The Ford Barn

Tony Burdett · 02-28-2022, 08:28 AM

Does anyone know if the gears in a 3 speed side loader gearbox are interchangeable with a top loader

cas3 · 02-28-2022, 12:13 PM

For the most part, yes they interchange up until the obvious differences with the 49 & up open drive car boxes. Its best to use the whole gear set, or at least have Mac Vp's book to start mixing up parts

Tony Burdett · 02-28-2022, 01:09 PM

I want to put the whole gear set from a 1951 F1 column change into a 1950 floor change housing, I haven’t bought the column change box yet but will if it is the same internally

alanwoodieman · 02-28-2022, 10:08 PM

there is a big change in the gear boxes during that period--I would check with Mac Van Pelt to make sure it will work

Tony Burdett · 03-01-2022, 03:36 AM

I’ve emailed them but not had a reply. Reading their small print they don’t give advice so that avenue is closed to me.It’s a pity I can’t find someone that has done it.

Mart · 03-01-2022, 07:01 AM

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There was a change to the gear design and this makes mixing parts from earlier and later gearboxes a problem.
But if both boxes are open drive, (as f1 boxes are) then the complete guts of one can be fitted into another. All parts need to be kept together as a set.
Mart.

chap52 · 03-01-2022, 07:07 AM

Mac has the parts and the diagrams to deal with your tranny project. I would replace every bearing and seal if I was rebuilding/modifying a transmission while I had it on my bench. Mac is a very gracious helpful man and if he has a moment will discuss your quest with you.
Years ago, I was replacing a clutch, etc. and Mac was kind enough to speak with me and help me in choosing all of the parts and pieces I would need.
Worth actually calling on the phone. Many of us have picked his brain for a long time... I will say it for us all, "Thanks Mac..." Chap His # (513) 943-9486

Mac VP · 03-01-2022, 07:17 AM

Actually I did reply to the gentleman’s email. He may want to check his suspect folder….

His question has also been fairly well answered here, to the extent that it can be. The information provided by him is a bit limited, which is not his fault. I’ve learned a long time ago that transmissions are not always what people thought they are. Gears have been swapped for a long time and it could be easy to give faulty advice based on an assumption.

ponymare · 03-01-2022, 07:26 AM

I think on 48 or 49 they changed the spline twist on the low, reverse sliding gear and output shaft.

Tim Ayers · 03-01-2022, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mac VP

Actually I did reply to the gentleman’s email. He may want to check his suspect folder….

His question has also been fairly well answered here, to the extent that it can be. The information provided by him is a bit limited, which is not his fault. I’ve learned a long time ago that transmissions are not always what people thought they are. Gears have been swapped for a long time and it could be easy to give faulty advice based on an assumption.

Thanks for following up, Mac.

Tony Burdett · 03-02-2022, 04:26 AM

I’m sorry if I’ve done you a dis service but I’ve checked and re checked my emails and can’t find any communication between us my emails is - [email protected]
I want to swap the whole gear train from one box to another if that’s possible. Would the output spline to the prop shaft be identical ?

rotorwrench · 03-02-2022, 11:52 AM

1951 was the change over year for transmissions. You won't know what you have till you open up the side shifter gearbox. I believe the later type gears will fit in an early box but the whole set has to be changed if it is the new design. There is a lot of interchangeability in the older design gears. Open drive to open drive should be a direct change. It's when you use a closed drive gearbox that you run into the shafting differences. Get Mac VP's book before getting in too deep. It will answer nearly all questions that may arise.

tubman · 03-02-2022, 12:35 PM

I think the big question here is whether the side shift transmissions in F1's are like a the contemporary car transmissions or more like a '40-'48 Ford units. I really don't know, but someone must.

Anyway, if they are similar to the later car transmissions, the answer is "NO", if they are like the earlier car transmissions, the answer is probably "YES".

cas3 · 03-02-2022, 02:29 PM

Yes, it boils down to them both being a "78" case. Found cast into the case on the lower rear end of the case. All the guts from one into the other. I do not know if output splines change any where in those years, but that should be easy to change a yoke if necessary

rotorwrench · 03-02-2022, 07:33 PM

The Ford cars changed over to the narrow pattern Borg Warner design in 1948. The Mercury cars had a new open drive case but they still used the old style gears up until the change in February or so of 1951. In the 1951 change, the Ford & Mercury cars started to interchange more transmission parts. The pickups mostly still used the top shift open drive but changed gears in 1951 and then also changed transmissions just before the F100 or 100 series trucks came out. A lot changed in 1953 with the new design 100 series trucks.

