tube) into the transmission, and into the flywheel housing and into the starter. <whew> The problem is again that we generally over-restore by over-painting all these contact areas thus eliminating the ability for electricity to flow. Your mission is to figure out a way to get the current to start flowing again.

[foxfire42]

I beieve the engine pans were powder coated . I have a nice set of painted originals on the shelf up in WA that would be an easy switch as long as I make sure the paint is "missing" at the bolt locations. That hardly seems like enough contact from frame to engine to increase DC flow. Paint is sure the enemy in this situation. Maybe I should just suck it up and drop the rear end out of the frame and make sure I can get good spring to frame connection. That may be the ultimate solution. SIGH.....

[Marco Tahtaras]

I'm not quite clear on what you did. Are you still using the original battery to center cross member ground strap and simply added a SEPARATE strap to bridge from the engine to elsewhere on the frame?

[pat in Santa Cruz]

might it be possible to sneak a wide strip of copper between the motor mount rubber and the frame contacting both the mount and frame? By bending it around the rubber at the top, it would be concealed inside the frame and not visible. Clean all the frame and mount contact points as well as where the engine bolts seat on the mount. That should provide a good bond. You could use dielectric grease to prevent rust in there.

[Tom Wesenberg]

I've never worried about an engine ground and never had a problem with the stock setup. If the engine doesn't have a good ground, one path can be through the fuel line, so if that gets HOT, now you know why. Another path can be through bearings, and that's not good either. When I worked at the GM dealership I had to replace the rear tranny bearing on a 70's automatic due to that being the ground path for the engine.

[foxfire42]

Marco, I crimped ends on a heavy stranded copper wire and ran it from a bolt on the starter to the bolt securing the positive battery cable to the crossmember. Apparently it was just what the starter needed at least for now.

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

Marco, I crimped ends on a heavy stranded copper wire and ran it from a bolt on the starter to the bolt securing the positive battery cable to the crossmember. Apparently it was just what the starter needed at least for now.

Ok this is a long shot, but you've messed with the ground strap connection at the cross member. Leave it exactly as is but disconnect the other end from the starter and try it again. If it turns slow again be sure there is plenty of bare metal where the starter contacts the flywheel housing.

Every other point of contact should work itself out in just few miles of driving.

[steve s]

Go to an auto parts store and get a short braided grounding strap--maybe a foot long. Attach one end to the positive battery clamp bolt using a 2nd nut; attach the other end to the closest bolt on the transmission. That will provide a plenty direct path to the starter mounting holes. Simple, cheap, easy to undo, and not too ugly.

Steve

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by steve s

Go to an auto parts store and get a short braided grounding strap--maybe a foot long. Attach one end to the positive battery clamp bolt using a 2nd nut; attach the other end to the closest bolt on the transmission. That will provide a plenty direct path to the starter mounting holes. Simple, cheap, easy to undo, and not too ugly.

Steve

Hey Steve, look at the first paragraph in post #15 of this thread. Are you of the opinion we/she could do this and it would remain obscure enough to pass in fine-point competitions?

[steve s]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

Marco, I crimped ends on a heavy stranded copper wire and ran it from a bolt on the starter to the bolt securing the positive battery cable to the crossmember. Apparently it was just what the starter needed at least for now.

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Mike, the problem is that I think Barb's vehicle is probably a fine-point car where running that cable is not realy an option. ...

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

Hey Steve, look at the first paragraph in post #15 of this thread. Are you of the opinion we/she could do this and it would remain obscure enough to pass in fine-point competitions?

Brent,

I did notice that. I also noticed that the fine-point issue was not raised by the owner, but a "probably" speculated by someone else. Also, I noticed that she has apparently already opted to run another wire up to the starter, which judges could not miss; the grounding strap I suggested at least isn't in your face unless you are seriously on your back under the car, or you've pulled the carpeting back, removed the battery access plate, and got down on your knees to see if there's anything incorrect off on the edges. But, I've never been involved in fine point judging.

My impression is that the car has Float-A-Motors and the lady was primarily interested in getting the car running reliably: "With the rubber pad set on the rear motor mounts insulating the motor from the frame where does adequate bonding of the frame and motr occure?"

Steve

[Marco Tahtaras]

Originally Posted by steve s

Brent,

I did notice that. I also noticed that the fine-point issue was not raised by the owner, but a "probably" speculated by someone else. Also, I noticed that she has apparently already opted to run another wire up to the starter, which judges could not miss;

I understood Barb to say she added the extra cable as a test. She then indicated she wants to repair it correctly. Whether it's for judging or just personal satisfaction it's a moot point in my opinion.

While it isn't uncommon for folks to opt for all kinds of "fixes" to make or keep their cars roadworthy, Barb clearly isn't choosing that path.

[foxfire42]

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The guess is correct about it being a Blue Ribbon Vehicle. Although it may not be entered again. I don't want to be faced with unfixing and refixing fixes should I choose to enter her one more time. It did not fair very well in the start and idle so that's one reason, besides I don't want to embarrass myself should I take her to a local show and have to have help from the "boys" to push start me.