02-28-2022, 08:28 AM	#1
Tony Burdett Member Join Date: Nov 2021 Location: Gloucestershire U/K Posts: 32	F1 gearbox Does anyone know if the gears in a 3 speed side loader gearbox are interchangeable with a top loader

02-28-2022, 12:13 PM	#2
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,578	Re: F1 gearbox For the most part, yes they interchange up until the obvious differences with the 49 & up open drive car boxes. Its best to use the whole gear set, or at least have Mac Vp's book to start mixing up parts Last edited by cas3; 02-28-2022 at 12:15 PM. Reason: add

02-28-2022, 01:09 PM	#3
Tony Burdett Member Join Date: Nov 2021 Location: Gloucestershire U/K Posts: 32	Re: F1 gearbox I want to put the whole gear set from a 1951 F1 column change into a 1950 floor change housing, I haven’t bought the column change box yet but will if it is the same internally

02-28-2022, 10:08 PM	#4
alanwoodieman Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: upstate SC Posts: 2,964	Re: F1 gearbox there is a big change in the gear boxes during that period--I would check with Mac Van Pelt to make sure it will work

03-01-2022, 03:36 AM	#5
Tony Burdett Member Join Date: Nov 2021 Location: Gloucestershire U/K Posts: 32	Re: F1 gearbox I’ve emailed them but not had a reply. Reading their small print they don’t give advice so that avenue is closed to me.It’s a pity I can’t find someone that has done it.

03-01-2022, 07:01 AM	#6
Mart Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Solihull, England. Posts: 8,755	Re: F1 gearbox Sponsored Links (Register now to hide all advertisements) There was a change to the gear design and this makes mixing parts from earlier and later gearboxes a problem. But if both boxes are open drive, (as f1 boxes are) then the complete guts of one can be fitted into another. All parts need to be kept together as a set. Mart.

03-01-2022, 07:07 AM	#7
chap52 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Marana Arizona Posts: 1,776	Re: F1 gearbox Mac has the parts and the diagrams to deal with your tranny project. I would replace every bearing and seal if I was rebuilding/modifying a transmission while I had it on my bench. Mac is a very gracious helpful man and if he has a moment will discuss your quest with you. Years ago, I was replacing a clutch, etc. and Mac was kind enough to speak with me and help me in choosing all of the parts and pieces I would need. Worth actually calling on the phone. Many of us have picked his brain for a long time... I will say it for us all, "Thanks Mac..." Chap His # (513) 943-9486

03-01-2022, 07:17 AM	#8
Mac VP Senior Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,361	Re: F1 gearbox Actually I did reply to the gentleman’s email. He may want to check his suspect folder…. His question has also been fairly well answered here, to the extent that it can be. The information provided by him is a bit limited, which is not his fault. I’ve learned a long time ago that transmissions are not always what people thought they are. Gears have been swapped for a long time and it could be easy to give faulty advice based on an assumption. __________________ VANPELT SALES LLC Cincinnati, Ohio Office: 513-724-9486 www.vanpeltsales.com www.classictransmission.com

03-01-2022, 07:26 AM	#9
ponymare Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Posts: 160	Re: F1 gearbox I think on 48 or 49 they changed the spline twist on the low, reverse sliding gear and output shaft.

03-02-2022, 04:26 AM	#11
Tony Burdett Member Join Date: Nov 2021 Location: Gloucestershire U/K Posts: 32	Re: F1 gearbox I’m sorry if I’ve done you a dis service but I’ve checked and re checked my emails and can’t find any communication between us my emails is - [email protected] I want to swap the whole gear train from one box to another if that’s possible. Would the output spline to the prop shaft be identical ?

03-02-2022, 11:52 AM	#12
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: F1 gearbox 1951 was the change over year for transmissions. You won't know what you have till you open up the side shifter gearbox. I believe the later type gears will fit in an early box but the whole set has to be changed if it is the new design. There is a lot of interchangeability in the older design gears. Open drive to open drive should be a direct change. It's when you use a closed drive gearbox that you run into the shafting differences. Get Mac VP's book before getting in too deep. It will answer nearly all questions that may arise.

03-02-2022, 12:35 PM	#13
tubman Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Minnesota, Florida Keys Posts: 10,320	Re: F1 gearbox I think the big question here is whether the side shift transmissions in F1's are like a the contemporary car transmissions or more like a '40-'48 Ford units. I really don't know, but someone must. Anyway, if they are similar to the later car transmissions, the answer is "NO", if they are like the earlier car transmissions, the answer is probably "YES".

03-02-2022, 02:29 PM	#14
cas3 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: sw minnesota Posts: 4,578	Re: F1 gearbox Yes, it boils down to them both being a "78" case. Found cast into the case on the lower rear end of the case. All the guts from one into the other. I do not know if output splines change any where in those years, but that should be easy to change a yoke if necessary

03-02-2022, 07:33 PM	#15
rotorwrench Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas Posts: 16,440	Re: F1 gearbox The Ford cars changed over to the narrow pattern Borg Warner design in 1948. The Mercury cars had a new open drive case but they still used the old style gears up until the change in February or so of 1951. In the 1951 change, the Ford & Mercury cars started to interchange more transmission parts. The pickups mostly still used the top shift open drive but changed gears in 1951 and then also changed transmissions just before the F100 or 100 series trucks came out. A lot changed in 1953 with the new design 100 series trucks.