[theHIGHLANDER]

You got some good advice regarding the grounding and it's path. I might tend to agree with a well concealed additional ground, and I can probably go out and look at my PU to see where you could do it. Now I reference Packards often, and I'll do it again. All of them had an additional ground strap that bonded the motor mounts to a chassis ground. Barring that path, the other option is to be sure that at least 1/2 of the OEM Model A motor mount bolts and spacers are seeing the same bare steel that the battery ground strap sees. it might mean some deeper digging, but that's a real key to good electrical, good grounds. I almost ALWAYS employ a hidden star washer and some grease under anything in a ground path. Once done, I don't like to re-do, and they seem to be a fine answer, even on a fine point resoration. You can't see a star washer under a strap, and I've always said the day I go to a show where they make me disassemble my car for judging I QUIT!!

[foxfire42]

AWK! I hope none of the judging committee reads HIGHLANDER's last sentance. They may just like the idea.............

[BRENT in 10-uh-C]

Originally Posted by foxfire42

AWK! I hope none of the judging committee reads HIGHLANDER's last sentance. They may just like the idea.............

One thing I always hang my hat on is that a freshly restored Model-A should be just like a brand new Model-A was. Therefore if these extra/concealed cables weren't necessary back then, ...why now??

[steve s]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

... if these extra/concealed cables weren't necessary back then, ...why now??

can you say, powder coating?

[pat in Santa Cruz]

I usually use the extra strap from the cross member ground bolt to a trans top bolt. But on a high point car, that will not work. I suggested a hidden ground strap on the motor mount only because Barb said her engine pans were powder coated. That would be a lot of work, but would be hidden.

With a clean contact between the frame and bolt, pan and nuts and oil pan bolts, the ground should be good, assuming the cross member contact is clean too. Perhaps a little dremel work where the nuts and bolt heads touch the pan and frame or where the pan contacts the frame (which would be hidden) might do it with less effort than pulling the motor mount..

[montanajohn]

Two comments. First, in wiring the breaker panel in my house, the main feed into the building is a large aluminum cable that connects to a copper bus bar at the panel. Aluminum is very prone to oxidizing and causing resistance and heat. That's why there are few old trailer homes -- they have all burned-up because of aluminum wiring that they can no longer use. I smeared the connection (power off) with an anti-oxidant goop, as per code. Maybe that would help make better grounds on my Model-A. Haven't tried it yet. Second, I had a car whose starter would go dead if I drove even a few miles, parked, and tried to start it. The starter was near the exhaust pipe. The armature bushing would heat-up, and was worn enough so that when it expanded just a few thousandths, the armature would drop down and short out. When the engine cooled, the bushing would contract and lift the armature, and the car would start. It took a while plus some new bad word combinations to figure that out.

[James Rogers]

Originally Posted by montanajohn

Two comments. First, in wiring the breaker panel in my house, the main feed into the building is a large aluminum cable that connects to a copper bus bar at the panel. Aluminum is very prone to oxidizing and causing resistance and heat. That's why there are few old trailer homes -- they have all burned-up because of aluminum wiring that they can no longer use. I smeared the connection (power off) with an anti-oxidant goop, as per code. Maybe that would help make better grounds on my Model-A. Haven't tried it yet. Second, I had a car whose starter would go dead if I drove even a few miles, parked, and tried to start it. The starter was near the exhaust pipe. The armature bushing would heat-up, and was worn enough so that when it expanded just a few thousandths, the armature would drop down and short out. When the engine cooled, the bushing would contract and lift the armature, and the car would start. It took a while plus some new bad word combinations to figure that out.

John, if you have this conversation with a qualified electrician he will tell you, in no short order, AC electricity reacts to aluminum differently than DC current. DC current is very prone to corrosion at contact points, where as AC current is not. Mobile homes are no more susceptible to fire than stick built homes. The reason most don't last as long as stick built is, they are built as disposable homes and most are never set on permanent foundations leading to disintegration and rot from underneath. There are probably less mobile home fires than fires in conventional home fires.

[theHIGHLANDER]

Originally Posted by BRENT in 10-uh-C

One thing I always hang my hat on is that a freshly restored Model-A should be just like a brand new Model-A was. Therefore if these extra/concealed cables weren't necessary back then, ...why now??

I agree 100% regarding extra cables. It really shouldn't be needed, but when you've purchased that really well done car that can score high but you didn't do the work, and from A to Z that ground path is considered in your own personal approach, what do you do? Re-restore just because? I wouldn't. I'd solve the case and move forward, and enjoy the car and the rest of it's quality. I had a client who puchased a high end sport phaeton, something around $210K, and it was beautiful. Less than the cost to restore, but that hot start-slow start-dead battery syndrome. Between the missing small ground straps, excess pint at the starter hole and on the starter, the too small battery because the actual size wasn't available any longer...

So in essense, if you consider it from the start (no pun intended) the issue never shows up. And star washers, wasn't there a conversation about individual craftsmanship not long ago? To my way of thinking, adding some additional grip at a ground to ensure a long lasting contact and a schmutz of grease to repel corrosion...